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Author	Topic: The New Testament Teaches That Everyone Will Be Saved.
Darth-Stryphe Title: Saga Manager Registered: Apr '01	Date Posted: 1/27/02 4:56pm Subject: RE: The New Testament Teaches That Everyone Will Be Saved. - Date Edited: 1/27/02 5:46pm (8 edits total) Edited By: Darth-Stryphe
	Hi there Binary, I'm popping back in for a bit. OK, I've done some research on the Greek translations we've been discussion. First: hades. Yes, it is accurately translated "the grave", and yes, that does cause a lot of confusion in today's church. Now, Cyndolia ask about the Bible being mistranlated. Well, come to find out, in old english, the word "hell" had two meanings, and one was "the grave". So when King James got the English translations translated, using the word "hell" was accurate, because he meant "grave" and not "Damnation". However, over the centuries, the English language stopped using hell except in reference to the domain of the devil. Despite this, the original translations were left in, and not changed to "the grave", thus the confusion (actually, I do believe there are some english translations of the Bible that do translate that word as "grave", but I may be wrong). Next; gehenna. Your translation is also correct, in the literal since. However, what you did not know is that the Jews used gehenna as a metopher for hell. Being tossed into gehenna was a Jews way of saying being tossed into hell. Let me support that claim with a little history. The valley of Henna first took on sigficants in Jerusalim during the reign of Solomon. Solomon, late in his life, took to worshipping foreign gods. He dedicate the valley of Henna to be a place where various temples were built for idol worship. Some time after Solomon's rule, the various religions that were practiced in Henna were done away with in favor for the worship of -- darn, I've forgotten the name -- I think it was Moleck (spelling)? Anyway, this god was a dark god and its practices demanded the sacrifice of first born babies, which were thrown into fire and consumed. I didn't get enough detailed information on this, this weekend to tell you how long that went on, but eventually, a jewish king came into power (Josiah -- spelling??). Angry at the barbaric practice of Moleck, Josiah wiped out all his followers and destroyed all his temples, then desecrated the ground in the valley, so that no religious worship of any kind would take place there again. It was then turned into a city's garbage dump. As you said, dead carcasses were thrown there, as well as garbage. This ended up causing a serious health hazard. So it was decreed that a fire should be kept burning there at all times. So, it became a place of on-going fire. The Old Testiment does not talk about Hell, yet the Jews adopted the idea. It was the jews that decided hell had ever lasting fire. Maybe their idea of what Hell was came from other cultures, maybe from divine prophet never recorded in the Bible, or maybe they made the idea up themselves. I'm not sure on that one. However the came to the knowledge, they had the idea that it was ever lasting fire. Now Genna was a place of ever lasting fire, of sorts, so it became a parrelell, or rather a metaphor for Hell. I do not know if the fires of Genna were still going on in Christ's time or not, but I do know the metaphor was still around. The fact that the Old Testiment does not refer to Hell and that the Jews adopted the idea (perhaps, or perhaps a prophet who's records don't exist today spoke of it) could be used as an argument against the legitimacy of the idea. And I'd almost agree with you, however, I'd also remind you that the Old Testiment doesn't speak of the rightous being rewarded with Heaven, either. That idea was adopted at the same time as damnation. Also, since Jesus speaks of Hell, it gives the idea legimaticy (if you believe the word of Jesus, which I do). I mean, Jesus, being the Son of God, would know of these matters better than any mortal. If the idea of hell was a false idea, I believe Jesus would have discredited it, since he was in the business of discrediting certain teachings and ideas of the Pharasies. Ading to this, I'd also like to say that I can honestly say, as a result, the Bible does not tell us what Hell is like. I think that idea is academic for the sake of this argument. The fact it exists at all is all, if not more, than I want to know. Also, if we wish to give credit to the apostiles as men "in the know" about salvation and damnation (which I do, but I am not sure if you do), I have further arguements, but for another time. Long day I've had. I shall return... I mention this because I assume we both believe in Heaven as a place of eternal life, given your openingly arguement on page one. I know I believe in souls going to Heaven, and I'm assuming you do, too. If you dismiss one idea because it wasn't spoken of in the OT, then it gives the other idea, the idea we agree on, less creditablity. EDIT -- Pardon my grammar, I am very tired right now. -----signature----- Lord of the Script, it's FABULOUSO: http://boards.theforce.net/Star_Wars_Community/b10012/8237772/p1 The Desperate Road: http://boards.theforce.net/your_jedi_council_community/b10008/23481819/p1 I love you, lonely Dewback on the ridge Az Isten áldjon meg!
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Binary_Sunset Registered: Oct '00	Date Posted: 1/28/02 9:03am Subject: RE: The New Testament Teaches That Everyone Will Be Saved.
	Stryphe, you're getting ahead of me! Let me address your post of 1/25, then I'll try to address your latest post sometime later. Regarding the day of judgment spoken of in II Peter: I believe that day of judgment to be the destruction of Jerusalem in A.D. 70. Does this mean that I don't believe in the one, final, definite, Day of Judgment? No. I do believe in it. This is what I believe will happen on that final Day: 1. Jesus Christ will physically return from heaven. 2. All the dead will be raised up imperishable to glorious eternal life. 3. All the living will be transformed to imperishability for glorious eternal life. 4. The sinfulness of all will be instantly and utterly eradicated. These four things will all take place in the same instant of time. Sin itself will be judged, and found worthy only of destruction; mankind will be saved. I find it hard to randomly turn to a page in the New Testament and not find blessed assurance that God will save us all. Here are some passages for your consideration: Jn 4:42 and 1Jn 4:14-Jesus is Savior of the world. Rm 5:15-21-In Adam all condemned, in Christ all live. Eph 1:10-All come into Him at the fulness of times. Phl 2:9-11-Every tongue shall confess Jesus is Lord. Acts 3:20,21-Restitution of all Luke 2:10-Jesus will be joy to all people. Titus 2:11-Grace has brought salvation to all men. Rm 8:19-21-Creation set at liberty. Col 1:20-All reconciled unto God. 1Cor 4:5-All will have praise of God. Rm 11:32-All subject to unbelief, mercy on all. Rm 11:36-All from, through, and to him. Eph 4:10-Jesus will fill all things. 1Cor 15:28-God will be all in all. Rm 11:15-Reconciliation of the world. Heb 1:2-Jesus is heir of all things. Jn 17:2-Jesus gives eternal life to all that His Father gave Him-How many did the Father give Him? Answer: Jn 3:35-The Father gave Him all things.
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Darth-Stryphe Title: Saga Manager Registered: Apr '01	Date Posted: 1/28/02 9:12am Subject: RE: The New Testament Teaches That Everyone Will Be Saved. - Date Edited: 1/28/02 9:15am (1 edits total) Edited By: Darth-Stryphe
	So the Christians (who were mostly gentiles) were certainly not going to let Jews explain Jesus's words to them! Actually, that is incorrect. The original first century churches were established by the apolistiles, who were jews, even though the churches themselves were gentile churches (mostly). Paul came to many of the churches, set them up, then would return to teach to them from time to time. Eventualy, the jewish side of Christianity did die out and it became just about 100% gentile, and they did adopt many gentile customs, which can be seen in the catholic church even still, and to a lesser degree, in the prodestants religions. But it's more traditions than teachings that were borrowed from the gentiles. EDIT -- Stryphe, you're getting ahead of me! Let me address your post of 1/25, then I'll try to address your latest post sometime later. LOL! Sorry, I thought it was you who were getting ahead of me. OK, I'll go off and bash the new SW title for a while, let you catch up, then return. -----signature----- Lord of the Script, it's FABULOUSO: http://boards.theforce.net/Star_Wars_Community/b10012/8237772/p1 The Desperate Road: http://boards.theforce.net/your_jedi_council_community/b10008/23481819/p1 I love you, lonely Dewback on the ridge Az Isten áldjon meg!
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Jedilane Registered: Aug '01	Date Posted: 1/29/02 8:47am Subject: RE: The New Testament Teaches That Everyone Will Be Saved.
	Just because grace has saved us, doesn't mean grace saves everyone. The people who do not accept God as a savior do not get saved. Unrepentant sinners do not get saved. Only those who repent and are baptised will be saved. -----signature----- God Bless America...by the way this is not just relavent during hard times. And God bless you too.
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Darth-Stryphe Title: Saga Manager Registered: Apr '01	Date Posted: 1/29/02 12:02pm Subject: RE: The New Testament Teaches That Everyone Will Be Saved. - Date Edited: 1/29/02 12:13pm (2 edits total) Edited By: Darth-Stryphe
	I find it hard to randomly turn to a page in the New Testament and not find blessed assurance that God will save us all. Here are some passages for your consideration: And the good news is, for all who believe in His Son, this blessed assurance your talking about will indeed come to pass. But "Not everyone who says to me (to Jesus) 'Lord, Lord' will enter the kingdom of Heaven." (Matt. 7:20). So then, if not 100% of humanity will be saved, why the use of the word "all"? Well, simple. Remember, Christanity was started by the Jews (Jesus and the 12), preached by Jesus first to the Jews, regarding teachings and prophecies of the OT (which is the Jewish law). Key word hear is "Jewish". The old law, with all it's benefits and blessings, was for the Jews alone. But Jesus's salvation, though taught to the Jews first, was for everyone who believed, regardless of race or nationality. This was difficult for the original disciples and apostiles to accept at first, for it was a revulationary idea. As such, when Jesus's salvation was taught, it was often driven home that it was not reserved for the Jews, but was for "all" (I need not quote the verses, you did that). Was "all" meaning unbelievers and believers alike? No, "all" meant Jewish and gentiles alike. Every nation and race can know Jesus's promise of salvation. -----signature----- Lord of the Script, it's FABULOUSO: http://boards.theforce.net/Star_Wars_Community/b10012/8237772/p1 The Desperate Road: http://boards.theforce.net/your_jedi_council_community/b10008/23481819/p1 I love you, lonely Dewback on the ridge Az Isten áldjon meg!
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Binary_Sunset Registered: Oct '00	Date Posted: 1/30/02 7:24pm Subject: RE: The New Testament Teaches That Everyone Will Be Saved. - Date Edited: 1/30/02 7:27pm (3 edits total) Edited By: Binary_Sunset
	Stryphe, I must commend you on your scholarly abilities. You did a bang-up job on this post (quoted almost in full below). Your words will be in regular font. First: hades. Yes, it is accurately translated "the grave", and yes, that does cause a lot of confusion in today's church. Now, Cyndolia ask about the Bible being mistranlated. Well, come to find out, in old english, the word "hell" had two meanings, and one was "the grave". So when King James got the English translations translated, using the word "hell" was accurate, because he meant "grave" and not "Damnation". However, over the centuries, the English language stopped using hell except in reference to the domain of the devil. Despite this, the original translations were left in, and not changed to "the grave", thus the confusion (actually, I do believe there are some english translations of the Bible that do translate that word as "grave", but I may be wrong). I had forgotten that the English word "hell" has changed in meaning over the centuries. Next; gehenna. Your translation is also correct, in the literal since. Agreed. However, what you did not know is that the Jews used gehenna as a metopher for hell. Being tossed into gehenna was a Jews way of saying being tossed into hell. This is where we disagree. It wasn't until long after the time of Jesus and his apostles that gehenna came to mean "a fiery place that damned souls go to after dying". Click here and scroll down somewhat more than half-way for the section on GEHENNA. In the first century, Gehenna referred to the valley of Hinnom; and only the valley of Hinnom. Of course, it was known as a place of God's judgment; but of this-worldly judgment. Let me support that claim with a little history. The valley of Henna first took on sigficants in Jerusalim during the reign of Solomon. Solomon, late in his life, took to worshipping foreign gods. He dedicate the valley of Henna to be a place where various temples were built for idol worship. Some time after Solomon's rule, the various religions that were practiced in Henna were done away with in favor for the worship of -- darn, I've forgotten the name -- I think it was Moleck (spelling)? Anyway, this god was a dark god and its practices demanded the sacrifice of first born babies, which were thrown into fire and consumed. I didn't get enough detailed information on this, this weekend to tell you how long that went on, but eventually, a jewish king came into power (Josiah -- spelling??). Angry at the barbaric practice of Moleck, Josiah wiped out all his followers and destroyed all his temples, then desecrated the ground in the valley, so that no religious worship of any kind would take place there again. It was then turned into a city's garbage dump. As you said, dead carcasses were thrown there, as well as garbage. This ended up causing a serious health hazard. So it was decreed that a fire should be kept burning there at all times. Again, let me compliment you on your scholarship. Full agreement here. So, it became a place of on-going fire. Yes, but only long after the apostles were dead and gone. The Old Testiment does not talk about Hell, yet the Jews adopted the idea*. It was the jews that decided hell had ever lasting fire. Maybe their idea of what Hell was came from other cultures, maybe from divine prophet never recorded in the Bible, or maybe they made the idea up themselves. I'm not sure on that one. However the came to the knowledge, they had the idea that it was ever lasting fire. Now Genna was a place of ever lasting fire, of sorts, so it became a parrelell, or rather a metaphor for Hell. I do not know if the fires of Genna were still going on in Christ's time or not, but I do know the metaphor was still around. See my comments above.
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Palpazzar Registered: Aug '00	Date Posted: 1/30/02 8:38pm Subject: RE: The New Testament Teaches That Everyone Will Be Saved.
	Just out of curiousity, Binary. If you are right and all will be saved, why should I care what I do? Why believe in God? Why don't I just tell God to back off? I mean afterall, we're all going to get the same reward if you are right. -----signature----- September 11, 2001 - Black Tuesday I was never married to Oprah
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Darth-Stryphe Title: Saga Manager Registered: Apr '01	Date Posted: 1/31/02 11:10am Subject: RE: The New Testament Teaches That Everyone Will Be Saved. - Date Edited: 1/31/02 11:23am (4 edits total) Edited By: Darth-Stryphe
	Stryphe, I must commend you on your scholarly abilities. You did a bang-up job on this post (quoted almost in full below). Thanks for the compliment I had forgotten that the English word "hell" has changed in meaning over the centuries. So had I and have many people, including Christians, which generates much confusion. This is where we disagree. It wasn't until long after the time of Jesus and his apostles that gehenna came to mean "a fiery place that damned souls go to after dying". And we still disagree, although I do not have strong conclusive counter arguments as of yet. However, having read through that article, I'd like to make a few observations: "Josephus was a Pharisee, and wrote at about the time of Christ -- He uses the word Hadees, which the Jews had then obtained from the heathen, but he never uses Gehenna, as he would have done, had it possessed that meaning then.--" First, your argument has just generated a contridiction. You stated that hades meant the grave. I agree it does, but if they were also using it to mean damnation back then, it now begs to wonder, perhaps the translation of "Hell" instead of "grave" in some of those instances is correct. Rebutal? Also, -- "--This demonstrates that the word had no such meaning then." I hate to devalue the scholarly merrit of that article, but not only does that not prove it, it is a weak counter argument. Just because one person doesn't use a word one way doesn't mean to was devoid of meaning in that culture at that time. I know you, Binary, if someone were to use that line of thinking in a TPM debate, you'd tear right into it. "This is proved by the fact of its familiar use in the New Testament, and by the fact of its being found in the Apocrypha books and Jewish Targunis, some of which were written before the time of our Savior." But no such force resides in the word, nor is there a scintilla of evidence that it ever conveyed such an idea until many years after Christ. It is not found in the Apocrypha, Campbell mistakes." I'd like to research that some myself. Is there a website I can do searches on the Apocrypha? Also, did I miss something here? It says here Campell was mistaken about the Apocrypha, but I didn't see them refute his claim about the Targunis.* "It was first used in the modern sense of Hell by Justin Martyr, one hundred and fifty years after Christ." But is there evidence that Justin originate this term (Gehenna = Hell)? Point being, if Justin didn't originate, who did, and how long ago? They don't seem to know for sure. Stryphe: So, it became a place of on-going fire. Binary: Yes, but only long after the apostles were dead and gone. No, I'm talking the historical, literal sense here, not the figuritive sense. Before and during Christ's time, Gehenna had a continual fire there to keep the garbage from contaminating the city. Read here (from the site you sent me to): "After these sacrifices had ceased, the place was desecrated, and made one of loathing and horror. The pious king Josiah caused it to be polluted, i.e., he caused to be carried there the filth of the city of Jerusalem. It would seem that the custom of desecrating this place thus happily begun, was continued in after ages down to the period when our Savior was on earth. Perpetual fires were kept up in order to consume the offal which was deposited there. And as the same offal would breed worms, OK, so point being on that, I am not entirely satisfied that the site you referred to disproves the use of the word Gehenna as Hell, however, it does shed some possible doubt. I'll look into some more, if you have other evidence to support this article, feel free to share it. OK, taking a new angle here, let me ask you a question, Binary. If Jesus saves (and I'm asuming we're on agreement on that), what does he save from? If Hell doesn't exist, and there is only this world and the next, what does he save us from? Why did we need him to die for our sins if Heaven is the only possible alternative to being alive in this world? I am aware that it also does not prove the opposite to be true. I'm just saying, it's really a mute point, worded that way. *I may have overlooked it, so tell me if I did. -----signature----- Lord of the Script, it's FABULOUSO: http://boards.theforce.net/Star_Wars_Community/b10012/8237772/p1 The Desperate Road: http://boards.theforce.net/your_jedi_council_community/b10008/23481819/p1 I love you, lonely Dewback on the ridge Az Isten áldjon meg!
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Darth-Stryphe Title: Saga Manager Registered: Apr '01	Date Posted: 1/31/02 11:27am Subject: RE: The New Testament Teaches That Everyone Will Be Saved.
	Oh, and I have more to add, but another time. Now, [Yoda Voice]it is time for the web designer to eat as well.[/Yoda Voice] -----signature----- Lord of the Script, it's FABULOUSO: http://boards.theforce.net/Star_Wars_Community/b10012/8237772/p1 The Desperate Road: http://boards.theforce.net/your_jedi_council_community/b10008/23481819/p1 I love you, lonely Dewback on the ridge Az Isten áldjon meg!
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Jedilane Registered: Aug '01	Date Posted: 1/31/02 3:06pm Subject: RE: The New Testament Teaches That Everyone Will Be Saved.
	I guess this thread started because you were saying that the NT said everyone will be saved. Then it went to is there really a Hell. Here is where I think is should go next. If we do ALL get saved, why do we need this life? Being saved is going somewhere better and being with God for eternity, right? Well if we are all going to be saved, then we are just going to be with the same people for eternity....whats the point? What are you being saved from? Isn't it a reward to be saved? What kind of reward is it if EVERYONE gets it? And like was said earlier, "Why should I care what I do. Why believe in God?" If people that don't believe in God get saved, (e.g. get the reward) why is it a reward? -----signature----- God Bless America...by the way this is not just relavent during hard times. And God bless you too.
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Jedilane Registered: Aug '01	Date Posted: 1/31/02 3:11pm Subject: RE: The New Testament Teaches That Everyone Will Be Saved.
	You are missing the most obvious section. Matthew 25:31-46 ***************** 31 "When the Son of Man comes in his glory, and all the angels with him, he will sit on his throne in heavenly glory. 32 All the nations will be gathered before him, and he will separate the people one from another as a shepherd separates the sheep from the goats. 33 He will put the sheep on his right and the goats on his left. 34 "Then the King will say to those on his right, `Come, you who are blessed by my Father; take your inheritance, the kingdom prepared for you since the creation of the world. 35 For I was hungry and you gave me something to eat, I was thirsty and you gave me something to drink, I was a stranger and you invited me in, 36 I needed clothes and you clothed me, I was sick and you looked after me, I was in prison and you came to visit me.' 37 "Then the righteous will answer him, `Lord, when did we see you hungry and feed you, or thirsty and give you something to drink? 38 When did we see you a stranger and invite you in, or needing clothes and clothe you? 39 When did we see you sick or in prison and go to visit you?' 40 "The King will reply, `I tell you the truth, whatever you did for one of the least of these brothers of mine, you did for me.' 41 "Then he will say to those on his left, `Depart from me, you who are cursed, into the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels. 42 For I was hungry and you gave me nothing to eat, I was thirsty and you gave me nothing to drink, 43 I was a stranger and you did not invite me in, I needed clothes and you did not clothe me, I was sick and in prison and you did not look after me.' 44 "They also will answer, `Lord, when did we see you hungry or thirsty or a stranger or needing clothes or sick or in prison, and did not help you?' 45 "He will reply, `I tell you the truth, whatever you did not do for one of the least of these, you did not do for me.' 46 "Then they will go away to eternal punishment, but the righteous to eternal life." -----signature----- God Bless America...by the way this is not just relavent during hard times. And God bless you too.
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Binary_Sunset Registered: Oct '00	Date Posted: 1/31/02 6:14pm Subject: RE: The New Testament Teaches That Everyone Will Be Saved.
	Darth Stryphe wrote: "If not 100% of humanity will be saved, why the use of the word "all"? Well, simple. Remember, Christanity was started by the Jews (Jesus and the 12), preached by Jesus first to the Jews, regarding teachings and prophecies of the OT (which is the Jewish law). Key word hear is "Jewish". The old law, with all it's benefits and blessings, was for the Jews alone. But Jesus's salvation, though taught to the Jews first, was for everyone who believed, regardless of race or nationality. This was difficult for the original disciples and apostiles to accept at first, for it was a revulationary idea. As such, when Jesus's salvation was taught, it was often driven home that it was not reserved for the Jews, but was for "all" (I need not quote the verses, you did that). Was "all" meaning unbelievers and believers alike? No, "all" meant Jewish and gentiles alike. Every nation and race can know Jesus's promise of salvation." I understand what you're saying here, but I must disagree. I think the impression a first-time reader gets when reading these is that "all" means "every single individual". Though I must grant you that "all" meaning "some individuals from all nations" is a possible interpretation. In cases like this, I believe that we must go with the interpretation that gives the most glory to God. Which is more glorious: A god who saves only some of his creation; or God, who saves all of his creation?
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Binary_Sunset Registered: Oct '00	Date Posted: 1/31/02 6:20pm Subject: RE: The New Testament Teaches That Everyone Will Be Saved.
	Palpazzar wrote: "Just out of curiousity, Binary. If you are right and all will be saved, why should I care what I do? Why believe in God? Why don't I just tell God to back off?" Here's a question for you, put in all seriousness: If you were convinced that I'm right (that all will be saved, regardless), would you choose to rape children, or murder people, or torture them, or assault them, etc? Of course not. I don't understand how anyone can be an aggressor against other people. I don't need a reason to refrain from murdering, raping, stealing, etc. It would break my heart to do such things.
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Binary_Sunset Registered: Oct '00	Date Posted: 1/31/02 6:49pm Subject: RE: The New Testament Teaches That Everyone Will Be Saved.
	Darth Stryphe, let me answer just one part of your latest post. I'll try to answer the rest later. You wrote: "If Jesus saves (and I'm asuming we're on agreement on that), what does he save from? If Hell doesn't exist, and there is only this world and the next, what does he save us from? Why did we need him to die for our sins if Heaven is the only possible alternative to being alive in this world?" Matthew 1:21: "She will bear a son, and you shall call his name Jesus, for he will save his people from their sins." Note that the angel doesn't say that Jesus will save people from hell, or from the consequences of their sins; the angel says that Jesus will save us from our sins themselves. This means that he will set us free from being sinful. The fact of being sinful is a grievous load to bear. At the resurrection of the dead, we will all be set free of this cursed load. In the meantime, by accepting Christ (which includes obeying him) our load is lightened.
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cydonia Registered: Jun '01	Date Posted: 1/31/02 7:32pm Subject: RE: The New Testament Teaches That Everyone Will Be Saved. - Date Edited: 1/31/02 7:34pm (1 edits total) Edited By: cydonia
	I wonder if people who lived before the NT and our current definition of hell thought, "Man, what's the point of living if we're not saved? I hope an eternal punishment concept is created soon because i am this close to commiting genocide. Again." People lived their lives, i am going to guess, fairly close to how we live our own lives today. Sure things were different in many ways, but i think basically human nature doesn't change. How were they able to be normal, non-murdering people (like most of us tend to be, yes?) without an idea of Jesus and/or eternal damnation? I don't know. But they were. I reject the idea that the only thing that makes people act in a moral, considerate fashion is the fear there may be some mysterious eternal punishment if they don't. -----signature----- when you're born a lover, you're born to suffer- Like all soul sisters and soul brothers
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