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Author	Topic: pro-life or pro-choice?
AnakinsGirl Registered: Nov '01	Date Posted: 1/2/02 6:23pm Subject: RE: pro-life or pro-choice?
	happy late new years.
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No blasters! Registered: Feb '00	Date Posted: 1/4/02 2:34pm Subject: RE: pro-life or pro-choice?
	And best wishes for the new year. -----signature----- If you're going through Hell, keep going.
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FutureEmperor Registered: Jul '98	Date Posted: 1/4/02 3:36pm Subject: RE: pro-life or pro-choice?
	No Blasters! I've been around the block when it comes to views on abortion, and it IS a difficult philosophical issue. There are a few obstacles to rational discussion in this debate: 1)Misconceptions and propaganda that cloud our ability to really examine the issue. 2)Extremists who view any step in what they consider the wrong direction as a disaster. 3)Bizarre linkages and inconsistent philosophical views. 4)Political organization and competition above the ability to allow for reasoned individual stances. To critique the pro-life side first, I'd say that while religion also infused the abolitionists with vigor and indeed formed the basis of their views, it is too simplistic and insufficiently comprehensive to bring religion into the debate. It must be ONE of many arguments. Now, most knowledgeable pro-lifers are indeed equipped with new material. There's no understanding of abortion's history, nor much compromise it seems. Abortion wasn't something that was made legal with Roe v Wade, it was practiced as far back as history records. No, this does not render it moral, but it provides a context to the claims that are made. I'd also say the way that even morning-after pills are attacked as abortofacients is a bit bizarre. Surely, they'd prefer the likely chance that the egg would not be fertilized over an abortion during the 5th month of pregancy? Often though, the view is that as soon as the egg is fertilized it is sacred and one cannot risk even "abortofacients." That is just one side of the coin. Pro-choice leadership has shown a shocking disregard for the immorality of the partial birth abortion procedure. If a nine-month old baby can have its brains sucked out of its head and not move the moral compass of the pro-choice leadership, then it suffers from some serious lack of foresight and moral character. I'd say that I also have difficulty(this is more personal than anything else) that pro-choice groups and their advertisements speak so highly of "liberty" and "choice" about the right to terminate a life growing inside you, but are the SAME people(with some exceptions) that continually oppose liberty in every other aspect of the political arena. It rings hollow. I find it an interesting historical fact that the early women's suffrage movement leadership was almost completely pro-life(statements made by Stanton, Anthony and others.) Statements they have made would have rendered them excommunicated from the modern feminist/pro-choice organizations. I, for one, do not believe that the government should be in the business of invading the sovereignty of a person's body, man or woman. Yes, there is another life in there, but I think all pro-life arguments should focus on moral suasion and not legal coercion. I feel the same about the drug war, which is another invasion of the sovereignty of one's own life. A heroin user or a woman who gets an abortion in non-emergency circumstances in the late 2nd trimester may be committing immoral acts, but I don't think we should be locking them in prison. Pro-lifers should know that Brazil forbids abortion and there are more women who get abortions there than the US, in terms of proportion. -----signature----- When the seas and mountains fall And we come to end of days In the dark I hear a call Calling me there, I will go there And back again
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AnakinsGirl Registered: Nov '01	Date Posted: 1/11/02 11:17pm Subject: RE: pro-life or pro-choice?
	sighs i suppose ths thread is finally over? o well. good times.
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jedi-thespian Registered: Mar '01	Date Posted: 1/12/02 9:42pm Subject: RE: pro-life or pro-choice?
	Over? Don't count on it. I'm Pro-Life all of the way. I am against abortion in all situations. If a woman has "willing" sex, then she should except the consequences of her actions. If a woman is raped, she should be strong and not take it out on her baby. And even though it seems like the end of the world, what Satan works for evil, God can work it out for good. No Blasters!, about "unwanted" children... You obviously never saw that statistic that clearly shows that the number of "unwanted" children available for adoption was slightly less than the number of couples that wanted to adopt. You don't see anyone scrambling to help those in need? Well, that's another issue that I would enjoy bringing up but it is not the point of this discussion. And I may get banned for the things that I would say about certain fellow human beings. And I'm not talking about you. On another issue, perhaps you should look this Bible verse more closely: Exodus 21:22-23 "And if men struggle with each other and strike a woman with child so that she has a miscarriage, yet there is no further injury, he shall surely be fined as the woman's husband may demand of him; and he shall pay as the judges decide. But if there's any further injury, then you shall appoint as a penalty life for life." I myself did not notice how deep this sentence went until recently. I am sure that this "fine" that the woman's husband would often demand would probably not involve money, or livestock, or anything of the sort. I believe that if he wished, he could have fined the other man for his life. The judges would quite probably have no argument against it, and the sentence would be no different than if the woman had been killed as well. When a couple loses a baby, you'd be surprised how often the woman would say, "My baby's dead..." Not my fetus is dead or my embryo is dead. The husband would say, "We lost the baby..." Not we lost the fetus or we lost the embryo. God had that law formed that way for a reason. The woman's husband would not take that sort of wrong against him and his wife lightly. -----signature----- Meek is not weak... Fics on my bio... If you're born once, you die twice. If you're born twice, you die once... thespian, signing out
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No blasters! Registered: Feb '00	Date Posted: 1/13/02 7:50pm Subject: RE: pro-life or pro-choice? - Date Edited: 1/13/02 8:09pm (1 edits total) Edited By: No blasters!
	Yes, I've seen the statistic and know it to be true. So you're suggesting that all abused children are wanted? By your reckoning, all unwanted children get adopted out, but that doesn't explain the child abuse cases. Just because someone is incapable of taking care of a child doesn't mean they give them up for adoption. As for the Exodus passage, that is your interpretation of the word "fine". "Fine" generally does not mean "sentence to death", so I think your supposition is a bit of a stretch. As for the terms couples use to describe miscarriages, well of course they use that term. ("Baby".) You get no arguments from me there, but then, of course, we're talking about people who are thrilled to be parents and want to carry the pregnancy to term. Do women who have abortions talk about their "babies"? No. Semantics I think is the term... Finally, since we don't live in a theocracy, I'm not too concerned with passages from Exodus. (Though it curiously treats miscarriages differently than the death of a woman.) FE, yes I agree that reason and compromise are woefully absent from the national abortion debate. I suppose it's due to each side's fear of losing anything to the "opposition". -----signature----- If you're going through Hell, keep going.
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AnakinsGirl Registered: Nov '01	Date Posted: 1/13/02 8:17pm Subject: RE: pro-life or pro-choice?
	o good! maybe its just fading not disappearing altogether. may i restate that i am pro-life in all cases?
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No blasters! Registered: Feb '00	Date Posted: 1/14/02 5:11am Subject: RE: pro-life or pro-choice?
	At least pro life in all cases (which I strenuously object to) is a consistent theory. (Unlike the "against abortion in cases of rape and incest" argument which contradicts itself.) -----signature----- If you're going through Hell, keep going.
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jedi-thespian Registered: Mar '01	Date Posted: 1/19/02 11:05am Subject: RE: pro-life or pro-choice?
	Contradicts itself? How so? Every child created has a purpose, and that purpose is destroyed if the child is aborted. Like I said, what Satan meant for evil, God can turn it into good. -----signature----- Meek is not weak... Fics on my bio... If you're born once, you die twice. If you're born twice, you die once... thespian, signing out
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Obi-Wan McCartney Registered: Aug '99	Date Posted: 1/19/02 1:07pm Subject: RE: pro-life or pro-choice?
	I don't believe in god, I just believe in me. -----signature----- God Bless J-Rod's Wife! Obi-Wan McCartney: Model Forum Member since 1999! America's Beatles are far better than England's precious Rolling Stones
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jedi-thespian Registered: Mar '01	Date Posted: 1/20/02 9:28pm Subject: RE: pro-life or pro-choice?
	OWM: Then I pity you, and I'm sorry if that makes you mad, but it's the truth. No Blasters!: As for child abuse, if I felt that it was mine to avenge, I would enjoy five minutes in an enclosed room with a child abuser tied to a chair and with a medival battle axe in my hands. Child abuse is a horrible thing and I hate the fact that it happens. I hate it. But I find it amazing that pro-choice people would abhor the beating of children while they themselves advocate, support, and cheer for the killing of children. Is it just me, or is that a little weird? Lack of reason and compromise, you say? Does that mean that you wish that pro-lifers refuse to, say for example, accept no abortion except in cases of rape and incest? I am a pro-lifer, and I know that you either are pro-life, or not. There is no in-between. And as a pro-lifer, I say that any true pro-lifer will not negotiate. It is sad that any self-proclaimed pro-lifer will compromise his/her values for convinience. As for me, I've lived a very sheltered life compared to some people, and do not know what is like to be raped or otherwise, but I know the stories. I know whats happened to some people, and its horrible. But some people do not stop and think about their choice, and what they are really doing, and what the consequences will be. And I'm not just talking about abortion, but that's another issue. Just because abortion is a choice, it does not make it right. One more thing: As for abortion in cases such as for the sake of the health of the mother, I still say that it's wrong. Now, if you are wondering about ectopic pregnancy, that does not count as murder, because the baby is by no mean viable, whether or not it is alive when the procedure is performed. And in most cases, it is not. Ectopic pregnancy is not an issue here. Okay, that's all I have to say, for now... -----signature----- Meek is not weak... Fics on my bio... If you're born once, you die twice. If you're born twice, you die once... thespian, signing out
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No blasters! Registered: Feb '00	Date Posted: 1/21/02 6:45am Subject: RE: pro-life or pro-choice?
	jedi-thespian, I'm sure there are Secular Humanists who pity you for your belief in a being that doesn't exist. (I believe in god, btw.) As for your question concerning those who would never harm a child, but support abortion rights: No, it isn't weird. Yes, it is you (and other anti-choice people). As for how the anti-choice (except in cases of rape and incest) position contradicts itself, just read back over my posts. I've already explained that. Finally, as for the statement "just because it's a choice doesn't make it right"... I could equally state "just because you disagree with it doesn't make it wrong". -----signature----- If you're going through Hell, keep going.
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Cailina Registered: Mar '99	Date Posted: 1/21/02 7:20am Subject: RE: pro-life or pro-choice?
	"Contradicts itself? How so?" She was saying it contradicts yourself to be pro-life except for rape and incest. Which you later agreed with. "But I find it amazing that pro-choice people would abhor the beating of children while they themselves advocate, support, and cheer for the killing of children. Is it just me, or is that a little weird?" We don't(or rather I don't..shouldn't speak for all pro-choicers) advocate, support, or cheer for the killing of children. I think that a mother should be allowed to abort a fetus before it is a child. I still don't cheer for it since it goes against my morals/religious beliefs. I would try to persuade someone not to have an abortion...I hardly call that advocating, supporting and cheering for killing "children". -----signature----- Head Staff for MomoCon, GA Tech`s Free Anime and Gaming Convention Visit www.momocon.com for more information
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No blasters! Registered: Feb '00	Date Posted: 1/21/02 9:24am Subject: RE: pro-life or pro-choice?
	Oh yeah, and what Cailina said about "cheering". -----signature----- If you're going through Hell, keep going.
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King-Jellyrobes Registered: Dec '01	Date Posted: 1/21/02 9:05pm Subject: RE: pro-life or pro-choice?
	I'm still pro-life. -----signature----- My intuition nearly makes up for my lack of good judgement..
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