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Author	Topic: The Bible gets an edit....
TreeCave Registered: Jul '01	Date Posted: 12/31/01 11:13am Subject: RE: The Bible gets an edit....
	Great post, Snowdog! There will always be room for artists who want or need a major label to oversell their limited talents. And therein lies the answer, I think. The undertalented are fearful of thr truly talented, who don't need Spears-Martin levels of hype to gain an audience. In religious terms, the people who are only involved in religion for fear they will otherwise go to hell or face some horrid retribution from a vengeful god or fate.... those not-truly-faithful people are scared of the truly faithful, because they sense the truly faithful are comprehending something that is over the not-truly-faithful's heads. And they're right.
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ktwsolo Registered: Feb '01	Date Posted: 12/31/01 11:21am Subject: RE: The Bible gets an edit....
	It's like believing in God as an insurance policy in case He really is real. -----signature----- Everything in moderation.
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cydonia Registered: Jun '01	Date Posted: 12/31/01 11:56am Subject: RE: The Bible gets an edit....
	no athiests in foxholes. Great post, but just one off topic point, i don't think Astralwerks is Norman Cook's personal label, that label has been around since the early 90s, a good majority of the most popular electronic and euro rock is on that label, which i believe is a subsidiary of Caroline records. -----signature----- when you're born a lover, you're born to suffer- Like all soul sisters and soul brothers
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Darth_SnowDog Registered: Sep '01	Date Posted: 12/31/01 11:58am Subject: RE: The Bible gets an edit.... - Date Edited: 12/31/01 12:55pm (1 edits total) Edited By: Darth_SnowDog
	Cydonia: Hmm... I know he has his own label, but maybe not Astralwerks... it's possible he has a distribution deal directly with them, but retains his own creative control... Madonna wrangled the same kind of deal. Maverick is essentially her company, of which she is Chairman and Warner Bros. is the owner and distributor. She retains 100 percent creative control, having wrested it from the hands of Warner Bros. by proving wrong their every hesitation about her pushing people's buttons for the past 20 years. Next year, she'll be up for the Rock'n'Roll Hall of Fame. Granted, hers is a different kind of independence... but she's earned it and proven the record industry needs her more than she needs them. I also respect the fact that she's one of the first mega-successful artists to step forward and seriously implement the internet as a tool for demoing uncompromised samples of her work. To paraphrase a previous poster on the JC... The driving factor behind fundamentalists who oppose free thought has more to do with their insecurity than their faith. It's a self-esteem problem more than anything else. Wealthy people who aren't into religion aren't any more confident than poor people who go to church every day praying for a way out of hell... they just have different defense mechanisms covering their underlying self-image problem. For the rich it's money... for the poor, religion... for the egocentric, power... The thing you have to ask yourself is: If I were in Heaven, had a million dollars, or ruled a country, HOW exactly, if at all, would it make me any happier? Instead of postulating what people's responses would be... I'd like to hear some from the rest of you, and discuss the rationale behind those answers. To slightly paraphrase Morpheus in "The Matrix": If you believe that only the machine can tell you who you are, you need your head examined. -----signature----- I am boycotting theforce.net because of their homophobic, bigoted policy concerning fanfic romance. Others who believe this is bigotry should boycott all TFN, Lucasfilm and IGN products.
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cydonia Registered: Jun '01	Date Posted: 12/31/01 6:18pm Subject: RE: The Bible gets an edit....
	kudos to you for finding something nice to say about madonna. -----signature----- when you're born a lover, you're born to suffer- Like all soul sisters and soul brothers
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TreeCave Registered: Jul '01	Date Posted: 12/31/01 8:43pm Subject: RE: The Bible gets an edit....
	If I were in Heaven, had a million dollars, or ruled a country, HOW exactly, if at all, would it make me any happier? (1) If I were in heaven...I don't know, because I don't know what heaven is like. It's my personal belief that the afterlife - be it a reincarnation right back onto boring old Earth, an eternal vacation in paradise, or whatever - is another phase of learning and growing. If this one's anything to go by, I'll be just as miserable and held just as responsible for the mistakes of every lazy jackass around me as I have been so far in this one. Sorry, I'm very ill, and my general bitterness toward humanity is showing through. (2) If I had a million dollars... I'd waste a lot less time scrabbling for the rent, and have a lot more time to devote to my spiritual growth. I know most people with lots of time on their hands would drink beer all day and watch soaps, but I could easily work 60 hours a week on writing, music, art, graphics design and other creative pursuits. When I spend 40-60 hours a week working for some company that's just screwing over people like me, that leaves absolutely no time for meditation, for acts of kindness (except the ones that take no time), etc. A million dollars would free me up from the fight for survival. It sure wouldn't change who I am inside, but it would give me the time to make those changes myself. (3) Ruling a country would force me to kill myself. I don't like power. I want autonomy - complete control over my OWN life, and not to be at anyone's mercy - but I don't even like it when my roommate capitulates to my choice of where to eat out. Makes me nervous.
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Darth_SnowDog Registered: Sep '01	Date Posted: 1/1/02 5:57pm Subject: RE: The Bible gets an edit.... - Date Edited: 1/1/02 6:00pm (3 edits total) Edited By: Darth_SnowDog
	TreeCave: So, fundamentally... it sounds like none of those things would really directly address the happiness issue. With respect to heaven... well, I guess it's like you say... that depends on your perceptions and outlook on life. I think it's important to focus on the here and now... because if you do that, the rest, whatever is to come, whatever you believe in, will take care of itself. Spending all your life wondering about life's purpose instead of living it doesn't get you any closer to understanding what the hell the journey was all about. I'll come back to the million dollars... but first, ruling a country: Obviously, it doesn't appeal to you... so it in itself probably wouldn't make you any happier. Now, here's the interesting part. The million dollars. The million dollars question is like a pandora's box. On the one hand, you might go use that million dollars up, and free up your time by not working for some crummy-ass company... but what do you do when you run out? Problem: Having a million dollars now doesn't mean you'll still have it later. Solution: Invest the million dollars and live off the interest. At a nominal rate of seven percent, you could live off the interest at $70,000 per year... if you are satisfied with that. Kudos if you are totally comfortable with doing that, because most people who come into that much money suddenly and without obligation would blow it... almost guaranteed. If I had a million dollars, this is precisely what I would do with it... because I know what it's like to have a pot of cash and get greedy, trying to make as much as you can as fast as you can. Stick it in a fixed-interest investment and sit on it without touching the principal (the original $1 million). Provided you go live your life, and try to keep yourself occupied, avoiding apathy, there's nothing wrong with this. The only foreseeable problem is knowing that $70,000 a year today might not be worth much 30 years from now. It might not be enough to live off of, and you better have a backup plan. Assuming one doesn't blow the million all too quickly, and I won't go into the myriad ways in which this can easily happen... the only foreseeable benefit is having your time to do the things you want to do. But if time management is the problem, a million dollars is only one solution... and it's a solution that almost never comes without its problems. If your outgo exceeds your income, your upkeep will be your downfall. Why is it that the more money we make, we feel compelled to keep up with the Joneses? More money... get a bigger house, get a bigger car, get more expensive clothes... why? If time management is the problem, toys aren't necessarily the solution... and money isn't necessarily, either. If you do have the strength to be perfectly content with living off the fixed interest of a million dollars, that begs the question.... What is it about $70,000 a year that fundamentally makes you happier than say... $35,000 a year? Chances are, in addition to time management, money management is also a problem. It doesn't necessarily go away with the more money you have. It only appears easier. I find that my lifestyle hasn't really changed drastically now compared to when I graduated from college and was making half what I make now. I live in a similar apartment, I drive pretty much the same car, my insurance is a bit higher... but really, what is leaving me with just as little savings at the end of the month now compared to then is the fact that I, like a lot of people, let myself get nickeled and dimed to death. These past few months I've been forcing myself to take a better look at how many times I frivolously go to a night show instead of a matinee... Do I need to go out to eat every day for lunch, or can't i just bring some lunch with me to work? How the hell did my dad raise three kids on $12,000 a year when we first came to this country, and yet I can barely manage myself and my wife on far more than that? The fact that I work as hard or less for much more money hasn't fundamentally made me any happier. And as for having lots of money fall in my lap? Well, I did once... and that didn't make me any happier either. In fact, it made me realize what hypocrites people can be... and that only depressed me... to see how people's treatment of me changed when I wore expensive clothes, got expensive haircuts, ate at expensive restaurants... I believe there's nothing inherent about a million dollars that either makes your life less complicated or happier. If you cannot manage your time, money and desires well now... that ability won't magically change when a million dollars falls into your lap... in fact, it will almost invariably get worse... due to what I'd like to call the "safety net" effect... The perception that having more money leaves a lot more room for you to mismanage your life. What it boils down to, as I have observed, is that no amount of money, religion or power can change who you fundamentally are. This may offend a lot of fundamentalists, but I don't really care... I think the truth is that you are the largest factor in determining your destiny. You're the one who has to figure out what makes you happy. You're the one who holds the key to your own "salvation." Even if you can believe in something else that inspires you towards finding happiness, or salvation, ultimately, it is your own actions that make these inspirations a reality for your life. No one will hand you happiness or salvation on a silver platter... you either find it for yourself, or you don't. -----signature----- I am boycotting theforce.net because of their homophobic, bigoted policy concerning fanfic romance. Others who believe this is bigotry should boycott all TFN, Lucasfilm and IGN products.
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InnocentIII Registered: Nov '01	Date Posted: 1/1/02 7:25pm Subject: RE: The Bible gets an edit....
	"Truth is the biggest threat to the existence and power of organized religion." No, it isn't. I don't see how it is. The Church holds Absolute Truth, therefore it would be a threat to itself... which it isn't... I do not interpret the Bible literally. That's just fyi. -----signature----- "Enter upon the road to the Holy Sepulchre, wrest that land from the wicked race..." -Bl. Pope Urban II "No one expects the Spanish Inquisition!"
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TreeCave Registered: Jul '01	Date Posted: 1/1/02 7:40pm Subject: RE: The Bible gets an edit....
	If you do have the strength to be perfectly content with living off the fixed interest of a million dollars, that begs the question.... What is it about $70,000 a year that fundamentally makes you happier than say... $35,000 a year? Part one of your question. Okay, I have never been anywhere near financially comfortable, but am now at the most financially desperate point in my life so far. Anyway, I am the most frugal person alive. I have PERFECT credit - I've never missed a payment, or even deferred one. Can I afford a new car on $35,000 (which I'm not currently making, since the tech sector I was making a bit more than that in two years ago died)? Like, a Corolla - a good investment rather than flashy? Hell, no. Can I afford a house of any sort? Hell, no. I'm scrabbling to pay the rent as it is. I do not go to movies at all other than SW. I spend no money unnecessarily, except for eating out. I could probably save $600 a year by never eating out, but that is just over one month's rent, and the psychological factor of having NO entertainment at all in life would kill me. Yeah, I could be very happy on $70k a year. Part two... why could I be happy with $70k a year and not $35k? First, because I live in Los Angeles (or used to until recently, and will again as soon as I figure out who I have to kill to move back). Even in L.A., I could easily qualify for a mortgage and a new car loan with it. THEN, rather then pay it as the bank directs, by making two extra house payments per year, I shave off a huge amount of the total mortgage.... I forget the formula, but my mother knows everything in the world about taxes and how to make crafty loan payments, etc. Once I own that house, buying a new house will never be a problem, because when its value goes up or down, so does the value of the house I want to buy. It's getting your foot in the door that's no longer possible in the wretched US. By the way, the whole reason I moved from L.A. (worst mistake of my life) was that even on $42k a year, I could barely afford my rent, and could not afford to replace my dangerously crappy 8 year old car. I thought, "Okay, be an adult - if you can't afford to live in L.A., you have to move somewhere cheaper, even if you don't like it." So I did. But guess what? The salaries in the new town were SO much lower than L.A. salaries that the cost of living to salary ratio wound up being WORSE for me than in L.A. So in my case, trying to be financially responsible was a big mistake. I should've just played the lottery. I'm still pretty sick, so I hope that all made sense. I had to change a couple of big booboos when I re-read it, so I may well have inserted stuff about Bigs Bunny and the carrot conspiracy without even knowing it. sigh
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Bithysith Registered: Oct '00	Date Posted: 1/2/02 8:18am Subject: RE: The Bible gets an edit....
	I think it's best to look at all religious institutions as businesses ferociously competing for your patronage. Of course they are all going to claim that their "product" is superior, the only choice, the original. etc. because no one wants to share, or forfeit customers. They will go so far as to use scare tactics to turn you away from alternative choices, as your loyalty doesn't mean anything if it is just a temporary one... they want a binding contract, so much as that you will wean your children on their advertising and propaganda. They want you for life... and each of them claim to provide the greatest product/service mankind has ever seen – eternal salvation. • The Anglican church's greatest patron and official church head - the Queen of England - is also head of England's wealthiest family ... • If all the Christian religions combined their wealth they would be the richest of all nations on Earth ... • In December 1999, the Roman Catholic Church had a say, directly or indirectly, in at least one-third of all the sources of wealth of the western world ... • In March 1999, US Christian Coalition leader and moral crusader Pat Robertson was head of a Christian empire estimated at $312 million ... • At least two historical popes have been described as the world's richest men, including John XXII (1316-1334) and Alexander VI (1492-1503) ... • In August 1999, it was revealed Archbishop Carey was the spiritual leader of some 70 million Anglicans, making him one of the world's most powerful religious figures ... • In Lives of the Popes, Michael J Walsh estimated Pope John Paul II was the spiritual leader of one billion Catholics, making him the world's most powerful religious figure ... • In addition, thanks to Mussolini, the Catholic Church's Vatican City is classed as a country and therefore holds a seat of power on the board of the United Nations • In the 1970s, the Catholic Church was the third wealthiest "nation" behind America and Japan, making it therefore one of the most powerful ... • In March 1999, it was revealed 55 million Americans watched Pat Robertson's Christian Broadcasting Network, making him one of America's most potent electoral forces ... -----signature----- I'm boycotting the JC until it changes its rules on SS relationships. http://jedicouncil-ssr-petition.cjb.net/ - Petition http://www.dantooinebase.com/phpbb/viewforum.php?f=47 - FanFic forum http://members.lycos.co.uk/phptestey/fo/index.php - My Forum
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Darth_SnowDog Registered: Sep '01	Date Posted: 1/2/02 9:50am Subject: RE: The Bible gets an edit.... - Date Edited: 1/2/02 10:54am (2 edits total) Edited By: Darth_SnowDog
	No, it isn't. I don't see how it is. The Church holds Absolute Truth, therefore it would be a threat to itself... which it isn't... Innocent: The Church doesn't hold absolute truth any more than I hold it. That they do is a matter of opinion and faith, not provable fact. Your conclusion about truth is flawed because it's grounded upon an entirely false assumption. If, however, your assumption were true... then my statement would be a glaring, metaphysical paradox... because God would have vaporized me before finishing this post. Religious institutions cannot hand truth to you on a silver platter any more than the waiter at Denny's can. I encourage you to prove to me that you, the Church, or anyone else on earth knows what truth is... from a completely objective point of view. If you can reveal it to me.. in an unmistakable fashion... say perhaps either by opening a hole in the universe to reveal the truth, or having God himself come down here and slap me sideways for my wayward ways. Until then, I think I'll base my conclusion on provable facts, not myths... Bithy, excellent post! Hinduism does not actively convert, it doesn't proselytize, and yet it remains the third largest religion in the world, next only to two proselytizing faiths, Islam and Christianity. There must be something incredibly appealing about the perspectives it offers if it can compete with the biggest, wealthiest marketing machine in the world. Even Pepsi, second to Coke in global market share, can't and won't stop advertising for a second. (Source: www.adherents.com). -----signature----- I am boycotting theforce.net because of their homophobic, bigoted policy concerning fanfic romance. Others who believe this is bigotry should boycott all TFN, Lucasfilm and IGN products.
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cydonia Registered: Jun '01	Date Posted: 1/2/02 6:42pm Subject: RE: The Bible gets an edit....
	Random thoughts on the passing scene.... How does faith become "infallible" truth when there is no proof to substantiate it? Isn't that kind of an oxymoron? I can't understand using the words 'faith' and 'proven truth' in the same breath.... Is there a difference between fundamentalist christianity and islam, both in their worst forms? Both think they are right, both think the other side is evil, the devil's children, and neither side can see their arguments are exactly the same... Why is it, on the whole, that people who know a great deal about the history of the bible, which includes this discussion of mistranslation, who know that jesus didn't have a walking journalist with him saying, "hold on a sec, i missed that. Ok, 'i am the way, the truth, that's what you said, right?' are more likely to believe the bible isn't the infallible truth it's cracked up to be, when the people who don't know much, (or often times, anything) about these things, are more likely to believe every single word of it, and call you a deceiver for having more data than they do?... How can love, compassion, and good will towards your neighbor only be "real" when you are "saved"? What of the generations who lived before the time of christ, who lived their lives much as we do today, doing the best they can and trying to be understanding and loving towards others? Are we saying that they didn't feel those things to the core of their being because it happened before jesus came to be?... How is it, that in all the glory and wonder and mystery that is this life, we as humans are a mistake? Am i to think that every single flower, bird, beast, star, anything, is divinely perfect, but i am a filthy loser, the one thing god got wrong? I can't look at the "inherent sinfulness of man" argument as anything else than people saying, "i'm not god, but i tell you this: God made a mistake making humanity. Didn't have it planned out well. Good thing he loves us conditionally if only we admit we really suck, that we're pathetic, that we need salvation." My version of God is so much more loving and forward thinking than that version...and for having that thought, i am evil... Why, for pete's sake, did god give me a brain with an intellect if i wasn't to use it? For every christian that tells me i'm wrong, they know the truth, i am there thinking, but my brain says i am right, that i know the truth. Who's right? It's my wish and hope that we are ALL right, and that we all get a fair chance in the after life even if we use our intellect that convinces us that semantics are meaningless when we all are talking about the same thing: Love your neighbor. Love yourself. Love god, the earth, whatever you want to call it. Every atheist, muslim, buddhist, hindu, protestant, catholic, ANYONE, who agrees with those principles i want to be friends with in heaven. I don't care what club they belong to. My hope is that god feels the same way. Either way, that's what i believe. If i burn for eternity because of it, so be it. -----signature----- when you're born a lover, you're born to suffer- Like all soul sisters and soul brothers
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keiran_helcyan Registered: Dec '99	Date Posted: 1/2/02 8:14pm Subject: RE: The Bible gets an edit....
	"No, it isn't. I don't see how it is. The Church holds Absolute Truth, therefore it would be a threat to itself... which it isn't..." How can you say that when just recently Pope John Paul II admitted the church had been wrong to Gaellio. Also in another instance the church has ceased to follow the Bull "Unum Sanctum" issued by Boniface (not sure on the number VII?). The church is composed of normal human beings, with normal human urges, and therefor is definately open to error. -----signature----- We're just two lost souls swimmin' in a fish bowl, year after year. Running over the same old ground, Have you found the same old fears? Wish you were here.
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cydonia Registered: Jun '01	Date Posted: 1/2/02 8:15pm Subject: RE: The Bible gets an edit....
	I agree. -----signature----- when you're born a lover, you're born to suffer- Like all soul sisters and soul brothers
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Darth_SnowDog Registered: Sep '01	Date Posted: 1/3/02 2:27pm Subject: RE: The Bible gets an edit....
	Cydonia: Beautiful. Don't ever stop thinking for yourself. See? This is what I find insulting... someone coming to my door telling me that my ideas, which are laid upon a foundation of science, philosophy, culture and religion over 7000 years old, are simply wrong... just because their faith, intuition, superstition, and a very crafty tale which "couldn't possibly" contain any poetic license or artful exaggeration whatsoever tells them my culture is heathen. To me, that's no worse than telling me I don't deserve to be here because I'm from India... or because I'm darker-skinned... and believe me, I've heard such comments from people's mouths. I was utterly disgusted when I heard about the Christian groups burning Harry Potter and Lord of the Rings books, among others... What the hell are these people thinking? They want to turn our country into a Taliban-like theocratic state?! I smell overtones of Nazi Germany... or worse, a return to our own horrid, hatred-filled past that thrived far longer than Naziism. I'm reminded of lines from a song called "Witch Hunt" by Rush: The night is black, without a moon. The air is thick and still. The vigilantes gather on The lonely torchlit hill. Features distorted in the flickering light, Faces are twisted and grotesque. Silent and stern in the sweltering night, The mob moves like demons possesed. Quiet in conscience, calm in their right, Confident their ways are best. The righteous rise With burning eyes Of hatred and ill-will. Madmen fed on fear and lies To beat and burn and kill. They say there are strangers who threaten us, Our immigrants and infidels. They say there is strangeness to danger us In our theatres and bookstore shelves, That those who know what's best for us Must rise and save us from ourselves. Quick to judge, Quick to anger, Slow to understand Ignorance and prejudice And fear walk hand in hand. -----signature----- I am boycotting theforce.net because of their homophobic, bigoted policy concerning fanfic romance. Others who believe this is bigotry should boycott all TFN, Lucasfilm and IGN products.
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