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Topic:
The New Testament Teaches That Everyone Will Be Saved.
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Darth-Stryphe
Title: Saga Manager
Registered:
Apr '01
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Date Posted:
1/24/02 1:28pm
Subject:
RE: The New Testament Teaches That Everyone Will Be Saved.
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OK, that covered the ones I was thinking of.
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Binary_Sunset
Registered:
Oct '00
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Date Posted:
1/25/02 9:24am
Subject:
RE: The New Testament Teaches That Everyone Will Be Saved.
- Date Edited:
1/25/02 9:25am (1 edits total)
Edited By:
Binary_Sunset
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OK, you guys have given me hell  , so now I'll give you my answers.
I'm going to do this in three posts. This first post will cover most of the verses you gave me:
Matthew 5:21-23, 5:28-30, 10:27-29, 23:14-16, 23:32-34; Mark 9:43-48, Luke 12:4-6, and James 3:5-7.
There is no justification for the translators to use the word "hell" in these passages.
The Greek word here translated "hell" is gehenna. In Greek ge means "valley" and henna is the proper name "Hinnom". So gehenna means "valley of Hinnom".
The valley of Hinnom is a valley a few hundred yards southwest of Jerusalem. Why would Jesus threaten the Pharisees with "the valley of Hinnom"?
Because they were doomed to destruction. In A.D. 70, after the Romans sacked Jerusalem, they burned the bodies of the untold thousands they killed. Where did they burn them?
In the valley of Hinnom.
So all these verses are talking about the this-worldly judgment on the apostate Jews who rejected God and his messiah in favor of military arms. "Those who live by the sword, will die by the sword."
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Binary_Sunset
Registered:
Oct '00
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Date Posted:
1/25/02 10:06am
Subject:
RE: The New Testament Teaches That Everyone Will Be Saved.
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Now I'll look at Matthew 16:17-19 and Luke 16:22-24. The Greek word often translated "hell" in these passages is hades, which means "the grave".
In the first passage, Jesus mentions "the gates of the grave", which was an idiom for "death". Jesus was saying that death (both physical and spiritual) would not overcome his people. It is similar to the passage in John's gospel (at Lazarus's tomb) where Jesus says, "He that lives and believes in me shall never die."
The second passage is part of the story of a different Lazarus. Almost this entire story was well-known in Jesus's time. He was far from the first person to tell it. It was a common piece of folklore in his time. He got his listeners' attention by telling the story, then added the twist at the end: The rich man begs for someone to be sent back from the dead to warn his brothers against being wicked. But (and we can imagine Jesus looking right into the eyes of his opponents as he says this) Jesus ends, "If they will not listen to the Torah of Moses, neither will they listen even if someone rises from the dead." The point being that Jesus's opponents will not heed him, even after he rises from the dead.
I wouldn't want to press a common 1st-century folktale for information regarding the afterlife, especially when Jesus uses that tale as a vehicle for something else: A witness against the hard-heartedness of those who won't accept Jesus even after his glorious resurrection.
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Binary_Sunset
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Oct '00
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Date Posted:
1/25/02 10:50am
Subject:
RE: The New Testament Teaches That Everyone Will Be Saved.
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Regarding Jude 1:7
The Greek word translated here as "eternal" is aionios. Depending on its context, it has several different meanings. It does not always (or even usually) mean "lasting forever". For example: In the Greek version of the OT the word aionios is applied to these things:
Solomon's temple (I Kings 3:12f)
Caleb's inheritance (Joshua 14:9)
Gehazi's leprosy (II Kings 5:27)
etc
This verse in Jude is a further example of aionios not meaning "lasting forever". It speaks of the judgment on Sodom and Gomorrah; which certainly did not last forever. The fire and brimstone fell from heaven and consumed those cities. It was over and done with. The word aionios here means that the fire came from God.
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Binary_Sunset
Registered:
Oct '00
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Date Posted:
1/25/02 10:54am
Subject:
RE: The New Testament Teaches That Everyone Will Be Saved.
- Date Edited:
1/25/02 10:55am (1 edits total)
Edited By:
Binary_Sunset
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OK, four posts. Here's the last of the passages: 2 Peter 2:3-5.
The word mistranslated "hell" here is Tartaros, which is not used anywhere else in the Bible. The term Tartaros is taken from Greek mythology, in which it was the lowest part of Hades (the realm of the dead). Now, the Greek translators of the OT used the word Hades to translate the Hebrew word sheol, which means "the grave".
So this verse says that God sent angels to the grave ("pits of darkness")--killed them, destroyed them. The "reserved for judgment" phrase is puzzling, but in any case the following is certain:
1. The passage is dealing with angels, not with men.
2. The passage is primarily talking about God destroying sinful angels.
3. There is no teaching here regarding hell or eternal damnation.
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cydonia
Registered:
Jun '01
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Date Posted:
1/25/02 11:37am
Subject:
RE: The New Testament Teaches That Everyone Will Be Saved.
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One question: why are these bible translators so quick to translate everything as hell when it means something else? Was it just poor scholarship? If it means valley of hinnom, why doesn't it say valley of hinnom?
The bible, as far as i've been told, is immune to mistranslation because God oversees it.
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Darth-Stryphe
Title: Saga Manager
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Apr '01
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Date Posted:
1/25/02 3:35pm
Subject:
RE: The New Testament Teaches That Everyone Will Be Saved.
- Date Edited:
1/25/02 3:44pm (1 edits total)
Edited By:
Darth-Stryphe
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Interesting replies, Binary. I'll give a few rebutals:
1) First, I'll have to do some research. I don't know Greek, but known Christains who do, so I'll not do a point by point on all those verses just yet.
2) The context of the 2 Peter 2:3-5, shows many forms of destruction besides hell, then compares them to the Day of Judgement (verse 11, or is it 10?). Now, my understanding of the Day of Judgement is the time at the end of the World when God (in simple terms) grants souls access into Heaven, or denies them access. This, in and of itself, doesn't prove Hell, but given your opening argument, I'm assuming you don't buy into that translation of the Day of Juedgment, so, first, I'd like to hear your views on the Day of Judgement.
3) Going hand-in-hand with my last point; The title of this debate actualy isn't "Is there a hell," but rather "The New Testament Teaches That Everyone Will Be Saved". So, I'd like to add a new dimension to this debate. Forget whether or not Hell exists for now, I'd like to go back the statement you made: "everyone is saved." Saying that not everyone is saved doesn't necessary endorse the idea of Hell, so that's why I'd like to split this debate into two parts: is there a Hell, and is everyone really saved? For the former, I'll research your rebutals and assume burder of proof, but for the later, I lay the burden of proof on you, since you made the statement.
Ok, it'll be a few days before I gave rebutal those versus. But feel free to go ahead and address points 2 and 3, Binary.
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Binary_Sunset
Registered:
Oct '00
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Date Posted:
1/25/02 7:42pm
Subject:
RE: The New Testament Teaches That Everyone Will Be Saved.
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Cydonia wrote: "Why are these bible translators so quick to translate everything as hell when it means something else? Was it just poor scholarship? If it means valley of hinnom, why doesn't it say valley of hinnom?"
Good question, with a rather involved answer. A good one-word answer is "habit". But let me elaborate:
Back when Jesus was talking about the valley of Hinnom, his listeners knew exactly what he was talking about. Jesus was talking to fellow first-century Jews who certainly knew what the valley of Hinnom was.
By the end of the 1st century (about 70 years after Jesus's death and resurrection), most people who believed in Jesus were gentiles, rather than Jews. Coming from a culture foreign to Jesus's Jewish culture, they had a tough time understanding much of Jesus's words as recorded in the gospels. Also, for various reasons, animosity was high between Jews and Christians by this time. So the Christians (who were mostly gentiles) were certainly not going to let Jews explain Jesus's words to them! Instead, they merrily misunderstood his words. It went something like this:
1. "Hey, Jesus keeps talking about a future fiery judgment."
(Wrong. This judgment was still in the future when Jesus talked about it in A.D. 26-30, but this judgment had come and gone in A.D. 70, so it's now in the past.)
2. "Sometimes he said the people caught in this judgment would go to a place called gehenna. Wow. It must be some supernatural torture chamber God cooked up."
(Wrong, it's a valley near Jerusalem.)
3. "Jesus keeps saying this judgment will take place on the last day. That must mean it takes place at the end of the world!"
(Wrong, the judgment took place on the Jewish Temple's last day, not the earth's last day.)
4. "So the fiery judgment must happen to bad people after they die."
(No, it took place in A.D. 70.)
5. "So, putting it all together, when non-believers die their souls go to unending torment in a fiery supernatural place called gehenna."
(No, when the apostate Jews in 1st-century Israel rejected Jesus in favor of military might, they were slaughtered and their bodies thrown into the valley of Hinnom.)
As the centuries passed, these common gentile misreadings of Jesus's words became the common belief amongst Christians, until they were finally defined as dogma in A.D. 553. Since then, most Christians have believed in hell.
Why do modern-day translators keep using the word hell? I think it's because of the incredibly strong weight of tradition that hell has behind it. They just can't imagine that the whole edifice of hell is illusory. It just doesn't occur to them.
A significant minority of scholars agree with me on this. Click here for a great site. Click on "Topical Index" for a valuable selection of articles.
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cydonia
Registered:
Jun '01
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Date Posted:
1/25/02 8:01pm
Subject:
RE: The New Testament Teaches That Everyone Will Be Saved.
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I've actually been reading quite a bit from that site already, i remembered you posting some testimonials earlier. It's nice for me because all these problems people have with the bible are the exact same ones i have, it's nice to know i'm not the only one who digs jesus but can't believe what other people say about him and what he meant.
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IellaWessiriNRI
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Jan '01
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Date Posted:
1/26/02 12:57pm
Subject:
RE: The New Testament Teaches That Everyone Will Be Saved.
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Why do modern-day translators keep using the word hell?
Because in Greek, the word used is "hades."
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cydonia
Registered:
Jun '01
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Date Posted:
1/26/02 1:39pm
Subject:
RE: The New Testament Teaches That Everyone Will Be Saved.
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But hades is a mythological word. That was the greek underworld. Hell is the greek underworld? So Greek Mythology is true? Why haven't i heard that in sunday school?
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IellaWessiriNRI
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Jan '01
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Date Posted:
1/26/02 3:24pm
Subject:
RE: The New Testament Teaches That Everyone Will Be Saved.
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"Hades" is usually used when referring to the Greek underworld. It also basically means hell... the bad place that people go after they die. The NT authors, many of them writing in Greek, found the word "hades" the best word (in Greek) to describe hell.
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Darth Geist
Registered:
Oct '99
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Date Posted:
1/26/02 3:37pm
Subject:
RE: The New Testament Teaches That Everyone Will Be Saved.
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Hades was the ruler of the underworld, not the name of the underworld itself (though it's taken on that meaning in contemporary terms). The Greek underworld, unlike the Christian Heaven/Hell concept, was a place where all souls went when they died, not just the "bad" ones. Also unlike the concept of Hell, the underworld wasn't one uniform landscape; parts of it were reserved for punishment of the wicked, but other parts were set aside as places to reward the worthy. Basically, it was an extension of the way the Greeks preserved life on Earth.
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"The key to enlightenment, then, is recognizing the basic goodness of all things.
Youth and old age, life and death, happiness and sorrow, all have their place
and we must learn to let them come and go in their time, without attachment or aversion."
- Diz
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cydonia
Registered:
Jun '01
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Date Posted:
1/26/02 3:39pm
Subject:
RE: The New Testament Teaches That Everyone Will Be Saved.
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You're right Geist. Hades was Kevin Spacey in Disney's Herucules, as i recall.
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Palpazzar
Registered:
Aug '00
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Date Posted:
1/26/02 3:41pm
Subject:
RE: The New Testament Teaches That Everyone Will Be Saved.
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Yep, just like Iella said. It is a word describing the underworld, not validating the mythology.
Lots of people use the word 'hell' for various meanings without the belief in a literal hell. It is just a word.
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I was never married to Oprah
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