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Topic:
The End of Posse Comitatus
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Mastadge
Title:
Manager Emeritus
Registered:
Jun '99
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Date Posted:
9/26 2:57pm
Subject:
The End of Posse Comitatus
- Date Edited:
9/26 2:57pm (1 edits total)
Edited By:
Mastadge
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Sorry if this has already been discussed elsewhere and I overlooked it, but I'm curious how people here feel about it.
The Posse Comitatus Act was a law passed in 1878 limiting the use of the military (the Coast Guard being an exception) as domestic law enforcement. NorthCom was created in 2002, as a part of the response to 9/11. The Military Commissions Act of 2006 pretty much undid the effects of Posse Comitatus for NorthCom, and now, on October 1, a brigade is being deployed in America.
The timing of this as well as the purported equipping of this brigade with experimental non-lethal weapons and the assertion that they "may be called upon to help with civil unrest and crowd control" has some people, erm, very concerned.
But then, much of me internet news is brought to me by a very histrionic part of the blogosphere, and I'd like to see some more balanced thoughts on this.
Links:
NorthCom
Why is a U.S. Army brigade being assigned to the "Homeland"?
Dispatches From Torture Nation
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Jabbadabbado
Title: Senate Floor Moderator
Registered:
Mar '99
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Date Posted:
9/26 3:13pm
Subject:
RE: The End of Posse Comitatus
- Date Edited:
9/26 3:13pm (1 edits total)
Edited By:
Jabbadabbado
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Was this the law that helped bring about the end of reconstruction in the South? When the federal government abandoned southern blacks to the whims of apartheid state governments for nearly a century?
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DarthBoba
Registered:
Jun '00
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Date Posted:
9/26 3:54pm
Subject:
RE: The End of Posse Comitatus
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I'm not sure.
But, the active military has always been able to be sent to quell domestic uprising, and usually, Presidents have made good use of this, such as forcing desegration and intervening in the LA Riots in 1992.
Not to mention that a single brigade hardly equals military occupation. That's 3,600 soldiers. More than a few police departments are bigger than that. 
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Raven
Title:
SFF: Books and Comics Mangler
Registered:
Oct '98
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Date Posted:
9/26 4:12pm
Subject:
RE: The End of Posse Comitatus
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The problem, as I see it, isn't military being deployed on US soil. That's been something Congress has allowed as needed for two hundred years. The problem is that it's a power that's been moved firmly into the hands of the President, Congress seemingly happy to give up the power. Feel free to draw historical comparisons between this act and similar acts in other countries.
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DarthBoba
Registered:
Jun '00
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Date Posted:
9/26 4:25pm
Subject:
RE: The End of Posse Comitatus
- Date Edited:
9/26 4:33pm (1 edits total)
Edited By:
DarthBoba
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Again, it's a single brigade, armed with nonlethal weapons no less. That's hardly a military occupation force; that's about the number of soldiers & Marines that went to LA in 92. It's simply not enough to change the US into a military dictatorship. If anything, it's a sensible re-allocation of resources, instead of any active-army unit also being required to be ready for civil disturbance/disaster relief missions, like we are now, there's a brigade specifically for things like that. It's not pseudo-Empire; it's a sensible allocation of scarce resources from a source that's already overworked.
And just to point something out-the President hasn't necessarily sought Congress' OK to deploy troops inside the country, as in President Eisenhower's decision to send active-duty soldiers to Arkansas to enforce the Supreme Court ruling in that case.
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Neo-Paladin
Registered:
Dec '04
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Date Posted:
9/26 9:38pm
Subject:
RE: The End of Posse Comitatus
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They way you frame it, Boba, makes this seem fairly innocuous. If US troops have activities within the country on an ad hoc basis, that's one thing. Each decision be judged on its merits. Having a standing brigade seems like the end of an intentional divide between defense and law enforcement.
What has this bought us, and what is it's value? I'm not clear on that. On the other hand, the cost is opportunity for intimidation of dissenters, an expansion of executive power (there is no reason that one brigade couldn't become more, this is all at the president's discretion), and the end of a valuable divide in authority, missions, and capabilities. I for one think the price is too high for modest gains in 'efficiency'.
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Mr44
Registered:
May '02
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Date Posted:
9/27 11:40am
Subject:
RE: The End of Having a standing brigade seems like the end of an intentional divide between defense
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I'd like to make an observation about this last statement first:
Having a standing brigade seems like the end of an intentional divide between defense and law enforcement.
Not really though, because the 3ID's 1BCT doesn't have law enforcement authority. It does however, have specialized Nuclear/biological equipment and other technical packages that the US government can provide, but may be out of reach of most local/state governments.
Boba was dead on when he provided other examples. During the Rodney King riots, (collectively given the name "Garden Plot") the 7th Infantry Division was deployed into LA. However, the operational breakdown had troops assigned with an LAPD officer. Typically, a group of 10 troops would man checkpoints, etc.. in a zone assigned to a LAPD officer. In essence, the troops were "deputized" under their assigned police personnel.
Numerous examples like this are carried out all the time.
It's important to realize that Posse Comitatus doesn't prohibit the military from operating on US soil, it prevents the military from acting as its own law enforcement agency.
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Neo-Paladin
Registered:
Dec '04
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Date Posted:
9/27 2:44pm
Subject:
RE: The End of Posse Comitatus
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Mr44 posted:
I'd like to make an observation about this last statement first:
Having a standing brigade seems like the end of an intentional divide between defense and law enforcement.
Not really though, because the 3ID's 1BCT doesn't have law enforcement authority.
...
I see your point, but don't compleatly accept it. I've read that the "Defense Authorization Act of 2006" empowers the president to declare martial law should there be a terrorist incident or a short fall of public order. Granted, the DAA2006 limits the president's ability to declare martial law to events where the constitution is threatened, but the signing statment attached seems to indicate that defining such an event is completely at the executive office's discretion. Accepting this, it is only the matter of a declaration for the military to have full law enforcement authority.
I'm not scared of a police state yet (and I admit the American Conservative article I linked above is over the top), but I'm not convinced this is a necessary or net positive step either. Let me say clearly then, that this step has not been justified to the extent necessary to assuage my misgivings.
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Mr44
Registered:
May '02
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Date Posted:
9/27 3:00pm
Subject:
RE: The End of Posse Comitatus
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I'd just say that the concept of martial law has been around since the US was formed. No, the Constitution doesn't mention the exact phrase "martial law," but Art 1, Sec. 9 plainly spells out that he privilege of the Writ of Habeas Corpus shall not be suspended, unless when in Cases of Rebellion or Invasion, the public Safety may require it.
Clearly, even the framers of the Constitution recognized such a concept, as the idea of "when public safety may require it" is quite vague and undefined, but still mentioned in the Constitution from the time it was written. Of course, one can look to high profile, historical examples from Lincoln and Roosevelt to see examples of martial law that were completely Constitutional.
That's kind of the point, in that what has been linked to thus far doesn't represent any kind of new step, necessary or otherwise.
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Neo-Paladin
Registered:
Dec '04
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Date Posted:
9/27 3:57pm
Subject:
RE: The End of Posse Comitatus
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Well sure, Martial Law is a very old concept, but it seems clear the framers and most who followed wanted it to be a very rare occurrence that was difficult to realize. “A short fall of public order” is a very broad term, and by most gages is not infrequent in occurrence. Certainly more frequent than invasion or rebellion. It seems to me there has rarely been the desire let alone the need for the defense force to act as a law keeping force. It could become more frequent under the 'short fall of public order' threshold, and there is a brigade who's entire mission is acting in support of a civil authority. I am afraid that when you have a hammer in hand, ever problem looks like a nail. Why do we need a brigade to do what the national guard (under the control of the governors) has been doing for years? Frankly, I don't want to see the military regularly acting in response to protests, even illegal protest. Let the local authority have the authority over the civilian sphere.
To be clear: for me, the novelty is not the step, but the lowered threshold to that step being taken.
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Raven
Title:
SFF: Books and Comics Mangler
Registered:
Oct '98
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Date Posted:
9/27 5:03pm
Subject:
RE: The End of Posse Comitatus
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Mr44 posted:
That's kind of the point, in that what has been linked to thus far doesn't represent any kind of new step, necessary or otherwise.
I'd say it does represent a new step.
18 U.S.C. § 1385 posted:
Whoever, except in cases and under circumstances expressly authorized by the Constitution or Act of Congress, willfully uses any part of the Army or the Air Force as a posse comitatus or otherwise to execute the laws shall be fined under this title or imprisoned not more than two years, or both.
The only exception was if the President invoked the Insurrection Act of 1807. Section 1076 of the 2007 Defense Authorization Bill changes Sec. 333 of the "Insurrection Act." As that act was amended, it can be invoked "as a result of a natural disaster, epidemic, or other serious public health emergency, terrorist attack or incident, or other condition in any State or possession of the United States." So, as things stood with the passing of that bill, the President could deploy troops in a police capacity within America without needing the permission of Congress.
SEC. 1068 of HR 4986: National Defense Authorization Act for Fiscal Year 2008 repeals that change if I'm not mistaken, so this may be somewhat of a moot point. Right now, that military brigade may be stationed within America for use as a supplementary police force, but it's one that the President will need approval from Congress to be able to deploy.
Having said that: the issue as I see it isn't any huge concern that the current President will suddenly declare a military dictatorship. The issue is that it strips away some of the checks and balances inherit within the system, and whenever a check like that is stripped away it should be examined closely. To use perhaps an extreme example, if the executive branch was to be given the power to modify rulings of the judicial branch. It's no better than when the judicial branch attempts to create law rather than interpret it.
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Mr44
Registered:
May '02
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Date Posted:
9/27 7:15pm
Subject:
RE: The End of Posse Comitatus
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Yeah, I agree with your entire post.
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When you enter a room full of armed men, shoot the first person who makes a move-
hostile or otherwise
He has started to think and is therefore dangerous...
-- Colonel "Paddy" Mayne, co-founder of the SAS
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Mastadge
Title:
Manager Emeritus
Registered:
Jun '99
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Date Posted:
12/1 7:52am
Subject:
RE: The End of Posse Comitatus
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Food for thought: The U.S. military expects to have 20,000 uniformed troops inside the United States by 2011.
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DarthLowBudget
Registered:
Jan '04
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Date Posted:
12/1 8:59am
Subject:
RE: The End of Posse Comitatus
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Umm...doesn't this sound like something the American People should have some kind of say in? It really pisses me off when stuff like this flies under the radar, and doesn't get much press attention.
20,000 troops? Isn't all the stuff these guys are going to be used for supposed to be under the purview of each states' National Guard? I know the division between state and federal governments is pretty miniscule these days, but this doesn't exactly seem like a step in the right direction.
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DarthBoba
Registered:
Jun '00
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Date Posted:
12/1 9:08am
Subject:
RE: The End of Posse Comitatus
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DarthLowBudget posted:
Umm...doesn't this sound like something the American People should have some kind of say in? It really pisses me off when stuff like this flies under the radar, and doesn't get much press attention.
20,000 troops? Isn't all the stuff these guys are going to be used for supposed to be under the purview of each states' National Guard? I know the division between state and federal governments is pretty miniscule these days, but this doesn't exactly seem like a step in the right direction.
You mean, like all the genuinely important votes that go unreported for the most part?
And frankly, 20,000 combat-support soldiers who may be in the country at any given time isn't alot. If you read the entire article, you should've seen that their overseas commitment hasn't changed in the slightest; they just have additional duties when they're back here. They're not some occupation force or anything retarded like that; they're emergency specialists with skills the Guard doesn't begin to cover.
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goraq
Registered:
May '08
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Date Posted:
12/1 9:14am
Subject:
RE: The End of Posse Comitatus
- Date Edited:
12/1 9:16am (1 edits total)
Edited By:
goraq
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,,20,000 troops? Isn't all the stuff these guys are going to be used for supposed to be under the purview of each states' National Guard? I know the division between state and federal governments is pretty miniscule these days, but this doesn't exactly seem like a step in the right direction. ,,
Is Obama backing it,against it,or he is just silent about it?
The man said lets have change,or something like it.
What did he mean by it,thats a difficult question.
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