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Topic:
Non-Religious Sanctuary Thread
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ktwsolo
Registered:
Feb '01
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Date Posted:
6/28/02 7:57am
Subject:
RE: Non-Religious Sanctuary Thread
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I just got back from something called RYLA, a youth leadership program through Rotary Club. It was really fun and stimulating. Hmm, not much has gone on here in the past several days...
Oh, what do people think about the recent Supreme Court ruling in the US that the 'under God' in the Pledge of Allegiance is illegal? For those here that might not know how it goes:
I pledge allegiance to the flag of the United States of America. And to the Republic, for which it stands, one nation, under God, indivisible, for liberty and justice for all.
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Everything in moderation.
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TreeCave
Registered:
Jul '01
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Date Posted:
6/28/02 8:48am
Subject:
RE: Non-Religious Sanctuary Thread
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I think its about time, personally. The argument that "well, people from other religions can just pretend 'god' is a word of respect for something they believe in" always struck me as logically flawed, and certainly not inclusive of atheists, who have as much right to patriotism as Christians. And once again, I must reiterate that Buddhism, a wondrous peaceful religion that has not gone about slaughtering or raping in the name of what they consider sacred, is essentially atheistic. I would hate to disenfranchise any Buddhists who love the US.
But then, even when I was Christian, I agreed with the Jehovah's Witnesses on this one point only - the flag fixation really is close to idolatry, and I was not the only Protestant who felt that way. Patriotism is fine, but we should pledge allegiace to a country and its people, not a piece of cloth. That's just MHO.
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ktwsolo
Registered:
Feb '01
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Date Posted:
6/28/02 9:53am
Subject:
RE: Non-Religious Sanctuary Thread
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I agree. I've never really seen a point in reciting the Pledge. I don't anyway (recite it that is).
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TreeCave
Registered:
Jul '01
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Date Posted:
6/28/02 10:56am
Subject:
RE: Non-Religious Sanctuary Thread
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I guess it's supposed to mindlessly program people to go through the motions of patriotism. I don't see that such an exercise inspires any real feeling or commitment in people, but I'm not sure that's the goal of those who want it recited. (I'm not sure what the goal IS, I just feel sure they've noticed by now how a bunch of glassy-eyed kids reciting something in not-awake-yet voices doesn't really mean much.)
I think it would be much better to actually discuss the US - pros and cons - and what it means to "love a country". I find it a bizarre notion personally. I can feel deep admiration for, say, the people who acted as heroes on 9/11 (and I don't mean just police and firefighters, but storekeepers who gave away items to survivors while they themselves were very likely to go out of business, and people who attacked hijackers or just called loved ones - that's actually a brave thing to do). But I have trouble feeling anything toward 280+ million people. It's like saying, "I really like the Milky Way a lot" when I've never been anywhere else, have nothing to compare it to.
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1stAD
Registered:
May '01
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Date Posted:
6/28/02 2:04pm
Subject:
RE: Non-Religious Sanctuary Thread
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Interestingly, Francis Bellamy (the Baptist minister who originally conceived the pledge) wanted the final version to read like this:
I pledge allegiance to my flag and to the Republic for which it stands, one nation, indivisible, with equality, liberty, and justice for all.
Of course, he knew full well that 'equality' would never be accepted nationwide.
And judging by statements from his family members after 'Under God' was added in, he would have reviled it's addition to the pledge. After his retirement he left the church altogether, disgusted by the bigotry and hatred that was directed towards blacks as well as his own socialistic ideals.
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People who live in glass houses throw stones at homosexuals
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Humble extra
Registered:
Jun '99
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Date Posted:
6/28/02 11:56pm
Subject:
RE: Non-Religious Sanctuary Thread
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just on a related note, assuming i pass the bar exam in august, i shall take a secular oath to the court........no way will i endorse any religious oath
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Mister_Bunny
Registered:
Apr '01
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Date Posted:
7/1/02 6:18pm
Subject:
RE: Non-Religious Sanctuary Thread
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Anyone know of any quotes from the Founding Fathers regarding a pledge of allegiance?
They seemed to know what they were doing... but no pledge came around until 1942. Hmmm.
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Lord Bane
Title: Manager Emeritus
Registered:
May '99
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Date Posted:
7/1/02 6:22pm
Subject:
RE: Non-Religious Sanctuary Thread
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I heard on the radio an atheist talking, saying that a true atheist would not care about having "Under God" in the Pledge because it wouldn't be something they were required to say or had to believe in. Imagine if "God" was actually "Santa Claus", he says, and you see how seriously the monotheists take it; then you undrestand the atheist standpoint.
He further went on to say that no true atheist would bring this issue to the fore, but that it was most likely an agnostic, the infamous moderates of the religious world, who cannot make up their mind what to believe in so they fear any input.
That's what he said when he called into Rush Limbaugh (who here's surprised that I listen to him?  ).
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“Time in its aging course teaches all things.” -Prometheus Bound http://thedenofmystery.blogspot.com Ghastly Tales! Thrilling Commentary! Tomfoolery!
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TreeCave
Registered:
Jul '01
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Date Posted:
7/1/02 7:01pm
Subject:
RE: Non-Religious Sanctuary Thread
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If it's so meaningless that you might as well stick Santa in there, why say it at all? And the fact is, it IS that meaningless when spouted by a bunch of sleepy school kids, half of whom think "indivisible" is "invisible" until they're 12. I think the pledge in schools - which came into vogue in the 50's during the cold war hysteria - was devised as a way to single out possible Commie kids. Ridiculous, of course, but so many things in that era devised for those purposes seem so in retrospect. Now that this is not really an issue, I think leaving the pledge out of schools is just fine.
But I disagree with your radio guy, Bane. He has the right to his opinion, but he is not the be-all end-all of "true atheists" and cannot speak for anyone else. "Under God" is something I refused to say back when I *was* Christian because I felt as a kid they had only stuck the words in there to make non-Christians feel like freaks. I'm not so sure of that anymore, but I still think it alienates people with very legitimate religious - and non-religious - views.
That said, I don't care as much what's in the pledge as I dislike the idea of forcing kids too young to legally consent to sex to swear their undying loyalty to a country they were born in and which is the only one they've experienced. For adults and immigrants, it has meaning.
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The_Emperors_Foot
Registered:
Jul '00
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Date Posted:
7/1/02 9:07pm
Subject:
RE: Non-Religious Sanctuary Thread
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"...I dislike the idea of forcing kids too young to legally consent to sex to swear their undying loyalty to a country they were born in and which is the only one they've experienced."
Interesting point, TreeCave. I agree.
For me, I'm glad to see this ruling, and I think it's about damn time. People argue that the pledge should contain "under God" because the U.S.'s Founding Fathers were religious, believed in God, were right for believing in God, blah, blah, blah... However, what people either neglect or just aren't aware of is that the pledge was written in 1892, but the words "under God" were not included until, at a height in the Cold War, 1954, President Eisenhower made it a mandatory phrase in the pledge in order to distinguish the United States from the "godless Communists," and for no other reason. The phrase has served its sole purpose for even being included in the first place, and the pledge can now stand to be restored to its original wording.
The phrase "under God" is unconstitutional, because students are instructed to recite it by teachers in public schools, and it can therefore be considered a government endorsement that:
1.) There is indeed a god;
2.) There is only one god, and if you instead say "godS," then you've got the pledge -wrong-, and;
3.) You're also wrong if you believe there is no god.
Having the government endorse any one of these three things is in violation of the Constitution, so certainly all three should be undeniably unconstitutional...
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cydonia
Registered:
Jun '01
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Date Posted:
7/1/02 9:29pm
Subject:
RE: Non-Religious Sanctuary Thread
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This is just great. I guess next you guys will be telling us you hate mom and apple pie. You know, if you don't like this country you have the option to leave. I don't mean to flame, but this country was founded by Christians, for Christians. If you are afraid of the Truth, that is absolutely your right. You have the right to be anti-capitalist pro socialist pro one- world government idealists. But please don't try to ruin it for all the other god fearing folk who are the backbone of this great nation. Kids need a moral compass, (yes, this includes the 10 Commandments, something i'm sure you're against for some reason) and the pledge reminds us that America is so great because of God. The founding fathers weren't lying when they said, "In God We Trust".
(file the preceding under "just kidding")
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when you're born a lover, you're born to suffer-
Like all soul sisters and soul brothers
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Saint_of_Killers
Registered:
Feb '01
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Date Posted:
7/1/02 9:44pm
Subject:
RE: Non-Religious Sanctuary Thread
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Ah, the patented Cydonia sarcasm 
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We enter into life naked and howling, covered with blood.
The fun doesn't have to end there.
Who to himself is law, no law does need, offends no law and is a king indeed
Abraham failed the test.
TAKE A BOW MISTER BUNNY!!!
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cydonia
Registered:
Jun '01
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Date Posted:
7/1/02 9:50pm
Subject:
RE: Non-Religious Sanctuary Thread
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when you're born a lover, you're born to suffer-
Like all soul sisters and soul brothers
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TreeCave
Registered:
Jul '01
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Date Posted:
7/2/02 12:16am
Subject:
RE: Non-Religious Sanctuary Thread
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Nicely said, Emperor's Foot - thanks for taking the time to provide actual research (I was too lazy).
And thank you, Cy, for that split personality fundie rant. Always fun to watch and read! 
The deists who read this may take consolation in knowing that I would also object to adding the phrase "humans evolved from apes" into any government document or pledge, because it can hardly be proven that we evolved from apes, and there are legitimate viewpoints that disagree with that take on our species' ancestry. I don't like dogma, whether it appears in religion, science, or in-crowd mentality, or anything else you can think of where people insist that their way is the only "right" way. To my way of thinking, sticking in the unprovable "evolved from apes" and the unprovable "under God" are equally pointless, and rather unfair to the minority who disagree with each statement.
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Ki-Adi Bundi
Registered:
Mar '00
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Date Posted:
7/2/02 5:23am
Subject:
RE: Non-Religious Sanctuary Thread
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...but that it was most likely an agnostic, the infamous moderates of the religious world, who cannot make up their mind what to believe in so they fear any input.
Most times I feel it is harder (or scarer) to doubt something than to believe (or deny) the same something right away, without (or few) pondering.
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"The oldest and strongest emotion of mankind is fear, and the oldest and strongest kind of fear is fear of the unknown"
Howard Phillips Lovecraft, Supernatural Horror in Literature
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