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Topic:
The New Testament Teaches That Everyone Will Be Saved.
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Palpazzar
Registered:
Aug '00
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Date Posted:
1/31/02 7:57pm
Subject:
RE: The New Testament Teaches That Everyone Will Be Saved.
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Cydonia I reject the same idea. People will not change for fear of punishment. You may be surprised to know the Bible says that fear is not the way either.
Ok, Binary, a couple of questions (no offense just covering the bases):
1). Do you believe in the Bible as God's true word?
2). Do you believe what God says about himself?
3). Do you believe what God says about the nature of things such as sin, death, angels, etc.?
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I was never married to Oprah
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cydonia
Registered:
Jun '01
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Date Posted:
1/31/02 8:02pm
Subject:
RE: The New Testament Teaches That Everyone Will Be Saved.
- Date Edited:
1/31/02 8:03pm (1 edits total)
Edited By:
cydonia
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Palpazzar, it seems you're turning my words around a bit. I don't think people stay the same for fear of punishment, either. If you are naturally not a murderer, rapist, or theif, the idea of hell isn't going to make you want to do those things anyway.
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Palpazzar
Registered:
Aug '00
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Date Posted:
1/31/02 8:46pm
Subject:
RE: The New Testament Teaches That Everyone Will Be Saved.
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I don't think I'm turning them around, but if I am forgive me. It is unintentional.
All I am saying is that fear will not cause a change to do or not do those things. I thought that was the spirit of what you were saying.
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September 11, 2001 - Black Tuesday
I was never married to Oprah
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fishmoe
Registered:
Jan '02
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Date Posted:
1/31/02 8:48pm
Subject:
RE: The New Testament Teaches That Everyone Will Be Saved.
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i cant remember where but someone in the bible says "not one is righteos not even one"
and
"the path that leads to good is narrow and few shall enter"
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cydonia
Registered:
Jun '01
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Date Posted:
1/31/02 8:57pm
Subject:
RE: The New Testament Teaches That Everyone Will Be Saved.
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Sorry palpazzar, i guess i misunderstood.
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Binary_Sunset
Registered:
Oct '00
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Date Posted:
1/31/02 9:39pm
Subject:
RE: The New Testament Teaches That Everyone Will Be Saved.
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Palpazzar wrote: "Ok, Binary, a couple of questions (no offense just covering the bases):
No offense taken, not even close. It's obvious that you're a kind person. So ask away!
1). Do you believe in the Bible as God's true word?
Yes. I am not a fundamentalist in that I believe that there can be minor factual errors in the Bible, but I don't believe that there are any errors that matter. For example, if the Bible said King Such-and-So reigned for 28 years, but it was really only 24 years, that wouldn't bother me. I believe that every single miracle recorded in the Bible really happened.
2). Do you believe what God says about himself?
If this question is the same question as, "Do you believe what the Bible says about God?" then the answer is yes. I don't believe in any general revelations of God outside of the Bible.
3). Do you believe what God says about the nature of things such as sin, death, angels, etc.?
I do indeed believe this, if what you're asking is if I believe what the Bible teaches regarding sin, death, angels, etc.
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Darth-Stryphe
Title: Saga Manager
Registered:
Apr '01
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Date Posted:
2/1/02 9:45am
Subject:
RE: The New Testament Teaches That Everyone Will Be Saved.
- Date Edited:
2/1/02 10:03am (6 edits total)
Edited By:
Darth-Stryphe
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In cases like this, I believe that we must go with the interpretation that gives the most glory to God. Which is more glorious: A god who saves only some of his creation; or God, who saves all of his creation?
But then you are suggesting that the salvation of the unrightous, the evil, and those who openly reject God gives glory to God. What glory is there in that? Remember, God is a just God. Look at it like this, what glory to our justice system would it be to catch Bin Ludin, and send him to a tropical paradise where he couldn't hurt anyone anymore, but he'd have all the pleasures this world has to offer.
I see much glory in a God who will save the repentant, no matter how grievous and many their sins. I see glory in a God who would forgive even Bin Ludin if he sought his forgiveness. I do not see any instances in the Bible of God rewarding and/or forgiving evil people who did not/do not seek His forgiveness.
Also, consider two things: 1) You admit my translation could be accurate, though you personally don't believe it to be accurate (I mention this only in hopes you'll continue to give my views some thought), and (2) The verses Jedilane listed above. Jesus clearly states that when the Kingdom comes, he'll divide the saved from the unsaved.
Here's a question for you, put in all seriousness: If you were convinced that I'm right (that all will be saved, regardless), would you choose to rape children, or murder people, or torture them, or assault them, etc? Of course not.
Hmmm, not a good argument. Your talking extremes. Is lying a sin? Is cheating a sin? Look, a life of sin has a lot to offer: riches, pleasures, power, popularity. Now, I have an honest desire to do what's right and please God, a desire that does not come from fear, but at the same time, I must remind myself that "the wages of sin is death" (Romans 6). Why? Because I find much desire in riches and pleasures that are not wholey good. Now, you may rebutal by saying that Roman 6 speaks of a physical death only. Hey, we ALL die. You can't honestly tell me that ever dishonest business man, swindler, or crooked politian comes to a bad end in this life, can you?
As Palpazzar said, fear does not make one rightous, fear does not change ones heart to do good or save a soul. That's not really the point, the point is you can't have your cake and eat it, too.
Matthew 1:21: "She will bear a son, and you shall call his name Jesus, for he will save his people from their sins."
Note that the angel doesn't say that Jesus will save people from hell, or from the consequences of their sins; the angel says that Jesus will save us from our sins themselves.
But if our sins seperate us from God, causing us to loose our chance at salvation, don't we need Jesus to save us from our sins?
If you had cancer, would you ask the doctor to (a) save your life or (b) to cure your cancer? Either one, in this case, means the same. If he saves your life, he'll cure your cancer. If he cures your cancer, he'll save your life.
Once again, "-for the wages of sin are death."
This means that he will set us free from being sinful. The fact of being sinful is a grievous load to bear. At the resurrection of the dead, we will all be set free of this cursed load. In the meantime, by accepting Christ (which includes obeying him) our load is lightened.
And I wholeheartedly agree with this. However, this doesn't refute the existance of damnation.
OK, Binary, before you reply to the above, I am more curious in your response to two things, first:
1) Matthew 7's seperation of the sheep from the lambs quote which Jedilane mentioned above.
2) Jesus's statement "for not all who say 'Lord,Lord' will enter the kingdom of Heaven" (also in Matt 7, I believe).
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Darkside_Spirit
Registered:
Sep '01
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Date Posted:
2/1/02 10:31am
Subject:
RE: The New Testament Teaches That Everyone Will Be Saved.
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Why does an all-powerful, omnipotent God need to become a man and then be murdered in order to forgive humanity anyway?
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Jedilane
Registered:
Aug '01
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Date Posted:
2/1/02 10:51am
Subject:
RE: The New Testament Teaches That Everyone Will Be Saved.
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I think the verse you were refering to is:
Matthew 7:13-14
13
"Enter through the narrow gate. For wide is the gate and broad is the road that leads to destruction, and many enter through it.
14
But small is the gate and narrow the road that leads to life, and only a few find it."
Refering to those who would follow Jesus and be saved.
See, not all will make it.
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God Bless America...by the way this is not just relavent during hard times.
And God bless you too.
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Jedi_Master201
Registered:
May '01
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Date Posted:
2/2/02 12:12pm
Subject:
RE: The New Testament Teaches That Everyone Will Be Saved.
- Date Edited:
2/2/02 12:13pm (1 edits total)
Edited By:
Jedi_Master201
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D_S, God had to come and take our place. He wasn't just going to say, "These are the consequences of disobeying Me. But if you disobey Me, the consequences won't matter, all will be well.  " To every action there is a reaction. Some one had to pay for the crimes we committed, and God didn't want it to be us. He took our place, and He could only do that by becoming man.
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Admiral JM201 - Wraith 12, AotCDF
http://witnessincontrast.org/NewWIC/NewWebDesign/CreationVideos/creation_videos.htm
[The Lord of the Rings reigns over all other works of fiction]
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cydonia
Registered:
Jun '01
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Date Posted:
2/2/02 12:14pm
Subject:
RE: The New Testament Teaches That Everyone Will Be Saved.
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"Some one had to pay for the crimes we committed, and God didn't want it to be us."
But we pay for our crimes of non-Jesus worship when we go to hell.
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Jedi_Master201
Registered:
May '01
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Date Posted:
2/2/02 12:26pm
Subject:
RE: The New Testament Teaches That Everyone Will Be Saved.
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Well, of course. You have to accept Jesus's sacrifice. It's be like if I handed you twenty bucks because you needed it for something and you didn't have the money. You'd have to take the money, I couldn't just make you take it. Jesus's sacrifice is a gift. You have to accept it. And if you do, then your sins will be covered. Now, does this mean you can go on living as you please? No, of course not. Sin hurts you as well as others. Out of greatfulness of the gift God gave you, you should try to honer Him, and not hurt others. Only a sick, twisted person would use Jesus to do as they please, and I doubt God really considers them saved if they did.
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Admiral JM201 - Wraith 12, AotCDF
http://witnessincontrast.org/NewWIC/NewWebDesign/CreationVideos/creation_videos.htm
[The Lord of the Rings reigns over all other works of fiction]
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Darkside_Spirit
Registered:
Sep '01
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Date Posted:
2/2/02 12:53pm
Subject:
RE: The New Testament Teaches That Everyone Will Be Saved.
- Date Edited:
2/2/02 12:54pm (1 edits total)
Edited By:
Darkside_Spirit
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If God really did become a man and get murdered in order to forgive humanity, why would he shroud this immense act in very dubious historical evidence, and why would he waste his sacrifice by only giving it to the people who believe it happened?
No-one has rejected redemption from sin, if sin exists. Assuming your doctrine is correct, people have done nothing except come to an incorrect conclusion as to fact.
If you offer someone a $100 cheque (for charitable purposes) and they refuse it, fine. They can't be forced to take it.
Supposing, on the other hand, you plant vague references that you have a $100 cheque to give. There are other references pointing to different $100 cheques, but only yours is real. If someone happens to follow up the wrong reference, and becomes empty-handed, they haven't rejected your offer of $100. They've simply made the wrong choice as to which references are true.
Connecting this to the point I made above, if you had $100 to give, why waste it by planting vague references to it amid many other false references when it would be much better used just by walking up to the person and giving it to them?
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Jedi_Master201
Registered:
May '01
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Date Posted:
2/2/02 1:01pm
Subject:
RE: The New Testament Teaches That Everyone Will Be Saved.
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No other references have been made. Sure, there have been others that tell how to live a good life, but none other than Jesus have provided the spiritual reurrection that is needed after the spiritual death we get when we sin.
As for the vague refrences, they are only vague because you don't want them to be real. There's plenty of evidence, and plenty of people have chosen to follow these refrences. They are there. But you have to want them.
Ever wonder why Jesus taught in parables? There's your answer. He who has 'ears' to 'hear', let him 'hear'.
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Admiral JM201 - Wraith 12, AotCDF
http://witnessincontrast.org/NewWIC/NewWebDesign/CreationVideos/creation_videos.htm
[The Lord of the Rings reigns over all other works of fiction]
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cydonia
Registered:
Jun '01
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Date Posted:
2/2/02 1:08pm
Subject:
RE: The New Testament Teaches That Everyone Will Be Saved.
- Date Edited:
2/2/02 1:10pm (1 edits total)
Edited By:
cydonia
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Mar 4:10 And when he was alone, they that were about him with the twelve asked of him the parable.
Mar 4:11 And he said unto them, Unto you it is given to know the mystery of the kingdom of God: but unto them that are without, all [these] things are done in parables:
Mar 4:12 That seeing they may see, and not perceive; and hearing they may hear, and not understand; lest at any time they should be converted, and [their] sins should be forgiven them.
Sounds like the parables are there to confuse people. Because if they really understood what he was saying, their sins would be forgiven. Why he would not want them to be forgiven in the first place i suppose is another discussion.
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