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Topic:
Patriotism
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SuperWatto
Registered:
Sep '00
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Date Posted:
10/10 6:41am
Subject:
RE: Patriotism
- Date Edited:
10/10 6:49am (1 edits total)
Edited By:
SuperWatto
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Oh, well, obviously I'm not an expert and locals - most of all, local conscripts - would know better, but I was under the impression that in the interbellum and before WWI, the US just had a national guard. I stand corrected.
Anyway, let it be known that I don't think there's any relation between supporting an army and being patriotic. As far as I'm concerned, you can be a patriot and a pacifist and denounce any military action.
EDIT: Pelly, it's been a long time coming... Ever since the BRT turned into the VRT! After reading your write-up - which is a good piece, and I can agree with - I'm wondering: how do you see the future of Belgium?
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Alpha-Red
Registered:
Apr '04
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Date Posted:
10/10 7:52am
Subject:
RE: Patriotism
- Date Edited:
10/10 7:56am (1 edits total)
Edited By:
Alpha-Red
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I think the problem with patriotism is that too often it spills over into what can only be described as fascism. I mean supporting your country is one thing, but doing so unconditionally and without any heed to moral restraint is outright wrong.
We only need to look to history to see the consequences of such attitudes. In years prior to WWII, Japan's internal politics involved a struggle between the militarists and moderates, with the the former deciding that Japan needed to use military force to acquire a more powerful strategic position in the world. The moderates said no, and basically the militarists painted them as being traitors and unpatriotic. And they assassinated pretty much anyone that got in their way too. They go to war, they commit genocide, crimes against humanity, they tell their soldiers to kill and beat prisoners, and to fight to the last man, all for the sake of their country.
Granted that's an extreme example, but when I see my own country emulating the very worst of humanity instead of standing up for its principles, I think that casts some doubt as to what we really are.
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LtNOWIS
Registered:
May '05
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Date Posted:
10/10 5:56pm
Subject:
RE: Patriotism
- Date Edited:
10/10 5:57pm (1 edits total)
Edited By:
LtNOWIS
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SuperWatto posted:
Why would that be bad?
A hundred years ago, the US didn't have a permanent army. Was everybody wrong, then? And why should this be a taboo now?
Per DarthBoba . The Army has been around since 1775. There was a brief period in the 1700s when it went down to like 40 men, and it wasn't very large in the early 1900s, but it's always been around. We have a handful of regular Army regiments that are 200+ years old.
MASTERPRENN posted:
You can't define people by what they don't say about themselves. If I don't have an anti-racism bumper sticker on my car, are you going to assume I'm a racist, or at least don't really care about racism in America? That would be silly.
Well, that seems to be a pretty serious logical blow to my argument.
GrandAdmiralPelleaon posted:
I think a partial reason for that is, as is mentioned in the article, that patriotism in the USA is bound more by the 'idea' that is supposed to be the USA. Americans like to think that the USA represents a set of values and base their patriotism on those values, even if they do not always agree what exactly the values are.
Most Americans do, I believe. And American values certainly are important.
As I said though, I may be the exception, but I base my patriotism on geographic/identity issues, not ideology.
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Jabbadabbado
Title: Senate Floor Moderator
Registered:
Mar '99
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Date Posted:
10/13 11:01am
Subject:
RE: Patriotism
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Jorg Haider died in a car crash over the weekend. He was the face of Austrian nationalism for many years. His party and a competing nationalist/anti-immigration party, the FPO, had very strong results in the recent Austrian elections.
It will be interesting to see what happens to Haider's political movement now that he's gone.
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America - where such a thing happens."
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Jedi_Keiran_Halcyon
Registered:
Dec '00
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Date Posted:
10/13 11:34am
Subject:
RE: Patriotism
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My patriotism tends to be based on my views of the American citizenry. The more intent the people of this nation seem to be on improving our country and the world in general, the more patriotic I feel.
When the people of this country elect (sort of) Dubya, allow him to carry out a ludicrous war in Iraq, and elect him again (for reals this time), my patriotism goes down, to the point of almost yearning for some other nation to seize the mantle of "superpower" from us.
If the people of this country elect Obama next month, my patriotism will go up. If we elect McCain, then we deserve to reap what we've sown.
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MASTERPRENN
Title: JCC Man.
Awesome
In Oklahoma until the 24th
Registered:
Dec '05
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Date Posted:
10/13 1:21pm
Subject:
RE: Patriotism
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SuperWatto posted:
Anyway, let it be known that I don't think there's any relation between supporting an army and being patriotic. As far as I'm concerned, you can be a patriot and a pacifist and denounce any military action.
As a pacifist, I'm not sure I agree with you here. Being patriotic entails wanting the best for your particular nation-state, and I can't think of any case where complete pacifism would be beneficial to any modern country. For a nation to be powerful and prosperous in this world (let alone survive), it has to have a military. This doesn't mean that to be patriotic you have to support the all of the actions of your nation's military 100%, unthinkingly. But if you're genuinely concerned with the well being of your particular country, you've got to at least support the existence of a military, if even on a limited scale. At least that's how I see it.
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SuperWatto
Registered:
Sep '00
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Date Posted:
10/13 2:27pm
Subject:
RE: Patriotism
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Prenn posted:
As a pacifist, I'm not sure I agree with you here. Being patriotic entails wanting the best for your particular nation-state, and I can't think of any case where complete pacifism would be beneficial to any modern country.
The fact that you can't think of one doesn't mean no other pacifist can think of one. Not saying that I'm a pacifist, just saying there's more than one kind.
Prenn posted:
For a nation to be powerful and prosperous in this world (let alone survive), it has to have a military.
Who says a nation needs to be powerful? What's wrong with Liechtenstein?
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LtNOWIS
Registered:
May '05
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Date Posted:
10/15 12:50am
Subject:
RE: Patriotism
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Power means the ability to change things in the rest of the world, in order to advance nation's the self interests or ideals.
It also means the ability to deter those who would try to impose their will on the nation, or invade it.
For a nation like Lichtenstein, they can't really change much. If Nazi Germany had wanted to roll in, there would be no stopping them. But for bigger nations like France or Norway, a more capable military could've helped them resist invasion. Having the diplomatic power to stop things from getting to that situation is also good.
That's a dramatic example, but the fact remains that it's a rough world out there. Any nation with a stake in maritime trade, for example, should be concerned by piracy in Somalia. But it takes strength to be able to deter such banditry.
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goraq
Registered:
May '08
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Date Posted:
10/15 6:40am
Subject:
RE: Patriotism
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How does the youth fit in into these wars and competitions.
Is the nation state truly a driving force for them?
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MASTERPRENN
Title: JCC Man.
Awesome
In Oklahoma until the 24th
Registered:
Dec '05
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Date Posted:
10/17 8:33am
Subject:
RE: Patriotism
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The fact that you can't think of one doesn't mean no other pacifist can think of one. Not saying that I'm a pacifist, just saying there's more than one kind.
I suppose...but can anybody think of one? Have we ever seen one exist? These are the important questions, and I think it's quite worth exploring. Can you guys think of any circumstances in which complete non-violence would be beneficial to a nation-state, and would allow them to keep their standard of living and sovereignty, etc.?
Who says a nation needs to be powerful? What's wrong with Liechtenstein?
You'll notice in my parenthesis, I put "let alone survive". For a nation-state to survive in this world as an independent nation-state, (the kind towards which patriotism would be directed), I would argue that it has to have some sort of military ability, which would contradict true pacifism.
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Kimball_Kinnison
Registered:
Oct '01
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Date Posted:
10/17 11:46am
Subject:
RE: Patriotism
- Date Edited:
10/17 11:47am (1 edits total)
Edited By:
Kimball_Kinnison
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I've been thinking about this thread for quite some time, trying to find a way to describe what I think of as patriotism, when I found a song on my iPod that almost perfectly sums it up. It's called "I Believe in America", by Chris LeDoux:Chris LeDoux posted:
This country's seen some hard times, lord knows she's deep in debt.
She's comin' through another depression and for some it ain't over yet.
We've all been divided, playin' our own selfish games.
Why does it always take the hard times to get people back together again.
But I believe in America, I believe in America...
One nation under God, still proud and strong!
I believe in America, I'm proud to be in America,
Though I know in America we've gotta right some wrongs.
But I don't believe you can keep America down for long.
Now if you read the papers, or listen to the news these days.
Sometimes there don't look like there's much hope left for the good ole USA.
This country she ain't perfect, but thank God she's still free.
An' she's gonna make her comeback, yes sir, just you wait and see.
An' I believe in America, I believe in America...
One nation under God, still proud and strong!
I believe in America, I'm proud to be in America,
Though I know in America we gotta right some wrongs.
But I don't believe you can keep America down for long.
I believe in America, I believe in America...
One nation under God, still proud and strong!
I believe in America, I'm proud to be in America,
though I know in America we gotta right some wrongs.
But I don't believe you can keep America down for long.
To me, this song embodies what the true spirit of patriotism is. Patriotism isn't a matter of "My country, right or wrong". It's not blind support for your country, but neither is it constant criticism of your country either. It has been said that "dissent is the highest form of patriotism", but I disagree. Dissent in and of itself dos not define patriotism anymore than agreement does. It is defined by something else.
It is, quite simply, faith in your country. Faith in the principles and ideals upon which it is founded, and faith in its people.
I can honestly say that I believe in the people of the US. I believe in the political process. Personally, I'm not terribly worried about who wins this election, because I trust that both McCain and Obama genuinely have the best interests of the nation at heart, even if they disagree over what those interests actually are. I also have faith that if whoever is in power goes too far, that the people will rein them in one way or another.
But that faith cannot be shown while you look down your nose at your fellow citizens. When you denigrate, ridicule, or belittle your fellow citizens for their views or opinions, you betray a clear lack of faith in them. That, if anything, is the opposite of patriotism.
I am proud of my country, but that pride isn't patriotism - it's a side effect of patriotism. That pride is born from my faith in my fellow citizens, and in them I see many things to be proud of.
Kimball Kinnison
EDIT: That song was released in 1986, but it is every bit as true today.
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Why, Kimball... I didn't know you had it in you.- KW
I think that Kimball just made a joke, and a funny joke at that.- Raven
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LostOnHoth
Registered:
Feb '00
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Date Posted:
10/17 5:39pm
Subject:
RE: Patriotism
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Great post, KK - you summed up what I couldn't really articulate in words and so didn't post. I totally agree, with the exception of the "one nation under God" concept of course. 
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GrandAdmiralPelleaon
Registered:
Oct '00
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Date Posted:
10/18 9:27am
Subject:
RE: Patriotism
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SuperWatto posted:
EDIT: Pelly, it's been a long time coming... Ever since the BRT turned into the VRT! After reading your write-up - which is a good piece, and I can agree with - I'm wondering: how do you see the future of Belgium?
As long as we've got Brussels, I don't see any split coming soon. You can compare it with a couple staying together for the child. [Background: Brussels is a largely French speaking city that's placed squarely in Flemish-Brabant, a Dutch speaking province.]
I also laugh at the Walloons that claim they're going to secede with Brussels and join France. No way in hell that the capital of the EU is going to become a French city.
As for the above posts, you're talking about believing in the values that your country stands for. Now, that's all fine for the USA, but what do Hungary, Finland, Angola etc. stand for? Not every country is founded upon unique principles.
Also, who is to say what a country stands for?
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Kimball_Kinnison
Registered:
Oct '01
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Date Posted:
10/18 10:01am
Subject:
RE: Patriotism
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GrandAdmiralPelleaon posted:
As for the above posts, you're talking about believing in the values that your country stands for. Now, that's all fine for the USA, but what do Hungary, Finland, Angola etc. stand for? Not every country is founded upon unique principles.
Quite honestly, though, that wouldn't be my problem. You would need to talk to people from Hungary, Finland, Angola, etc. I was talking about what patriotism means to me.
Your mileage may vary.
Kimball Kinnison
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Why, Kimball... I didn't know you had it in you.- KW
I think that Kimball just made a joke, and a funny joke at that.- Raven
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Espaldapalabras
Registered:
Aug '05
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Date Posted:
10/18 1:12pm
Subject:
RE: Patriotism
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Kimball_Kinnison posted:
GrandAdmiralPelleaon posted:
As for the above posts, you're talking about believing in the values that your country stands for. Now, that's all fine for the USA, but what do Hungary, Finland, Angola etc. stand for? Not every country is founded upon unique principles.
Quite honestly, though, that wouldn't be my problem. You would need to talk to people from Hungary, Finland, Angola, etc. I was talking about what patriotism means to me.
Your mileage may vary.
Kimball Kinnison
I think this comes from the fact that American nationalism is ideologically based. Our common thread is our ideology, where other nations reley on ethic groups or common religion. The real question is if we can have patriotism if a country is divided between various nations.
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