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Topic:
The New Testament Teaches That Everyone Will Be Saved.
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Jedi_Master201
Registered:
May '01
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Date Posted:
2/2/02 1:14pm
Subject:
RE: The New Testament Teaches That Everyone Will Be Saved.
- Date Edited:
2/2/02 1:15pm (1 edits total)
Edited By:
Jedi_Master201
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"Mar 4:11 And he said unto them, Unto you it is given to know the mystery of the kingdom of God: but unto them that are without, all [these] things are done in parables:
Mar 4:12 That seeing they may see, and not perceive; and hearing they may hear, and not understand; lest at any time they should be converted, and [their] sins should be forgiven them."
To them that are without the faith to believe the parables. Jesus taught this way so that only those that want to 'hear' will 'hear'.
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Admiral JM201 - Wraith 12, AotCDF
http://witnessincontrast.org/NewWIC/NewWebDesign/CreationVideos/creation_videos.htm
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cydonia
Registered:
Jun '01
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Date Posted:
2/2/02 1:19pm
Subject:
RE: The New Testament Teaches That Everyone Will Be Saved.
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So his disciples didn't need the parables, they got the straight word and were saved. The foolish masses had to have it clouded for them, in order for them to be tested. Too bad the foolish masses weren't given the straight word. Seems like they were at a disadvantage, and the disciples didn't have to worry about brain puzzles. What's the point in that? Why not just be upfront and clear for everyone? Why add those extra hurdles to salvation, when others didn't have to worry about those hurdles?
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Wylding
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Aug '00
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Date Posted:
2/2/02 1:25pm
Subject:
RE: The New Testament Teaches That Everyone Will Be Saved.
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When are you guys going to learn that Binary is going to ignore all exclusive comments that Christ, Paul, John, Luke or anyone else make about the kingdom of heaven?
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Angelic_308
Registered:
Jan '02
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Date Posted:
2/2/02 1:25pm
Subject:
RE: The New Testament Teaches That Everyone Will Be Saved.
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Here's scripture telling that some people will go to hell.... Revelation 20: 11-15
“Then I saw a great white throne and him who was seated on it. Earth and sky
fled from his presence, and there was no place for them. And I saw the dead, great and small, standing
before the throne, and books were opened. Another book was opened, which is the book of life. The
dead were judged according to what they had done as recorded in the books. The sea gave up the dead
that were in it, as death and Hades gave up the dead that were in them, and each person was judged
according to what he had done. Then death and Hades were thrown into the lake of fire. The lake of fire
is the second death. If anyone’s name was not found written in the book of life, he was thrown into the
lake of fire.”
The lake of Fire is Hell.If thats still not what you want heres anouther.
Matthew 13 verse 49-50
"So it will be at the end of the age. The angels will come forth, separate the wicked from among the just, and cast them into the furnace of fire. There will be wailing and gnashing of teeth"
in this verse the furnace is hell.
And if you want a story (or parable) about a man who went to hell, go to Luke 16 verse 19 - 31 (I'm not typeing up the whole story so read it in your bible) A verse in this parable
Luke 16 verse 23 - 24 says "And being in torments in in Hades he lifted up and saw Abraham afar off, and Lazarus in his bosom. Then he cried and said, 'Father Abraham, have mercy on me, and send lazarus that he may dip the tip of his finger in water and cool my tongue; for I am tormented in this flame" in here Hades is one name for Hell.
And if you still need more goto
2 Peter 2 verse 4 "For if God did not spare the angels who sinned, but cast them down to hell and delivered them into chains of darkness, to be reserved for judgment."
As far as I'm conserned there is a Hell, it's just as real as Heaven.
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Jesus Loves you... He has a plan for Your life!
Chairwoman of the Galactic Defenders...Level 10.
Official Jedi Master of blowing things up.
I refuse to be just anouther helpless victim..
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Jedi_Master201
Registered:
May '01
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Date Posted:
2/2/02 1:27pm
Subject:
RE: The New Testament Teaches That Everyone Will Be Saved.
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Why does God place some in Christian families to be raised with the Christian faith, while others He places in Hindu families to be raised in that religion? I'll tell you whyu. Some He chooses to bring others to bring to Christ. If He didn't explain the parables to the apostels, He wouldn't have anyone to "teach the foolish masses". But, as Judas Iscariot proved, some who have the straight forward word don't always believe it. I've known many people who were raised in a Christian family, with the straight-forward word, who have rejected it.
The apostles didn't have any advantage over the foolish masses, other than the fact that Christ chose them to teach others.
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Admiral JM201 - Wraith 12, AotCDF
http://witnessincontrast.org/NewWIC/NewWebDesign/CreationVideos/creation_videos.htm
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cydonia
Registered:
Jun '01
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Date Posted:
2/2/02 1:27pm
Subject:
RE: The New Testament Teaches That Everyone Will Be Saved.
- Date Edited:
2/2/02 1:29pm (1 edits total)
Edited By:
cydonia
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Luke 8-10
And his disciples asked him, "What do you speak in parables?"
9. And he said, "Because you are permitted to know the mysteries of the kingdom of God, but to others it is said in parables, so that seeing they may not see, and hearing they may not understand."
BUT TO OTHERS it is said in parables.
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Angelic_308
Registered:
Jan '02
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Date Posted:
2/2/02 1:31pm
Subject:
RE: The New Testament Teaches That Everyone Will Be Saved.
- Date Edited:
2/2/02 1:46pm (3 edits total)
Edited By:
Angelic_308
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Here's scripture telling that some people will go to hell
Matthew 13 verse 49-50
"So it will be at the end of the age. The angels will come forth, separate the wicked from among the just, and cast them into the furnace of fire. There will be wailing and gnashing of teeth"
in this verse the furnace is hell.
And if you want a story (or parable) about a man who went to hell, go to Luke 16 verse 19 - 31 (I'm not typeing up the whole story so read it in your bible) A verse in this parable
Luke 16 verse 23 - 24 says "And being in torments in in Hades he lifted up and saw Abraham afar off, and Lazarus in his bosom. Then he cried and said, 'Father Abraham, have mercy on me, and send lazarus that he may dip the tip of his finger in water and cool my tongue; for I am tormented in this flame" in here Hades is one name for Hell.
And if you still need more goto
2 Peter 2 verse 4 "For if God did not spare the angels who sinned, but cast them down to hell and delivered them into chains of darkness, to be reserved for judgment."
As far as I'm conserned there is a Hell, it's just as real as Heaven. I know nouthing I can put on here will change your mind But I will pray for you.
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Jesus Loves you... He has a plan for Your life!
Chairwoman of the Galactic Defenders...Level 10.
Official Jedi Master of blowing things up.
I refuse to be just anouther helpless victim..
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Jedi_Master201
Registered:
May '01
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Date Posted:
2/2/02 1:31pm
Subject:
RE: The New Testament Teaches That Everyone Will Be Saved.
- Date Edited:
2/2/02 1:32pm (1 edits total)
Edited By:
Jedi_Master201
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That verse, Cydonia, does not express a desire that some would not understand, but simply states the sad truth that those who are not willing to receive Jesus's message will find the truth hidden from them.
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http://witnessincontrast.org/NewWIC/NewWebDesign/CreationVideos/creation_videos.htm
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cydonia
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Jun '01
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Date Posted:
2/2/02 1:38pm
Subject:
RE: The New Testament Teaches That Everyone Will Be Saved.
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So the apostles were more loved by Jesus? Since he chose them to teach, they got a better chance at heaven than the regular people who got the parables? What if he hadn't spoken plain to the disciples, but in parables? They were ordinary people too, they may have been confused by them and not understand. Then they would be condemned to death. But Jesus wouldn't have that, he made abolutely sure they understood what he was saying. The rest of the world didn't get the same treatment. Their path to heaven was deliberately more difficult.
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Jedi_Master201
Registered:
May '01
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Date Posted:
2/2/02 1:40pm
Subject:
RE: The New Testament Teaches That Everyone Will Be Saved.
- Date Edited:
2/2/02 1:48pm (1 edits total)
Edited By:
Jedi_Master201
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God needed some to teach others. He didn't love them more, He just had to reveal to them what His parables meant, so that they could reveal to others. Much like He did with the prophets of the OT.
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http://witnessincontrast.org/NewWIC/NewWebDesign/CreationVideos/creation_videos.htm
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Wylding
Registered:
Aug '00
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Date Posted:
2/2/02 1:43pm
Subject:
RE: The New Testament Teaches That Everyone Will Be Saved.
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I think that there were secrets given to the apostles that were not given to us. However, this does not nulllify Christ's sacrifice for our sins. It just means that the path to the Kingdom is narrow and the path to destruction is wide and well traveled.
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cydonia
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Jun '01
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Date Posted:
2/2/02 1:49pm
Subject:
RE: The New Testament Teaches That Everyone Will Be Saved.
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"He didn't love them more, He just had to reveal to them what His parables meant, so that they could reveal to others."
I thought a large part of being christian was witnessing to others. We've already established that parables can be inherantly confusing. How can God expect christians relying on parables to have a better or at least equal success rate than the disciples, who didn't have to rely on parables? What was so special about that one period in history? Clearly Jesus knew that 2000 years later people would still have the same doubts as the original parable listeners.
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Jedi_Master201
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May '01
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Date Posted:
2/2/02 1:54pm
Subject:
RE: The New Testament Teaches That Everyone Will Be Saved.
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That's why the apostles wrote the explainations of the parables down. The parables are more of a symbol that God reveals things to everyone. Some He reveals more to others, so that they can teach with what has been shown to them. But everyone hears. Some just choose not to accept.
You really think that every person that heard Jesus's parables didn't understand? Why were there other followers of Jesus at His ascension? Because they 'heard' the parables. They didn't need the explaination.
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Admiral JM201 - Wraith 12, AotCDF
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Darth-Stryphe
Title: Saga Manager
Registered:
Apr '01
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Date Posted:
2/3/02 6:38pm
Subject:
RE: The New Testament Teaches That Everyone Will Be Saved.
- Date Edited:
2/3/02 6:59pm (4 edits total)
Edited By:
Darth-Stryphe
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So the apostles were more loved by Jesus? Since he chose them to teach, they got a better chance at heaven than the regular people who got the parables? What if he hadn't spoken plain to the disciples, but in parables?
Cydonia, although I do agree with what Jedi_Master201 is saying, there is something he hasn't pointed out that I think might help you appreciate what Jesus was doing with the apostle's and with parables.
The coming of the Messiah was long foretold by God. Some prophecies of it go back as far as Abraham (the first Jew). Over the centuries, the Jews heard that a savior would come, that he'd be of the bloodline of David (their greatest king), and that he would set up a new kingdom. From this, they assumed the Messiah would come, take the thrown, and lead the Jews into a golden new age of prosperity. They believed the Messiah would be a king* (in the literal sense), not a teacher, and that his kingdom would be a political and phyiscal one, not a spiritual one. When Jesus came, he came during a time of Roman occuption, a time when the Jews felt enslaved by the Romans and when their own kings were subservant to Caesar. They wanted to be free of Rome, and when rumor came about that the Messiah had come, it was assumed that whoever he was, he would overthrow Rome, and restore the glory of Israel, thus fulfilling the prophecy.
Jesus was the Messiah that prophecy spoke of for so long, but he wasn't coming to set up a political/physical government. That was mis-interption on part of the Jews in regards to the prophecies. Jesus had come for something greater, to set up a spiritual kingdom where all may be saved, Jews and gentiles a like.
OK, so I know what you're thinking -- this is all good and fine, but what does it have to do with Him speaking in parables instead of just telling it straight? Simple. As I said, the Jews felt enslaved and wanted freedom. They didn't want to hear about Eternal Salvation or a New Law. They were content with the Old Law. What they wanted was for Jesus to take the thrown away from Caesar. So Jesus had to walk a fine line. He had to get the Jews to understand that he was the Messiah, but that he wasn't coming to be a political king. This fine line ended up getting him crusified. Had he, on the first day of his mission, stood up and told the masses the way it really was, he would have been crusified on the first day of his mission. Then we wouldn't have had all the lessons and teachings that Jesus gave us, and we wouldn't have had the 12. The 12 were critical to his plan. Jesus had to have his missionary work on this Earth last for a few years, so that he could prepare the 12 to do the real soul winning. He gave them all the knowledge they needed, and he made that knowledge available to everyone in his teachings by putting it in parables (for reasons given above), for those who were ready to understand. (And note, some of the time he was cut and dry about certain things.)
Once Jesus was killed and resurrected and returned to Heaven, the prophecy was fulfilled, and so there was no need to be mysterious about Jesus's mission on Earth any longer. As such, you can see in the apostle's teachings, they didn't speak in parables, but just told it out right.
*The Jews were correct in assuming Christ would be King, but his thrown is in Heaven, not in the palace of King David. While he was on Earth, his role was to be a teacher.
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Darkside_Spirit
Registered:
Sep '01
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Date Posted:
2/4/02 9:12am
Subject:
RE: The New Testament Teaches That Everyone Will Be Saved.
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Angelic_308, Binary_Sunset actually states that he will not, in this thread, deal with Revelation. If you want to discuss the ludicrous rantings contained in that text, head over to the topic dedicated to it.
Revelation is a very doubtful book. I'm personally convinced by the internal evidence indicating that it was originally written as a Jewish text and then 'Christianised', but no-one knows for certain where it came from. There have been loads of weird books written by all sorts of deluded people; why do you believe Revelation just because the early church chose to incorporate it into the Bible?
This is all off-topic, however. Like I said, there is a separate topic dealing with the ins and outs of the Revelation to John (whoever this nebulous 'John' was).
Darth-Stryphe, you're very snooty about the Jews in your promotion of a religion that has no more supporting evidence than theirs.
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