Author Topic: Mormonism
Lord_NoONE 
Registered: Dec '01
41725_Naboo
Date Posted: 11/14/07 8:30am Subject: RE: Mormonism
Kimball_Kinnison posted:
Lord_NoONE posted:
You can't dismiss the change to the introduction as "not being doctrine." It has been the approved introduction of a canonized book of scripture. It was drafted by an apostle and approved by the First Presidency. The book, as a whole, was adopted by the law of common consent. The introduction is as much a doctrinal statement as anything written in the actual book itself.
Yes, it was written by an apostle, but that doesn't mean that it cannot be edited or revised at the direction of the First Presidency. Remember, that same apostle (Bruce R. McConkie) wrote the book Mormon Doctrine, and the First Presidency had him recall the first edition of that book to make corrections in it. He also wrote the Bible Dictionary, as well as the various chapter headings, but that doesn't bar the First Presidency from having them revised. After all, the previous chapter headings were also written by an apostle, and yet there was no problem having them changed.

Moreover, this is a change in the Doubleday trade printing of the Book of Mormon, not the edition published by the Church. I haven't seen any sources that say one way or the other whether they are changing the Church-published edition.

Kimball Kinnison


Actually, Robert Matthews, a religion professor at BYU, wrote the Bible Dictionary as a member of the committee headed by Elder McConkie and Elder Packer.

Of course, what you said about the First Presidency having authority to alter or amend the doctrine of the church is truism. Clearly, the First Presidency is the final arbiter of doctrine in the LDS church and if the doctrine changes, or the interpretation of the doctrine changes, then those changes are pronounced by the First Presidency. The difference between McConkie's Mormon Doctrine and his introduction to the Book of Mormon is that the introduction was incorporated into a canonized book of scripture and adopted by the leading quorums and the body of the church by common consent. Thus, McConkie's introduction is doctrine. The First Presidency, obviously, retains authority to alter, amend, delete, or change anything contained in the canonized works; concurrently, the First Presidency retains the right to reprimand, comment, and criticize independent works authored by apostles and other leaders for their doctrinal veracity.

 

Post Reply | Quote Reply | Active Topic Notification | Private Message | Post History
Kimball_Kinnison 
Registered: Oct '01
6249_Veers
Date Posted: 11/16/07 10:58am Subject: RE: Mormonism
Lord_NoONE posted:
Actually, Robert Matthews, a religion professor at BYU, wrote the Bible Dictionary as a member of the committee headed by Elder McConkie and Elder Packer.
Apologies. I've seen several sources refer to McConkie as being "responsible" for the Bible Dictionary, and just sort of interpreted that as being either the author, or the primary author of it. I'd never really had a need to look into it much deeper than that.

Lord_NoONE posted:
Of course, what you said about the First Presidency having authority to alter or amend the doctrine of the church is truism. Clearly, the First Presidency is the final arbiter of doctrine in the LDS church and if the doctrine changes, or the interpretation of the doctrine changes, then those changes are pronounced by the First Presidency. The difference between McConkie's Mormon Doctrine and his introduction to the Book of Mormon is that the introduction was incorporated into a canonized book of scripture and adopted by the leading quorums and the body of the church by common consent. Thus, McConkie's introduction is doctrine. The First Presidency, obviously, retains authority to alter, amend, delete, or change anything contained in the canonized works; concurrently, the First Presidency retains the right to reprimand, comment, and criticize independent works authored by apostles and other leaders for their doctrinal veracity.
Except that there is a difference between being published in a book of canonized scripture and being canonized scripture. It is an introduction to the text, not part of the text itself.

Personally, in my almost 28 years (almost 20 of which as a baptized member of the Church), I have never known anyone (that I know of) who treated the Introduction as canonized scripture. I have seen people refer to it as a historical reference (primarily to the Joseph Smith quote about it being the "most correct book"), but not in a doctrinal sense as scripture itself.

There is a similar introduction for the D&C and for the PGP, but neither of those is considered canonized, nor as authoritative. And yet, both of those books of scripture are considered of equal authority to the BoM. Why, then, should the BoM's introduction be considered more authoritative than either of those?

It is not something of doctrinal authority, and the change itself is incredibly minor. The doctrine of the Church is defined in its canonized scriptures, not in the introductions, nor other study aids that are often published with them. Last I checked, those weren't being changed.*

Kimball Kinnison

* Note: Yes, there have been changes made to the text of the Book of Mormon in the past, but those have all been documented, and the vast majority of them were made by Joseph Smith himself, and were corrections to the original edition published (correcting errors made by the publisher). Unfortunately, because it was being published simultaneously in both the US and the UK at the time, those changes were not propagated to later editions until a more thorough review was conducted for the 1981 edition. Every alleged change that I have seen has actually been thoroughly documented and sourced.

 

-----signature-----
You deserve the wrath of Kimball...- OWM
Why, Kimball... I didn't know you had it in you.- KW
I think that Kimball just made a joke, and a funny joke at that.- Raven
Stupidity got us into this mess, why can't it get us out?
Post Reply | Quote Reply | Active Topic Notification | Private Message | Post History
Lord_NoONE 
Registered: Dec '01
41725_Naboo
Date Posted: 11/16/07 3:43pm Subject: RE: Mormonism
Kimball_Kinnison posted:
Lord_NoONE posted:
Of course, what you said about the First Presidency having authority to alter or amend the doctrine of the church is truism. Clearly, the First Presidency is the final arbiter of doctrine in the LDS church and if the doctrine changes, or the interpretation of the doctrine changes, then those changes are pronounced by the First Presidency. The difference between McConkie's Mormon Doctrine and his introduction to the Book of Mormon is that the introduction was incorporated into a canonized book of scripture and adopted by the leading quorums and the body of the church by common consent. Thus, McConkie's introduction is doctrine. The First Presidency, obviously, retains authority to alter, amend, delete, or change anything contained in the canonized works; concurrently, the First Presidency retains the right to reprimand, comment, and criticize independent works authored by apostles and other leaders for their doctrinal veracity.
Except that there is a difference between being published in a book of canonized scripture and being canonized scripture. It is an introduction to the text, not part of the text itself.

Personally, in my almost 28 years (almost 20 of which as a baptized member of the Church), I have never known anyone (that I know of) who treated the Introduction as canonized scripture. I have seen people refer to it as a historical reference (primarily to the Joseph Smith quote about it being the "most correct book"), but not in a doctrinal sense as scripture itself.

There is a similar introduction for the D&C and for the PGP, but neither of those is considered canonized, nor as authoritative. And yet, both of those books of scripture are considered of equal authority to the BoM. Why, then, should the BoM's introduction be considered more authoritative than either of those?

It is not something of doctrinal authority, and the change itself is incredibly minor. The doctrine of the Church is defined in its canonized scriptures, not in the introductions, nor other study aids that are often published with them. Last I checked, those weren't being changed.*

Kimball Kinnison

I think hairs are being split here. The introduction was approved by the First Presidency and was included in the book, ostensibly, as an accurate recitation of what the book purports to be and what it seeks to accomplish. Sure, you're not going to have an entire Sunday School lesson on the introduction to the various books of scripture, although I suppose that you could have one for the title page of the Book of Mormon that was actually translated by Joseph Smith. Anyway, the statements contained in the introduction are accurate statements of doctrine and especially since McConkie wrote the introduction and it was approved by the First Presidency. If it hadn't been, then it would not have been in the book to begin with.

I agree that there is a distinction between the actual text of the Book of Mormon, i.e., the translated portions, and the footnotes; however, the distinction is arguably a minor one. The footnotes are there to explain doctrine and are specific to the LDS faith. They exist to weave the four canonized books of scripture together into a broader tapestry of religious definition.

Your position regarding the Doctrine and Covenants and the Pearl of Great Price is interesting. The introductions to those books of scriptures are similarly approved by the First Presidency and the general body for their inclusion in those books. I certainly think those introductions should be accurate statements of what is contained in the books, including an accurate representation of the doctrine espoused therein.

Nevertheless, you are right. The change is ultimately insignificant and does not materially affect any doctrinal position of the LDS church.

 

Post Reply | Quote Reply | Active Topic Notification | Private Message | Post History
Kimball_Kinnison 
Registered: Oct '01
6249_Veers
Date Posted: 11/16/07 4:09pm Subject: RE: Mormonism
Lord_NoONE posted:
I think hairs are being split here. The introduction was approved by the First Presidency and was included in the book, ostensibly, as an accurate recitation of what the book purports to be and what it seeks to accomplish. Sure, you're not going to have an entire Sunday School lesson on the introduction to the various books of scripture, although I suppose that you could have one for the title page of the Book of Mormon that was actually translated by Joseph Smith. Anyway, the statements contained in the introduction are accurate statements of doctrine and especially since McConkie wrote the introduction and it was approved by the First Presidency. If it hadn't been, then it would not have been in the book to begin with.

I agree that there is a distinction between the actual text of the Book of Mormon, i.e., the translated portions, and the footnotes; however, the distinction is arguably a minor one. The footnotes are there to explain doctrine and are specific to the LDS faith. They exist to weave the four canonized books of scripture together into a broader tapestry of religious definition.

Your position regarding the Doctrine and Covenants and the Pearl of Great Price is interesting. The introductions to those books of scriptures are similarly approved by the First Presidency and the general body for their inclusion in those books. I certainly think those introductions should be accurate statements of what is contained in the books, including an accurate representation of the doctrine espoused therein.
The official definition of the doctrine of the LDS Church is the canonized scriptures, namely the Bible (KJV), the Book of Mormon, the Doctrine & Covenants, and the Pearl of Great Price. Everything else beyond that is not considered authoritative. If a new revelation comes along, in order for it to be considered doctrine of the Church, it must be added to the canonized scriptures, as happened with D&C 138, or Official Declaration 2 (for example).

Everything else, from Conference talks, to lesson manuals, to study aids (including the introductions) is not authoritative. Even translations of the scriptures are not considered authoritative (only the English versions of the Latter-day scriptures are considered authoritative).

That's why, if you read Conference talks (for example), you will find constant references and citations for scriptures. It is a matter of tying everything back to the actual doctrine of the Church. Similarly, when the Church releases a new translation of the Book of Mormon, they will change the wording of many verses, but that doesn't mean that the doctrine of those verses is changed. That's also why books like the Journal of Discourses are not a source for doctrines of the Church.

This wording change is on the same level as a revision on a Church manual, or a new translation of the Book of Mormon into Spanish. Both of those are approved by the First Presidency, but that doesn't make them authoritative.

Kimball Kinnison

 

-----signature-----
You deserve the wrath of Kimball...- OWM
Why, Kimball... I didn't know you had it in you.- KW
I think that Kimball just made a joke, and a funny joke at that.- Raven
Stupidity got us into this mess, why can't it get us out?
Post Reply | Quote Reply | Active Topic Notification | Private Message | Post History
Lane_Winree 
Registered: Mar '06
16508_Wedge Antilles
Date Posted: 1/27 7:48pm Subject: RE: Mormonism - Date Edited: 1/27 8:07pm (1 edits total) Edited By: Lane_Winree
It pains me to bring this thread up after so much inactivity for something like this.

According to a breaking news feed from CNN, Gordon B. Hinckley, president and prophet of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints, has just passed away.

It seems to be that part of our culture is having one prophet that we (as individuals) seem to cherish the most, often the one we grew up with. I can't help but think that for me, it's going to be President Hinckley.

Rest in peace, President. Thank you for guiding me through my youth.

rose

 

-----signature-----
Author of the Rise of a Rogue trilogy: http://boards.theforce.net/beyond_the_saga/b10477/20721759/p1
Current WIP: Redemption of the Exiles: http://boards.theforce.net/Message.aspx?topic=24000186&brd=10477&start=24026104
Team fic w/ Inyri: X-Wing: Illusion
Post Reply | Quote Reply | Active Topic Notification | Private Message | Post History
Espaldapalabras 
Registered: Aug '05
46173_Robot Chicken: Ackbar Cereal
Date Posted: 1/27 8:29pm Subject: RE: Mormonism
Well this is certainly big news for the church. The majority of members of the church have only known him as the prophet. The impact he has had on the church is just tremendous, and is right up there with Joseph Smith and Brigham Young. He was the first prophet I saw, I remember going to a youth meeting in Tulsa to see him when I was 11, going to a temple dedication in Houston 7 years ago, and going to general conferences since then.

rose

 

-----signature-----
A vote is like a rifle: its usefulness depends upon the character of the user.
Theodore Roosevelt
We should be eternally vigilant against attempts to check the expression of opinions that we loathe.
Oliver Wendell Holmes Jr.
Post Reply | Quote Reply | Active Topic Notification | Private Message | Post History
BobaFrank 
Registered: Jul '01
13598_Luke
Date Posted: 1/27 8:39pm Subject: RE: Mormonism
I will miss him dearly. He made a major impact on my life. rose

 

-----signature-----
"Fear leads to anger, anger leads to hate, hate leads to suffering." -Yoda TPM
"May the Force Be with You."
"One Nation Under GOD."
"I want to come with you to Alderaan and become a Jedi like my father."
"I am a Jedi. Like my father before me."
Post Reply | Quote Reply | Active Topic Notification | Private Message | Post History
KnightWriter 
Title:
Administrator Emeritus

Registered: Nov '01
39907_Obi-Wan Kenobi
Date Posted: 1/27 8:49pm Subject: RE: Mormonism
My condolences to my Mormon acquaintances and friends here. I'll have to get in touch with my LDS friends around this area soon.

 

-----signature-----
"May you live all the days of your life"
Post Reply | Quote Reply | Active Topic Notification | Private Message | Post History
Equal_Protection 
Registered: Oct '04
22675_Padme
Date Posted: 1/27 8:53pm Subject: RE: Mormonism - Date Edited: 1/27 8:55pm (1 edits total) Edited By: Equal_Protection
Such a profound loss. He was a great man, leader, and disciple. His impact on the church and the world will not soon be forgotten. This is a forward looking church and President Hinckley greatly helped the church transcend the misconceptions about it. My prayers are with President Hinckley's family and with President Monson and the rest of the Quorum of the Twelve.

rose

 

-----signature-----
The problem is choice.
Post Reply | Quote Reply | Active Topic Notification | Private Message | Post History
Darth-Horax 
Registered: Aug '01
6962_Communications<br>Officer
Date Posted: 1/27 8:58pm Subject: RE: Mormonism
It feels like I've lost an uncle or something...the blow has been a hard one to bear the brunt of this evening.

However, I feel the comment above was a bit erroneous. The majority of church members have known more than Hinckley as the prophet...most of hte members are older.

Heck, I"m nearly 33, and I still remember Spencer W. Kimball, Ezra Taft Benson, Howard W. Hunter, AND President Gordon B. Hinckley as prophets.

But it's nothing to argue over. wink

At least he's back with Marjorie again.

 

-----signature-----
CREATOR and ORIGINATOR of the Jedi Draft Series
Founding High Councilman: SWC Jedi Trials Council
Master of Vaapad (Form VII), Form I, and Form III
Proud founding member of the Fecal Force
*Sir Trailer Link*-Sarcasm Knights of the YJCC
Post Reply | Quote Reply | Active Topic Notification | Private Message | Post History
BobaFrank 
Registered: Jul '01
13598_Luke
Date Posted: 1/27 9:14pm Subject: RE: Mormonism
The loss of a prophet/leader/friend is always hard to take in the beginning. I'm 38 and remember all the church leaders in my lifetime. I actually met Spencer W. Kimball when I was about 8 years old. I cried when he passed, as well as when the prophets/leaders after him passed. Pres. Hinkley had just been confirmed when I came back to church after 10 years of inactivity. His presence, faith and humor during Gen. Conference were always something I looked foward too. I know he lived by the principles he teached and he was a great example to me and I know to many around the world whether they were members of the church or not. I'll miss him very much as I stated above. rose

 

-----signature-----
"Fear leads to anger, anger leads to hate, hate leads to suffering." -Yoda TPM
"May the Force Be with You."
"One Nation Under GOD."
"I want to come with you to Alderaan and become a Jedi like my father."
"I am a Jedi. Like my father before me."
Post Reply | Quote Reply | Active Topic Notification | Private Message | Post History
Espaldapalabras 
Registered: Aug '05
46173_Robot Chicken: Ackbar Cereal
Date Posted: 1/27 9:14pm Subject: RE: Mormonism
I was talking about all the converts plus the young people.

 

-----signature-----
A vote is like a rifle: its usefulness depends upon the character of the user.
Theodore Roosevelt
We should be eternally vigilant against attempts to check the expression of opinions that we loathe.
Oliver Wendell Holmes Jr.
Post Reply | Quote Reply | Active Topic Notification | Private Message | Post History
Kimball_Kinnison 
Registered: Oct '01
6249_Veers
Date Posted: 1/28 4:30am Subject: RE: Mormonism
I remember about 10 years ago, he came to the DC area to give a youth fireside at the DC stake center. I got to have the most amazing seat in the house.

I was on the stage at the back of the Cultural Hall, in the center of the front row. I was able to look straight ahead and directly into his eyes from across the room. Throughout the entire evening, it felt like he was looking at and speaking directly to me. While I've heard him give the same talk a few other times since then (well, more of the same message, as there were a few that he really focused on, and he did repeat them a few times), it was really at that time that I knew, without any doubts, that he really was a living prophet.

My prayers right now are going out to President Monson. If anyone needs help right now, it would be him. He has some pretty big shoes to fill.

I'm certain that the Lord will pull him through.

Kimball Kinnison

 

-----signature-----
You deserve the wrath of Kimball...- OWM
Why, Kimball... I didn't know you had it in you.- KW
I think that Kimball just made a joke, and a funny joke at that.- Raven
Stupidity got us into this mess, why can't it get us out?
Post Reply | Quote Reply | Active Topic Notification | Private Message | Post History
Lord_NoONE 
Registered: Dec '01
41725_Naboo
Date Posted: 1/28 6:56am Subject: RE: Mormonism - Date Edited: 1/28 6:58am (2 edits total) Edited By: Lord_NoONE
President Hinckley will truly be missed among the Latter-day Saints. He moved the church into the 21st century and had a vision of how the church would develop. He was an amazing man.

rose

EDIT: For those wondering about how succession in the presidency works in the LDS faith, please click here. This is a talk given by Elder Bruce R. McConkie following the death of President Harold B. Lee. He describes in detail how President Spencer Kimball was installed in the presidency. It is an interesting talk.

 

Post Reply | Quote Reply | Active Topic Notification | Private Message | Post History
Master-Mishima 
Registered: Jun '02
14385_Drizzt<br>by RA Salvatore  (A&A)
Date Posted: 1/28 3:39pm Subject: RE: Mormonism
rose

This has just been a tough start to the year. So many changes. What is that saysing? There is nothing as constant as change. I dont know but it certainly seems so.

The first prophet I really identified with was Spencer W Kimball. But I remember that Gordon B Hinckley was there with him. I remember when President Monson was called to be a counselor as well. It has been hard to see someone who has been in the front of the Church for so long pass on. He was like everybody's ideal grandfather. There was a lot of crying at my house last night.

One day, we will see him again in the midst of the others who are waiting. One day in the not too distant future we will all see the truth of the gospel of Jesus Christ manifest before us. None will escape it and none will be able to deny that Jesus is the Christ. There have been very few things of which I have been certain of in this life. But this is one of them - Gordon Bitner Hinckley is a prophet of God and has gone to dwell with him in rest for a season along with the other prophets before him. I look forward to the day when I can again look on his face in the presence of our Father.

 

Post Reply | Quote Reply | Active Topic Notification | Private Message | Post History