Author Topic: Do chistians see Atheist as bad people?
farraday 
Registered: Jan '00
Date Posted: 2/12/02 10:39pm Subject: RE: Do chistians see Atheist as bad people?
Humans are details cydonia.

 

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Off-Topic 
Registered: Feb '02
Date Posted: 2/13/02 5:02am Subject: RE: Do chistians see Atheist as bad people?
If God is all-powerful then he can forgive us our sins with or without Jesus. Also, if God is all-powerful and all knowing and all good, why does he need to be worshiped? Does he have some self-esteem issues or something, and need to be reassured that he’s been doing a good job?

I hope that every one of you will open your minds and reject the concept of a God who wants sycophants for worshipers.

 

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DarthPhelps 
Registered: Jan '02
46157_Robot Chicken: AT-AT Pilot
Date Posted: 2/13/02 6:10am Subject: RE: Do chistians see Atheist as bad people?
Jesus is also God.

God doesn't need our approval of his actions. My take on the 'made in His image' concept is that we were made in his spiritual image. That said, I feel that the emotional ranges we all share are also present in God. We love to be praised by our peers, and to be built up by them. In the same way, God desires our worship, rather than need it.

I think it would take more of an open mind to believe in God than to only accept those physical things in front of our faces.

 

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Darth Geist 
Registered: Oct '99
6270_Darth Vader
Date Posted: 2/13/02 7:37am Subject: RE: Do chistians see Atheist as bad people?
"God cannot have sin in his presence, and humans are sinful."

If God is everywhere, then He's had sin in His presence since the dawn of man--and if there's something he "cannot" do, then he isn't omnipotent.

 

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Darkside_Spirit 
Registered: Sep '01
Date Posted: 2/13/02 9:43am Subject: RE: Do chistians see Atheist as bad people? - Date Edited: 2/13/02 9:51am (3 edits total) Edited By: Darkside_Spirit
God cannot have sin in his presence, and humans are sinful. Therefore, we should all be damned (I don't like it, but that's what the Bible says - note my reference to Romans 3).


This is what makes me see Christianity as absurd. God made humans, and he also laid down a set of rules that humans, by their nature, would be unable to keep. What's the point? It almost looks like God set up sin just as an "excuse" to damn us, although that would conflict with his absolute omnipotence.

But the absurdity doesn't end there. Rather than simply recognise that we can't remotely adhere to the rules he knowingly set up for us, he must become a man and be murdered in order to forgive humanity. You'd think that an omnipotent being wouldn't need the "excuse" of killing himself in order to forgive us for breaking the impossible rules he laid down. Again, God doesn't seem to be omnipotent; he seems to need excuses in order to do things. First of all, he must set up inevitable sin in order to damn us for eternity. Then, he changes his mind and must therefore be crucified in order to let us off the hook.

But supposing there's nothing wrong with all this business of a God who must become a man and be killed in order to forgive us. Having done this, the most immense and far-reaching sacrifice in history, he then plays a silly little game with us. He decides that his sacrifice will only be applied to a select few (why he wants to waste it I cannot possibly presume). Therefore, he seeds the world with contradictory religions and says: "Ah, I will grant this sacrifice to people who randomly happen to stumble upon the right faith." He refuses to provide any far-reaching science, medicine or technology, which would be ample evidence for his being a god. He mutes the historical evidence relating to his sacrifice, and he fills the books (Bible) which will supposedly convert people with contradictions, absurdities, inaccuracies and incorrect ideas borne of 1st-century superstitition.

In short, he makes the greatest sacrifice in the history of the universe, and then uses it to play a silly little faith game with us - "My enormous act will be granted to those who, against evidence and reason, stumble on the right truth." You can see why deists have referred to Christianity as "derogatory to the almighty".

I will pick up an analogy I've used before, slightly modified for this context. If someone falls off a cliff, do you purely and simply reach out your hand to help them? Or do you hide your hand so it can only just be seen, and project lots of holographic false hands to confuse the falling person? If he grabs a holographic false hand, and falls, is his falling to the earth his fault, or yours? If he doesn't realise that he's fallen at all until it's too late, does he deserve death on the rocks below (and do you refuse to call the emergency services once he hits the ground)?

With history you have to mostly rely on other peoples accounts. It is impossible to set up tests and run experiments. All you have is data that mostly has already been run through human perception and coloured from various sources.


There are such things as eyewitnesses and primary evidence (written at the time). Jesus can be substantiated with neither.

Imaginary forces? What imaginary force caused the Universe to come into being? What imaginary force set up gravity, or magneticism? What imaginary force brought forth life from an improbable brew of chemicals?


1. That's the promoting principle for deism (the setting up of natural laws) but it says little in favour of theism, which goes much further.

2. Science does not understand everything yet; perhaps it never will (although there are quantum mechanics theories and all sorts that show the Big Bang could have happened spontaneously). However, nothing will be solved by making things up.

3. How did God come into being? You're just putting the problem back a step. You will say he is eternal and unchaging, the very fabric of existence - but why not say that about the laws of physics in the first place?

Science doesn't explain the world, it just defines it.


It attempts to both explain and define. Science searches for information through rational means.

Religion provides the details.


For "provides" substitute "invents". If humans had followed this mindset, we would still think the world was flat with four corners. [i]Human imagination has been shown fallacious in the vast majority of cases, yet science yields truth and results.

Here's a closing point: Recently I was debating with some Christians (in a very difficult situation since I had great reason not to offend them even though they resorted to the usual formula of threatening me with hellfire). One of them declared that, for people unaware of Christianity, "God looks into their eyes to see what they would have done". Of course, I couldn't give a noxious response like I would on the JC because these people would probably have been upset, causing great difficulties. happy However, I ask the question now: from where comes the idea that people will believe the Bible just by reading it? From where comes the idea that people will believe in Christianity just by hearing it?

Humans are details cydonia.


Which is why a truly great God, like that envisioned by the deists, would not be "personal" and would not be concerned about the smallest of our problems. One of the greatest issues with mainstream religion is that it fails to recognise how insignificant one human is - on the contrary, it says that one human can bend the entire universe to his will simply by praying.

Again, I find myself paying homage to the reason and eloquence of the great Geist. And in this case, to Off Topic as well. They summed up the basic point concisely and effectively.

 

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Grand_Moff_Monkey 
Registered: Nov '01
Date Posted: 2/13/02 10:23am Subject: RE: Do chistians see Atheist as bad people?
from where comes the idea that people will believe the Bible just by reading it?

That's how I became a Christian 7 years ago. I was writing a play set during Jesus' life. The object of the play was to ridicule Christianity for many of the reasons that you said in your post - because I saw it as absurd.

As part of my research I started reading the New Testament, in particular the gospel of John. The more I was reading, the less I cared about the play I was writing and the more what I was reading was coming alive to me. I read John, Acts and Ephesians over the next few weeks and I just knew it was true. Can't explain it any other way. John's gospel showed me the reality and the power of Jesus, Acts showed me what the church should be like, and Ephesians showed me what Christian living was all about.

Throughout this time I had no Christians around me to influence me - just me and my Bible.

I then committed my life to Jesus. All from just reading the Bible.



 

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Fear God and keep his commandments, for this is the whole of man.
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Paranorina 
Registered: Nov '01
6209_Max Rebo
Date Posted: 2/13/02 11:45am Subject: RE: Do chistians see Atheist as bad people?
"I then committed my life to Jesus. All from just reading the Bible."

Hmmm... Well Im not gonna watch Star Wars anymore in fear of beliving an a little green muppet and everything he sayes.

 

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farraday 
Registered: Jan '00
Date Posted: 2/13/02 1:32pm Subject: RE: Do chistians see Atheist as bad people?
Darkside,
Reading history is looking through the world in anothers eyes, what they see may not be what you would see if you were there, and yet because you couldn't be, all the evidence you have is tainted by their perception.

And you're right, it is impossible to live up to Gods standards. But it isn't impossible to try to. Isn't striving what being human is all about? We may never discover a way to cure cancer, or to go faster then light, or find a way to make pavement which doesn't get icy(sorry for that I slipped on the ice this morning and I still ache) but does that mean we shouldn't try? In all liklihood history will never remember my name. Or yours. Does that mean it doesn't matter what we do?

Why do you blame God for contradictory religions? Are humans worth so little then as to be unable to screw up without his guidance? I have great faith in humanities ability to screw up. Why does God waste his salvation? I do not know, but I am happy he chose to waste it on humans and give us the chance of something better.

I can not claim to know all the answers, but I would submit that God does not waste his salvation, it is granted to everyone, but there are those who refuse to see it, or see it and refuse to accept.

Even if God provided what you might consider proof, there are still those who would not believe.

If you want me to answer for why God does the things he does, you know I can not, But I disagree with your analogy. But let me state what I percieve you meaning of it to be. Humanity is the person falling, the holographic hands to be false religions and the person standing by doing nothing to be God, correct?

I would insead offer this. humanity is Blind walking around on a plataue. The voice of God is a soft whisper telling them where to go to stay away from the edge. And yet somone overloud and unwilling to listen falls off, is it Gods fault? Do not blame God if you refuse to listen to his word. Do not blame God for not shouting to be heard over your own voice.

As for how God came into being. You are assuming that God would be limited by restrictions of the Universe, and yet, if he created it, he coulld not be. A circular argument I know but that is the best I can do, no theologian am I. Before you harp on that please remember I am not asking you to explain current scientific theories on the origin.

Science yields truth and results? I disagree, from the scientist I've talked to all it yields are more questions.

As for your Bible question, I'll leave that to others to answer since they would be better suited, but if I may take a stab at your 'Why would God care about humans' point. Humans are not complete of themselves, you needn't take my word for, just look around. How many truely happy people do you see sitting in the corner of the room? And yet how many people go over and talk to that person, try to help? Try to make them happy? As I see it we are not complete, and God is trying to help us become complete with him.

<sigh> i know that probably makes little sense but I'm still blindly groping along the Platrua, uncomfortably aware that the edge is close then I'd like.

If you want we can take this up over email PM or AIM and so keep from railroading this discussion away from it's intended purpose.

And once again, I do not think Atheist are bad people, except those who make snide remarks about religion because they feel they are inately superior to anyone who would believe in such an obvious lie.

 

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Virtvs probata florescit
Omnes aequo animo parent ubi digni imperant
Exceptio probat regulam de rebus non exceptis
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Jedi_Master201 
Registered: May '01
7710_Obi-Wan Kenobi
Date Posted: 2/13/02 2:02pm Subject: RE: Do chistians see Atheist as bad people?
Paranorina, I don't think that's a problem. Yoda isn't a real being who knows everything. God is. If you really want to come to know God, He will reveal Himself to you. If you truly want to believe everything that little green muppet says, well then, you can. But I doubt it will really help you or anyone else around you.


Grand_Moff_Monkey, your testimony is very encouraging. You sound like Paul. Started off persecuting Christ, ended up following Him. Very cool.


D_S: "This is what makes me see Christianity as absurd. God made humans, and he also laid down a set of rules that humans, by their nature, would be unable to keep. What's the point? It almost looks like God set up sin just as an "excuse" to damn us, although that would conflict with his absolute omnipotence.

But the absurdity doesn't end there. Rather than simply recognise that we can't remotely adhere to the rules he knowingly set up for us, he must become a man and be murdered in order to forgive humanity. You'd think that an omnipotent being wouldn't need the "excuse" of killing himself in order to forgive us for breaking the impossible rules he laid down. Again, God doesn't seem to be omnipotent; he seems to need excuses in order to do things. First of all, he must set up inevitable sin in order to damn us for eternity. Then, he changes his mind and must therefore be crucified in order to let us off the hook."



You describe some of those occurences in a totally different way the Bible does, and God's motives totally different as well. But to answer the core confusion there. Perhaps God just wanted to show mercy to those who would accept Him, and justice to those who would reject Him. He set up the rules that we might know we aren't God. Those rules condemned our sin, even stimulated it, so that we might know we aren't God. We don't have the power and wisdom God does, and there would be great trouble if everyone walking around thought they were equal to God. 'Course, many people do walk around thinking that anyway, which is why they feel so guilty when someone shows them something from the Bible. It condemns them. And they know it. Anyway, the rules showed that we were sinful and needed God, and the sacrifice of Jesus provided the way our of condemnation, and back into a full relationship with God.


"I will pick up an analogy I've used before, slightly modified for this context. If someone falls off a cliff, do you purely and simply reach out your hand to help them? Or do you hide your hand so it can only just be seen, and project lots of holographic false hands to confuse the falling person? If he grabs a holographic false hand, and falls, is his falling to the earth his fault, or yours? If he doesn't realise that he's fallen at all until it's too late, does he deserve death on the rocks below (and do you refuse to call the emergency services once he hits the ground)?"


Sorry, God didn't create any "holographic 'hands'". These were thought up by humans via free will. Don't blame God, blame man for passing down the wrong material to future generations, out of rebellion.


"2. Science does not understand everything yet; perhaps it never will (although there are quantum mechanics theories and all sorts that show the Big Bang could have happened spontaneously). However, nothing will be solved by making things up."


I agree. But the Bible wasn't made up by us to solve things. It was shown to us by God. Your little theories were "made up" to explain away a King. The King of kings, to be exact.


"3. How did God come into being? You're just putting the problem back a step. You will say he is eternal and unchaging, the very fabric of existence - but why not say that about the laws of physics in the first place?"


Because everything in this physical universe has a beginning and an end(time). The laws of physics had to have a beginning. God didn't. He was the One who created time.


"It attempts to both explain and define. Science searches for information through rational means."


Please. Saying that the beauty and design of plants, animals, the human body, reproduction, the heavens, and every single law of nature just sort of 'happend'? By chance? Rational indeed. tongue


Your other points do not need to be argued. wink

 

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Ariana Lang 
Registered: Oct '99
7837_Queen Amidala
Date Posted: 2/13/02 3:22pm Subject: RE: Do chistians see Atheist as bad people?
"It almost seems as if God set up sin as an 'excuse' to damn us"


No...according to the Bible, we didn't start out sinning and God going "Ha ha ha -- let's see how many I can be merciful too. And the rest? Send them all to Hell! Bah!" We started out sinless, perfect, and we screwed ourselves. That makes God's mercy necessary. Because we are no longer perfect.

 

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Ender 
Registered: Aug '98
Date Posted: 2/13/02 4:31pm Subject: RE: Do chistians see Atheist as bad people?
The essence of Christianity is told us in the Garden of Eden history. The fruit that was forbidden was on the Tree of Knowledge. The subtext is, All the suffering you have is because you wanted to find out what was going on. You could be in the Garden of Eden if you had just kept your f***ing mouth shut and hadn't asked any questions.
-- Frank Zappa, interview, Playboy, May 2, 1993

 

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Jedi_Master201 
Registered: May '01
7710_Obi-Wan Kenobi
Date Posted: 2/13/02 5:24pm Subject: RE: Do chistians see Atheist as bad people?
The essence of Christianity is told us in the gospels. Man can't get to heaven on his own. Be it by knowledge, good works, or any other way.


Only by the life God provides can we enter heaven(have eternal life). In the Garden of Eden the tree of life symbolized the life that God gives. The life that Jesus gave us through His death.


Adam and Eve wanted to reach God through knowledge. If they had just eaten from the tree of life that God provided, they would have had life. Eating from the other tree was an act of rebellion. You rebel against life, you get death.

 

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Darth Geist 
Registered: Oct '99
6270_Darth Vader
Date Posted: 2/13/02 6:15pm Subject: RE: Do chistians see Atheist as bad people?
"Don't blame God, blame man for passing down the wrong material to future generations, out of rebellion."

Blame men today for what their ancestors did? How Biblical of you. wink

 

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"The key to enlightenment, then, is recognizing the basic goodness of all things.
Youth and old age, life and death, happiness and sorrow, all have their place
and we must learn to let them come and go in their time, without attachment or aversion."
- Diz
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MaidenLumpé 
Title: Manager Emeritus
Registered: Feb '00
13604_Hayden Christensen
Date Posted: 2/13/02 6:23pm Subject: RE: Do chistians see Atheist as bad people?
I will pick up an analogy I've used before, slightly modified for this context. If someone falls off a cliff, do you purely and simply reach out your hand to help them? Or do you hide your hand so it can only just be seen, and project lots of holographic false hands to confuse the falling person? If he grabs a holographic false hand, and falls, is his falling to the earth his fault, or yours? If he doesn't realise that he's fallen at all until it's too late, does he deserve death on the rocks below (and do you refuse to call the emergency services once he hits the ground)?

my beliefs are a bit different, seeing as i don't believe athiests go to hell. my version of the analogy would go something like:

if a person falls off a cliff, you could give them your hand, or you could give them some rope. in fact, give them many ropes and let them chose... some may have knots to make the climbing easier, some may have hooks to hook yourself on, and some may be just simple ropes. granted, it's easier to climb up with a rope made for climbing, but you can make it with a plain rope as well.

my belief is that deeds, rather than faith alone, result in salvation. the different ropes are symbolic of different religions, and the plain rope of no religion. some people prefer structure, but there are people (and many people, at that) who can live perfectly moral lives without an organized religion. religion helps, but it's not the only way.

now there are some people who see the rope, and know that not taking it is a bad idea, but don't take it anyways. and there are some people that will take the rope and, instead of using it to climb, will wrap it around their neck. not much you can do about these people either.

we've been givin the tools (i.e. a conscience) for our own salvation. we can use them well, or ignore that we have them. some people use them better with a religion, any religion. some people abuse the religion and end up hanging themselves with it. some people prefer not having the frills of knots or hooks and just prefer to live life as it comes, without a religion. and some people ignore any resemblence of a conscience and just fall.



i don't know if it made much sense now that i've written it out, but it made sense in my head happy this isn't meant to spark a discussion about faith vs. deeds (even though we've already got that going on) but instead is meant to translate the analogy into something that goes along with my personal beliefs.

 

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Darth Geist 
Registered: Oct '99
6270_Darth Vader
Date Posted: 2/13/02 6:26pm Subject: RE: Do chistians see Atheist as bad people?
Not bad, MaidenLumpé. happy

 

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"The key to enlightenment, then, is recognizing the basic goodness of all things.
Youth and old age, life and death, happiness and sorrow, all have their place
and we must learn to let them come and go in their time, without attachment or aversion."
- Diz
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