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Topic:
So you think the US is in a moral downfall....
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TreeCave
Registered:
Jul '01
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Date Posted:
3/4/02 10:33pm
Subject:
RE: So you think the US is in a moral downfall....
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This thread has earned a lyric posting - the most depressing song ever, by The Smiths. Kind of sums up the impossibility of dealing with this issue in a 100% satisfactory way.
"THIS NIGHT HAS OPENED MY EYES"
In a river the colour of lead
immerse a baby's head
wrap her up in the News Of The World
dump her on a doorstep, girl
this night has opened my eyes
and I will never sleep again
You kicked and cried like a bullied child
a grown man of twenty-five
he said he'd cure your ills
but he didn't and he never will
so, save your life
because you've only got one
The dream is gone
but the baby is real
oh you did a good thing
she could have been a poet
or, she could have been a fool
oh you did a bad thing
and I'm not happy
and I'm not sad
A shoeless child on a swing
reminds you of your own again
she took away your troubles
oh but then again she left pain
so please save your life
because you've only got one
The dream is gone
but the baby is real
oh you did a good thing
she could have been a poet
or, she could have been a fool
oh you did a bad thing
and I'm not happy
and I'm not sad
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TreeCave
Registered:
Jul '01
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Date Posted:
3/4/02 10:35pm
Subject:
RE: So you think the US is in a moral downfall....
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Fierce, the same thing could be said for anybody. But I think it's a weirdly male perspective to think you get your freedom back once the kid's out of the womb, as long as you don't go on to raise it. Sorry, I don't mean that to be offensive - fact is, men and women have very different things at stake when it comes to sex, pregnancy, rape and parenting, and this falls under 3 of those categories.
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Kessel Runner
Title: Manager Emeritus
Registered:
Apr '99
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Date Posted:
3/4/02 10:38pm
Subject:
RE: So you think the US is in a moral downfall....
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And TreeCave's point has not been missed on me. Let's move on from Abortion to some other aspect of morality. we've argued this as far as we can without having flame wars start  .
Let's go down a different road of ethics/morality (since abortion is heading down a more moral/religious road anyway). Is it right for the U.S. to enforce its moral judgment on other nations and their internal policies?
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18 inches of Love
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TreeCave
Registered:
Jul '01
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Date Posted:
3/4/02 10:52pm
Subject:
RE: So you think the US is in a moral downfall....
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Is it right for the U.S. to enforce its moral judgment on other nations and their internal policies?
I don't think so. A nicely complex example of this issue is the fine line between defending countries between aggression by, say, Communists and forcing another form of government on nations that want to be Communist.
I'm not convinced the US has always managed to stay on the right side of that balance.
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Darth Fierce
Registered:
Feb '00
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Date Posted:
3/4/02 11:01pm
Subject:
RE: So you think the US is in a moral downfall....
- Date Edited:
3/4/02 11:01pm (1 edits total)
Edited By:
Darth Fierce
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Treecave That is a bit offensive, because you're making a judgement while losing the context. I said that mother nature dictates a child and mother's freedoms are co-dependant for 9 months. If you say a woman's freedom is forever compromised as soon as she is pregnant, that's fine, but then you're oustide the context of the abortion issue. Of course the mother's life is forever impacted no matter what happens, and yes I realize that even though I'm a male. And there are some males who would be forever impacted by their partner's pregnancy too, believe it or not.
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My name is Gladiator
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Palpazzar
Registered:
Aug '00
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Date Posted:
3/4/02 11:01pm
Subject:
RE: So you think the US is in a moral downfall....
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To be totally honest on this, if it is in the TRUE best interests of the American people for defense or security, then yes.
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September 11, 2001 - Black Tuesday
I was never married to Oprah
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Kessel Runner
Title: Manager Emeritus
Registered:
Apr '99
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Date Posted:
3/4/02 11:01pm
Subject:
RE: So you think the US is in a moral downfall....
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oh I'm fully convinced the U.S. has never kept a good line on this matter. However, I think that sometimes they get it right and sometimes they blow it royally. Perfect examples of blowing it is when we support or insert violent dictators (i.e. Pinochet) or when we refuse to act fully in cases of genocide (i.e. Bosnia).
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Proud Father of My Precious Little Girl
Eliza Joy
Born 11:50 PM 3/8/08
6 pounds 12 ounces
18 inches of Love
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TreeCave
Registered:
Jul '01
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Date Posted:
3/4/02 11:18pm
Subject:
RE: So you think the US is in a moral downfall....
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KR, yeah, there was a whole lot of installing dictators going on during the 80's. Grenada, Afghanistan... boy, with the advantage of hindsight, don't we look dumb on that one?
Fierce, you said: "And there are some males who would be forever impacted by their partner's pregnancy too, believe it or not."
You're getting very defensive here and missing the point of what I'm saying. I do not have a bias when it comes to genders and parental qualities. Women are much better at being cold and unloving than men, and it scares the willies out of me that any woman can get pregnant anytime she likes and have herself a kid to abuse.
What I was trying to get at is this: there is always a big gap between what males stand to gain/lose in sexual contact and what females stand to gain/lose. I think most of us aren't even aware of it, particularly consciously, because we live it everyday and it becomes part of the scenery. But it's a simple fact of nature. And I believe our biological programming is a bit different, too - which makes sense, given how men have more child-siring years than women have child-bearing years, etc. The end result is that it colors our views, no matter how we'd like to believe we know what the other gender goes through. Then again, I don't think I understand other women very often - the more I know them, the more they freak me out. I guess I'm sort of androgynous, myself.
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Darth Fierce
Registered:
Feb '00
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Date Posted:
3/5/02 5:11pm
Subject:
RE: So you think the US is in a moral downfall....
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Treecave
Let me rephrase: We're talking about individual freedoms, and how they should be limited at the point they encroach other people's individual freedoms. For a woman who is pregnant, mother nature dictates that her freedom, and the freedom of the child (if that's your belief), intrinsically encroach one another for 9 months. After that, the child's freedom, by definition, can be made an independent issue from the mother's freedom, if she feels her freedom is best realized by giving up the child. Thus the original premise is back in order.
From this, you suggested that my "male perspective" precludes me from recognizing the effects upon the woman after choosing to give up her child. Call me defensive if you want, but I'm just trying to tell you it's irrelevant to the crux of the argument.
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My name is Gladiator
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Charles_Windflyer
Registered:
Feb '02
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Date Posted:
3/5/02 6:16pm
Subject:
RE: So you think the US is in a moral downfall....
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Just a note on the abortion issue before getting back to the proper topic...
It seems, Kessel that the imminent threat of death an unwanted pregnancy would bring about has caused you to be very responsible and wary of pregnancy. I admire your fortitude and you have my sympathies.
Unfortunately, from what I hear spoken by so many pro-abortionists, they don't have the same level of responsibility or caution. After all, if the alternative was a "back-alley" or "Tijuana" abortion, why wouldn't they develop the strength and self control you have? Are they really, as the Federal Government tries to convince us, too helpless and hopeless to take the same measures you have?
In my own personal, humble opinion, abortion is a matter of convienience. It is inconvenient to say "no," it is inconvenient to wear protection, it is inconvienient to wait until you are prepared to have a child, it is inconvenient to develop the fortitude that you have, Kessel.
Pro-Choice
Yes, I chose to have sex,
Yes, I chose to have unprotected sex,
Yes, I chose to have sex before I could emotionally or financially afford to have a child.
Yes, I chose to have sex before I was married,
But you know what? I wouldn't trade my son for anything in the world, and I thank GOD (literally) that we didn't choose to have an abortion.
Charles
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Cailina
Registered:
Mar '99
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Date Posted:
3/5/02 6:55pm
Subject:
RE: So you think the US is in a moral downfall....
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"After all, if the alternative was a 'back-alley' or 'Tijuana' abortion, why wouldn't they develop the strength and self control you have? Are they really, as the Federal Government tries to convince us, too helpless and hopeless to take the same measures you have?"
Uhm...some of us pro-choicers are taking/will take the same precautions as Kessel. However we either think that if soomething happens(contraceptives aren't 100% effective), abortion should be a last option or we just don't think it can constitutionally be outlawed(entirely at any rate).
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Kessel Runner
Title: Manager Emeritus
Registered:
Apr '99
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Date Posted:
3/5/02 8:02pm
Subject:
RE: So you think the US is in a moral downfall....
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OK, I already said let's move on. This is not going to be "just another abortion thread". No one is going to change anyone's mind here, we'll devolve into a flame war and I will be forced to ban people. Let's move on and talk about the new topic at hand.
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Proud Father of My Precious Little Girl
Eliza Joy
Born 11:50 PM 3/8/08
6 pounds 12 ounces
18 inches of Love
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Palpazzar
Registered:
Aug '00
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Date Posted:
3/5/02 8:12pm
Subject:
RE: So you think the US is in a moral downfall....
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How about the issue of the abuse of power? We have many examples such as *certain* admins who yeild their power to ban like a magic wand
Seriously though, is power abused and if you think so, in what ways?
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September 11, 2001 - Black Tuesday
I was never married to Oprah
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Kessel Runner
Title: Manager Emeritus
Registered:
Apr '99
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Date Posted:
3/5/02 8:22pm
Subject:
RE: So you think the US is in a moral downfall....
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Well I have one specific example in mind. I don't know if any of you are familiar with the West Memphis Three, but they are three teenage boys who were convicted of murdering three 8 year old boys back in 1993. The judge in that case abused his power. I was at a gathering of Defense Fund supporters on Saturday night and we were watching the tapes of the trial (their story was two documentaries on HBO, Paradise Lost and Paradise Lost 2: Revelations). The judge was making the objections for the prosecution, and reading his mail/paying bills when the defense made arguments.
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Proud Father of My Precious Little Girl
Eliza Joy
Born 11:50 PM 3/8/08
6 pounds 12 ounces
18 inches of Love
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Palpazzar
Registered:
Aug '00
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Date Posted:
3/5/02 8:26pm
Subject:
RE: So you think the US is in a moral downfall....
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I know of the case, but not the judge's actions. Was an appeal made on that basis?
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September 11, 2001 - Black Tuesday
I was never married to Oprah
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