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Topic:
Why is it so important for those of you who are religious to convert others?
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Palpazzar
Registered:
Aug '00
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Date Posted:
1/26/02 10:32pm
Subject:
RE: Why is it so important for those of you who are religious to convert others?
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A choice is nothing more than a decision between two options. The consequences do not determine if something is a choice or not.
But you would be hard pressed to find a true Christian that was a Christian because of fear. Read 1 John 4:18. Fear is not the basis of love and God knows that.
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September 11, 2001 - Black Tuesday
I was never married to Oprah
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TreeCave
Registered:
Jul '01
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Date Posted:
1/26/02 10:49pm
Subject:
RE: Why is it so important for those of you who are religious to convert others?
- Date Edited:
1/26/02 10:51pm (1 edits total)
Edited By:
TreeCave
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Palpazzar, if a choice is a choice is a choice, then I guess if a rapist demands you let him rape you or else he will kill you, and you choose to be raped.... you consented, and it wasn't really rape at all?
Sorry if my example offends, but this is a REALLY slippery logic slope.
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Jedi_Master201
Registered:
May '01
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Date Posted:
1/26/02 10:56pm
Subject:
RE: Why is it so important for those of you who are religious to convert others?
- Date Edited:
1/26/02 11:09pm (2 edits total)
Edited By:
Jedi_Master201
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Eh, first off, the problem you have with this choice between God and death can hardly be compared to being raped and being put to death. Following the God of the Bible is a noble act. It does more better for the world than it does worse. Please don't give me examples of people using the Bible to do wrong, because they are not truly follwonig God, but rather folloing themselves.
As to your point, this really cannot be compared to being a Christian or going to hell, because being a Christian cannot be compared to being raped.
And if he consented, it wouldn't be rape, because he agreed to it. It would be rape if he didn't agree, and yet the guy still did it to him.
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Palpazzar
Registered:
Aug '00
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Date Posted:
1/26/02 11:18pm
Subject:
RE: Why is it so important for those of you who are religious to convert others?
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Well, I have the choice to lose my life now don't I? Options do not have to be pretty for it to be a choice.
Think of the moral dilemas in war. If you were ordered to go on a suicide mission, would you? If you chose to, you would die. If you didn't you might be costing the lives of your friends. Certainly, you would face consequences for not doing it. Not pretty, but a choice.
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September 11, 2001 - Black Tuesday
I was never married to Oprah
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TreeCave
Registered:
Jul '01
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Date Posted:
1/26/02 11:32pm
Subject:
RE: Why is it so important for those of you who are religious to convert others?
- Date Edited:
1/26/02 11:34pm (1 edits total)
Edited By:
TreeCave
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Eh, first off, the problem you have with this choice between God and death can hardly be compared to being raped and being put to death.
Sure it can. If you sincerely believe, after great soul-searching, that the biblical God is not what he claims - a loving creator - then to follow him would be exactly like being spiritually raped.
I am sadly not too shocked by your comments regarding consent and rape. This is where the dualism of Christianity and Islam becomes such a dangerous, unloving thing. If the dualism of your faith forces you to align sex had under threat of death with a consensual act of love (or at least recreation), then that reaffirms the widely held view that Christianity is nothing more than a smokescreen for hate. Ah, well. (shrug)
How about if the rapist said, "Screw me, or I'm killing your kids" and you let him have sex with you. Is that consent?
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Palpazzar
Registered:
Aug '00
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Date Posted:
1/26/02 11:41pm
Subject:
RE: Why is it so important for those of you who are religious to convert others?
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Treecave, what exactly is it that you want? In Christianity there is the choice to obey or not. The consequence go with those decisions. Do you want there to be no consequences for our actions?
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September 11, 2001 - Black Tuesday
I was never married to Oprah
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cydonia
Registered:
Jun '01
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Date Posted:
1/26/02 11:49pm
Subject:
RE: Why is it so important for those of you who are religious to convert others?
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"Following the God of the Bible is a noble act. It does more better for the world than it does worse. Please don't give me examples of people using the Bible to do wrong, because they are not truly follwonig God, but rather folloing themselves."
"When a man strikes his slave, male or female, with a rod and the slave dies under his hand, he shall be punished. But if the slave survives a day or two, he is not to be punished; for the slave is his money."
..........Exodus 21:20
"Now therefore, kill every male among the little ones, and kill every woman who has known man by lying with him. But all the young girls who have not known man by lying with him, keep alive for yourselves."
..........Numbers 31:17 (Moses)
"Happy shall he be who takes your little ones and dashes them against the rock!"
..........Psalms 137:9
"Thus saith the LORD, Behold, I will raise up evil against thee out of thine own house, and I will take thy wives before thine eyes, and give [them] unto thy neighbour, and he shall lie with thy wives in the sight of this sun."
..........2 Samuel 12:11
"Let your women keep silence in the churches: for it is not permitted unto them to speak; but [they are commanded] to be under obedience, as also saith the law.
And if they will learn any thing, let them ask their husbands at home: for it is a shame for women to speak in the church."
..........1 Corinthians 14:34,35
Noble? In what sense?
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Palpazzar
Registered:
Aug '00
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Date Posted:
1/26/02 11:55pm
Subject:
RE: Why is it so important for those of you who are religious to convert others?
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To answer you honestly Cydonia, it is noble in that it is God. I know you won't like that answer, but that's the way it is. He is in charge and calls the shots.
Of course if a person doesn't believe in God, then they shouldn't worry about it. But if a person does believe in God - as in a totally righteous supreme being - then God created all, owns all, and can do with it as he pleases.
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I was never married to Oprah
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cydonia
Registered:
Jun '01
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Date Posted:
1/27/02 12:04am
Subject:
RE: Why is it so important for those of you who are religious to convert others?
- Date Edited:
1/27/02 12:06am (1 edits total)
Edited By:
cydonia
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Does that make it morally right though? As a human you find that to be an acceptable course of action, or it's an acceptable course of action "just because".
Anyway, those verses don't fit in with my idea of "noble", but words do have different meanings sometimes, i suppose.
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TreeCave
Registered:
Jul '01
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Date Posted:
1/27/02 1:10am
Subject:
RE: Why is it so important for those of you who are religious to convert others?
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Palpazzar, I don't want anything. I'm just demonstrating that Christianity isn't the only take on how things work. Honestly, no other religion insists everyone who disagrees with it is going to hell! And when I was raised Christian, no one I knew believed that either. Christianity is riddled with the disease of such beliefs.
Please don't suggest that non-Christians don't understand responsibility and consequences for actions. That's one of the most ignorant beliefs modern Christians hold. One of the reasons I left Christianity was that I felt it encouraged people NOT to take responsibility for the right things. I know atheists who have a better developed code of ethics/morals than 95% of the Christians I've known.
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Darth Geist
Registered:
Oct '99
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Date Posted:
1/27/02 2:58am
Subject:
RE: Why is it so important for those of you who are religious to convert others?
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"It is noble in that it is God."
Here's a question: Could God ever do anything that you would consider evil?
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"The key to enlightenment, then, is recognizing the basic goodness of all things.
Youth and old age, life and death, happiness and sorrow, all have their place
and we must learn to let them come and go in their time, without attachment or aversion."
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Darth_SnowDog
Registered:
Sep '01
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Date Posted:
1/27/02 9:22am
Subject:
RE: Why is it so important for those of you who are religious to convert others?
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JM_201: You can't compare rape to Christianity? I beg to differ. The people who were raped by the Crusaders beg to differ. The people whose cultures have been annihilated, their women raped, their homes plundered... beg to differ.
This kind of a God who would allow his people to rape in his name is nothing more than a fabrication of the mind used for centuries to justify rape... rape of people, rape of knowledge, rape of cultures.
What the hell kind of God is this that your lovely, lofty Christians would ever have any history of bloodshed whatsoever?
I also find it incredibly ludicrous that any time a Christian does something right.. he's automatically "one of us"... but of course if a Christian does something selfish, evil, horrid... he's automatically "one of them... not one of us."
That is the biggest escapist crap ever sold to the public at large. I'm not claiming a religious leader, or a religion has to be absolutely perfect... none of them are, because they all, Christianity included, are man-made fabrications so far from the truth of god, if there is such a thing, that they are designed only to serve human purposes. This crap about "God making man in his image..." is just as arbitrary and stupid a backpedaling explanation as me saying, "Well, I know I killed my neighbor and raped his wife, but I'm excused because God has already had someone die for my sins."
Let me see... how many times have I seen Christians whose family members were raped just cave in and say, "Well, you know... the guy who did it was a Christian, so I forgive him." Hell no! They would love to see the guy fry, at least 99 times out of 100. Christians are no loftier in their ideals than Buddhists or Satanists.
The irony is that I've seen more Christians force their views upon others and often threaten them, either deliberately or suggestively, with fear of persecution than I have seen any Satanist do so. Christian institutions throughout history have sponsored more bloodshed than the worst Satanic cults could dream of on their most glorious day of sacrifice.
Forcing your views upon another individual, another culture, another group of believers... whether by the threat of persecution or by being incredibly, cleverly suggestive... (e.g. "Oh, I don't shove it down peoples throats... but my God is right... and they can do what they want, they're just going to hell if they don't listen... that's all")... you might as well be delivering an ultimatum, as cydonia and TreeCave have pointed out.
if this is your God... a wrathful, egotistical, hellfire spitting, paradoxical curmudgeon who would bring a child into this world only for selfish desires... and then cast it into the oven when it isn't loved unconditionally under the threat of punishment... you can worship whomever you please... but if you dared bring this God to my doorstep, I'd tell him and his "do-gooder" proselytizing minions to go to hell.
Palpazzar, I guess you don't realize that there isn't any black or white in the universe... man has abused Christianity and other religious institutions since their inception for the sake of justifying hierarchies that need not exist. I don't expect you to understand it, without having explored how other cultures have survived since the beginning of time. But then conveniently, your elders have raped you of the ability to gain this knowledge by saying it's wrong for you to question... wrong for you to learn about other beliefs.
Nothing, no law, no "thou shalt not" from even God himself has actually stopped people from doing what bad they're going to do... not even fundamentalist Christians.
Do you want there to be no consequences for our actions?
It's so very ironic that you say this... because the "diplomatic immunity" of God is the banner of imaginary righteousness that Christians hide under every time they do something wrong... instead of admitting that they did, and accepting responsibility for their actions... either God dictated they kill someone, or the Devil made them listen to rock music... there's no in between, no gray area, and certainly no accountability...
except perhaps in those few instances where individuals like anakin_girl have been spoonfed these beliefs but have brains enough to distill out the dogmatic crap and go right to the heart of Jesus' benevolent teachings.
Take a cue from Gandhi... a man who, singlehandedly taught the world that nonviolence can have a larger impact than war... His teachings inspired the entire civil rights movement. I consider him to be as great a spiritual symbol as Christ, perhaps even greater. If you even think of contradicting me there with your "Jesus was of divine origin"... How can you assume God didn't send Gandhi? Because your little "Pocketbook Guide to God's Infinite Wisdom" forgot to mention or prophesy it??
Gandhi's words, at least, can be confirmed historically... whereas no one really knows what Jesus said or what his intentions were... save for a few scrolls written down by some money-hungry Hebrews trying to concoct a means to justify their "right" to the most valuable piece of land in the world (the Fertile Crescent).
"I like your Christ, but I do not like your Christians. Your Christians are so unlike your Christ."
- Mohandas K. Gandhi
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Jedi_Master201
Registered:
May '01
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Date Posted:
1/27/02 11:29am
Subject:
RE: Why is it so important for those of you who are religious to convert others?
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Gandhi's over-rated.
You have attacked us Christians well, Darth_SnowDog, but have not provided me anything to debate.
*shakes the dust off his feet and moves on*
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Admiral JM201 - Wraith 12, AotCDF
http://witnessincontrast.org/NewWIC/NewWebDesign/CreationVideos/creation_videos.htm
[The Lord of the Rings reigns over all other works of fiction]
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Palpazzar
Registered:
Aug '00
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Date Posted:
1/27/02 12:59pm
Subject:
RE: Why is it so important for those of you who are religious to convert others?
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Treecave, I don't mean anything by what I said. You simply confuse me in what you say. It seems like you argue that because one of two options is 'bad' that it is no choice at all. Philosophically, I cannot understand that or agree with it. History has plenty of examples of people with two options - one good and one bad. Those are choices even if they don't all work for good.
Snowdog, can you please prove to me there is no black or white in the universe?
"don't expect you to understand it, without having explored how other cultures have survived since the beginning of time"
How do you know what I have learned? How do you know I haven't? Take your own advice and open your mind to the possibilty that a rational person can in fact believe in God.
"But then conveniently, your elders have raped you of the ability to gain this knowledge by saying it's wrong for you to question... wrong for you to learn about other beliefs"
Again you show your ingonrance of Christianity. I do not know if it is by choice or not, but there is no problem in me questioning anything I want. That was a teaching of a corrupted church a thousand years ago. Your preconceptions of me are wrong. And I am perfectly capable of making a choice for myself.
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September 11, 2001 - Black Tuesday
I was never married to Oprah
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Jedi_Master201
Registered:
May '01
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Date Posted:
1/27/02 2:44pm
Subject:
RE: Why is it so important for those of you who are religious to convert others?
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As am I.
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Admiral JM201 - Wraith 12, AotCDF
http://witnessincontrast.org/NewWIC/NewWebDesign/CreationVideos/creation_videos.htm
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