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Author Topic: 'There are many paths to god.'
Darkside_Spirit 
Registered: Sep '01
Date Posted: 4/7/02 10:55am Subject: RE: 'There are many paths to god.'
If Jesus was just another path to god, then I don't want to believe in that god, because that's a sick god if he would let Jesus go through what He did during the crucifixion process even though there were "other ways."


This is a particularly interesting part of the first post. Christians usually deny that their belief is based on wishful thinking.

Furthermore, I would propose that Jesus' sacrifice is better viewed as a reflection of God's love for us, rather than an act of cruelty against His Son (ie Himself for that matter).


Better viewed? The filter of faith is perhaps what's being referred to here grin I still maintain that, if you reason the Christian salvation scheme out, God is responsible for our being destined for hell. Why should you thank him for saving you from it, when it's him that would have sent you there in the first place?

As Thomas Paine said, when an innocent can be substituted for the guilty, "...it is no longer justice. It is indiscriminate revenge". Judges issuing fines and then paying them does not make sense, nor does it constitute justice.

So to add to this i don't think that those who kill saying that they will inherit heaven through it, are on their way to heaven.


It's surprising how many adherents to justification by faith will seemingly compromise on their belief when pressed about it. When I debated with a fundamentalist a few months back, he declared that actions are irrelevant and that heaven/hell is believer/unbeliever. So, I rolled out the classic point of: "Did Hitler go to heaven and his Jewish victims to hell?" After some murmuring I was told that, since Hitler committed suicide, his "faith was destroyed instantly". It doesn't take much to expose an indefensible doctrine.

We shouldn't forget that Jesus said that no one took his life from him, but he laid it down willingly - only to take it up again. Wow!!


If you take the sacrifice back, it's no longer a sacrifice.

So that only those who wanted to believe in Him would go to heaven, whereas those who didn't could still go to heaven? I don't think so.


If there is a god, I doubt he is possessed by petty human insecurities enough to care about whether or not people believe in him. If he wanted to save humanity, he would save them, and wouldn't demand unconditional belief in the absence of evidence. And this comes from a person (JM201) who has condemned other faiths for following "man's idea of God".

As C.S. Lewis points out, either Christ was exactly who he said he was, the Son of God, or he was a liar, a charlatan and a lunatic. There is no middle ground. If a person wishes to claim that there are many paths to God, then they must reject Christ and his teachings.


We don't know what Christ actually was/said. Therefore, you cannot make this judgement.

 
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Jediflyer 
Registered: Dec '01
6475_Corran Horn
Date Posted: 4/7/02 12:07pm Subject: RE: 'There are many paths to god.'
"If he wanted to save humanity, he would save them, and wouldn't demand unconditional belief in the absence of evidence."

If I told you the sliding glass door was closed, and you were crippled and unable to touch it, would you doubt my words.

It's pretty much the same way with faith. Although we can't teel for sure whether God/Jesus exists and cares for us, we can begin to figure it out. There are other ways to see if a glass door is closed or not. Is there a breeze? Can you here the birds chirping outside?

In my view, faith is like this. Although you don't know for sure, you take evidence and draw reasonable conclusions from what you know.

 

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cydonia 
Registered: Jun '01
6295_Cloud Car
Date Posted: 4/7/02 12:15pm Subject: RE: 'There are many paths to god.' - Date Edited: 4/7/02 12:30pm (4 edits total) Edited By: cydonia
That CS Lewis quote is inaccurate, in my opinion. It's been used quite a bit here to force non believers into either insulting jesus or converting.

Just because CS Lewis said that doesn't make it true. There are multitudes of alternatives. I'm already aware of a few.

So i've decided to create my own quote. Now we can all use it instead of CS Lewis. Cool?

Either Christ was exactly who he said he was, the Son of God, or he was a liar, a charlatan and a lunatic. Or perhaps he was a mythic figure, created according to mythic standards, and has been judged to be a historical person after the fact. Or perhaps he was a social revolutionary who was canonized after the fact. There is no middle ground if you want to be a fundamentalist christian in the 21st Century. If a person wishes to claim that there are many paths to God, then they must reject Christ and his teachings as handed down to them by their church and the Ancient Roman church fathers, a subject that in itself is full of deceit, treachery, forgery, and immoral acts too numerous to count.

 

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Wylding 
Registered: Aug '00
6600_Obi-Wan Kenobi
Date Posted: 4/15/02 8:19pm Subject: RE: 'There are many paths to god.'
Ok TFU, I have a question for you. In an earlier conversation we agreed that you thought there was only one way to get to God...through Christ and that was the only way.

There are several problems with this line of thinking. For example, it causes some difficulties with the concept that God the Father=Christ=The Holy Spirit. So, if one has met God the Father, then by default they've met Christ etc. etc.

Also, it causes some problems with John 6:45.
John 6:45

'It is written in the prophets, "And they shall all be taught by God." Therefore everyone who has heard and learned from the Father comes to Me.'


 

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Darth Geist 
Registered: Oct '99
6270_Darth Vader
Date Posted: 4/15/02 8:22pm Subject: RE: 'There are many paths to god.'
Interesting thought, Wylding.

 

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Youth and old age, life and death, happiness and sorrow, all have their place
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cydonia 
Registered: Jun '01
6295_Cloud Car
Date Posted: 4/15/02 8:45pm Subject: RE: 'There are many paths to god.'
Does this mean i'm REALLY not going to hell, or just maybe not going to hell?

 

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Darth_SnowDog 
Registered: Sep '01
Date Posted: 4/16/02 6:47am Subject: RE: 'There are many paths to god.'
Has anyone bothered to take a look at The Bhagavad Gita lately? This core Hindu scripture has said, 1000 years before Christ's alleged birth, many of the things that are said about God in the Bible... and often almost identical passages and/or meanings.

Take a look sometime, particularly in, I believe, Chapter 9... where God describes himself through Krishna, one of his earthly incarnations (imagine that)...

I would like to know how such a stunningly similar statement could be made about God 1000 years before Christ's birth if not at least one of the following were true:

1. Hinduism had it right first, and Christianity merely repeated what was already said.

2. Hinduism and Christianity are both right and talking about the same God from different cultural perspectives.

3. Christ and/or his followers were deceivers who stole the idea of God from Hinduism (and other religions).

4. There is no Christ, someone merely made up what was already said about Mithras, Appolonius of Tyana, Brahma/Vishnu/Krishna, among others.

Bear in mind I'm not invalidating the effect faith has on people and their purpose in life... I'm merely debating the preponderance that Christianity is somehow unique in the pantheon of religions. It is clearly not, and it is often repeating what has been said before in religion, folklore, etc.

This doesn't make Christ or his follower's benevolent aims and desires to do right any less valuable to the world... but it does shed some light on all the deceitful things that have been done in the name of Christianity... all on the basis of a false presumption.

 

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Wylding 
Registered: Aug '00
6600_Obi-Wan Kenobi
Date Posted: 4/16/02 10:21am Subject: RE: 'There are many paths to god.'
I'm reading it right now and the similarities are...striking.

There was a reason Christ came to the people of Israel. In the OT they are referred to as God's chosen. It is my opinion that they are His chosen because at that time they needed this information the most. That is to say that in the far east the message had already come in the form of Krishna. Christ needed to come and show His people a better way.

1. Hinduism had it right first, and Christianity merely repeated what was already said.

2. Hinduism and Christianity are both right and talking about the same God from different cultural perspectives.

I have often had these two very same thoughts. It's good to know that I'm not the only one out there thinking them. As for the other two, it is my belief that Christ and His followers were the real deal and the he definetly existed. There is historical evidence to suggest that he did, but much like Krishna, the world debates if he ever existed. In the end, both the fact that the world rejects and doubts both of them serve to test the followers of each faith today...overcoming this strengthens the followers will and forces a spiritual awakening. Which is a goal of both Christianity and Hinduism.

I'm still waiting to hear from you TFU happy

No worries if you don't want to answer me, it just seems that if the Three really are One (as I believe they are), then Christ saying no one comes to the Father but through Him isn't an exclusive statement at all. In fact I was looking at that verse again today...

John 14:6
Jesus said to him, "I am the way, the truth, and the life. No one comes to the Father except through Me."

Note TFU, that Christ doesn't say there is only one way to come to know the person of Christ.



Anyway, it is my personal belief that Christ (through the Holy Spirit) comes to anyone who is truly seeking The Spiritual and rejecting the crass demands of his physical/lower nature.

John 6:45

'It is written in the prophets, "And they shall all be taught by God." Therefore everyone who has heard and learned from the Father comes to Me.'

There is no other way to explain the otherwise contradictory statements made by Christ in the much quoted John 14:6 and the little quoted (but no less significant) John 6:45.

In the end you will believe what you wish (or what you are told to believe), but don't think for one second that yours is the only true way. There are those who believe that the holy spirit dwells within us and that by deep meditation we can come to know Christ/God/The Holy Spirit just as powerfully as those who walked with him long ago. And these people have just as much evidence to support their belief systems as you do for your belief system...

1 Corinthians 6:19
'Or do you not know that your body is the temple of the Holy Spirit who is in you, whom you have from God, and you are not your own?'

Psalm 46:10
'Be still, and know that I am God; I will be exalted among the nations, I will be exalted in the earth!'

Genesis 24:63
'And Isaac went out to meditate in the field in the evening; and he lifted his eyes and looked, and there, the camels were coming.'

Psalm 4:4
'Be angry, and do not sin. Meditate within your heart on your bed, and be still.Selah'

Psalm 119:15
'I will meditate on Your precepts, And contemplate Your ways.'

David did alot of meditating and was called a man after God's own heart. So, as you can see there is precedent for this type of Christian introspection, but it has been replaced with fear and guilt. Pastors would rather have you sit in the pew, feel guilty, and then put money in the offering plate. No true spiritual growth can come until you overcome your lower base nature. Paul talks a lot about this...It's funny to me, because the Yogis of India have been telling us the same thing for ages.

Good luck in your spiritual walk. Be Master.



 

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Darth_SnowDog 
Registered: Sep '01
Date Posted: 4/16/02 10:38am Subject: RE: 'There are many paths to god.' - Date Edited: 4/16/02 10:42am (1 edits total) Edited By: Darth_SnowDog
There is historical evidence to suggest that he did, but much like Krishna, the world debates if he ever existed. In the end, both the fact that the world rejects and doubts both of them serve to test the followers of each faith today...overcoming this strengthens the followers will and forces a spiritual awakening. Which is a goal of both Christianity and Hinduism.

Wylding: Agreed.

Check this out...

From Prabhupada's translation of the Bhagavad Gita:

"O Arjuna, those who worship devotedly different demigods, although faithfully; they also worship Me only; but in an unauthorized manner." - 9:23

"I am equally disposed to all living entities; there is neither friend nor foe to Me; but those who with loving sentiments render devotional service unto Me, such persons are in Me and I am in them." - 9:29

"O Arjuna, I am the Ultimate Consciousness situated within the heart of all living entities and I am the beginning, the middle and the end as well of all living entities." - 10:20

 

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Wylding 
Registered: Aug '00
6600_Obi-Wan Kenobi
Date Posted: 4/16/02 10:46am Subject: RE: 'There are many paths to god.' - Date Edited: 4/16/02 10:50am (1 edits total) Edited By: Wylding
Darth_SnowDog, it took me a long time to come to these conclusions. It's my hope that if other people see these posts, they might realize that there is more to spirituality than "I-am-rightism."

"O Arjuna, those who worship devotedly different demigods, although faithfully; they also worship Me only; but in an unauthorized manner." - 9:23

Paul says something very similar...the verse escapes me at the moment, but as I recall he was looking at the statues of different gods the Romans had erected and he comes to the one for the unknown god. The interesting thing is that Paul doesn't condemn them all...


"I am equally disposed to all living entities; there is neither friend nor foe to Me; but those who with loving sentiments render devotional service unto Me, such persons are in Me and I am in them." - 9:29

Wow, you see, that statement right there some 1000 years before Christ seems very Christ like or Christ was very Krishna like.


"O Arjuna, I am the Ultimate Consciousness situated within the heart of all living entities and I am the beginning, the middle and the end as well of all living entities." - 10:20

Ditto for this statement!

I should have been a comparative religions major! grin

 

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Darth_SnowDog 
Registered: Sep '01
Date Posted: 4/16/02 11:30am Subject: RE: 'There are many paths to god.' - Date Edited: 4/16/02 11:45am (3 edits total) Edited By: Darth_SnowDog
Heheeh... the first passage I quoted demonstrates Hinduism is not polytheistic as is commonly thought, but henotheistic... acknowledging there is only one supreme creator, but at the same time not claiming exclusivity with that creator, nor implying that other religions are false in their intentions. Since there is but one god, and that one god is omnipotent/omniscient and omnipresent, it is fairly logical to assume that god already knows what you're thinking and what, when you worship however you worship, your intentions really are. Given that, an omniscient god would not take offense (or any other anthropomorphic emotion, for that matter).

The second and third passages are not only like Christ... it practically is Christ. In the Gospel of Thomas, one sees a Christ who expresses his intention of a much more direct relationship with God, without intermediaries between God and the believer... including himself. This is Christ... this is humility. Unfortunately, for some odd reason... Gospel of Thomas was not accepted as Canon by the Vatican.

I would imagine it has something to do with just how much the revelations of Christ's own words in Thomas challenge the status quo and power structure of the Church... which is wholly dependent on the legitimacy of their interpretation of the Canonical gospels. If Christ himself didn't endorse the absolute power and exclusivity with God that the church has claimed for nearly 2000 years... well, you do the math.

grin

 

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Neon_Ninja 
Registered: Feb '02
Date Posted: 4/17/02 1:08am Subject: RE: 'There are many paths to god.' - Date Edited: 4/17/02 1:16am (1 edits total) Edited By: Neon_Ninja
Wylding, Darth Snowdog

You are both so so wrong.

 

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Neon_Ninja 
Registered: Feb '02
Date Posted: 4/17/02 1:14am Subject: RE: 'There are many paths to god.' - Date Edited: 4/17/02 1:32am (1 edits total) Edited By: Neon_Ninja
Just kidding. It's so rare that people here agree. I didn't want to disrupt the the trendy flow of bickering we've all worked so hard to establish.

Really though. Very insightful posts. For once, we are left with nothing to argue.

 

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Grand_Moff_Monkey 
Registered: Nov '01
Date Posted: 4/17/02 6:29am Subject: RE: 'There are many paths to god.'
Wylding

'It is written in the prophets, "And they shall all be taught by God." Therefore everyone who has heard and learned from the Father comes to Me.'

I agree that this verse isn't quoted as much as it ought to be. I really like it. If you look at the whole of John 6, it should make more sense. After feeding over 5,000 people with five loaves and two fish, they still didn't get it. The next day, they asked Jesus for a sign to show them why they should believe him. Imagine that! If it was me I'd have said "You dumb-asses! I fed you all yesterday out of nothing! What do you want from me??"

The crowd then refered to the manna (bread) that God rained down from heaven for the Israelites. This bread was what they needed to give them sustenance in the desert. Jesus says that he is the Bread of Life. He quotes Isaiah's word, and says that everyone who listens to the Father and learns from him comes to Jesus. They's listened to the Father, but not learnt from him. If they'd learnt anything they wouldn't dare ask Jesus for a sign after the miracle he performed for them the previous day.

Many people listen to God, but sadly not many learn from him. It's like when we're at school - we sometimes listen to the teacher, but we don't learn from him or put it into practise.


'Or do you not know that your body is the temple of the Holy Spirit who is in you, whom you have from God, and you are not your own?'

It's very important not to ignore the context of this verse. Paul was writing to the church at Corinth. To the believers. It is the believers in Christ who have the Holy Spirit dwelling in them.


'Be angry, and do not sin. Meditate within your heart on your bed, and be still.

With regards to verses on meditation, yes - meditation is important. But what is meditation, biblically speaking? Meditation simply means "to mutter". In Joshua Chapter 1, Joshua is told to meditate on God's word. Think about it, study it, mutter it again and again under your breath. The more you think about it, the more it becomes real to you. It's not about emptying your mind or focussing on one spot. On the contrary, it's about focussing on God's word and his promises.

You quoted Psalm 119:15, and that's exactly what it says: 'I will meditate on Your precepts, And contemplate Your ways.'

 

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Now that all has been heard, here is the conclusion of the matter:
Fear God and keep his commandments, for this is the whole of man.
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Grand_Moff_Monkey 
Registered: Nov '01
Date Posted: 4/17/02 6:43am Subject: RE: 'There are many paths to god.'
Wylding

Paul says something very similar...the verse escapes me at the moment, but as I recall he was looking at the statues of different gods the Romans had erected and he comes to the one for the unknown god.

You're thinking of Acts 17. Paul had noticed a statue with an inscription "To an unknown God". He refers to it and tells them about God, since they have admitted themselves that he is unknown to them. I think he was using it as a visual aid, rather than making any deep theological points about it.

I was speaking with my aunt a while back. She said something to the effect of "I worship God in my own way. I haven't got a clue what he's like." I remembered Paul, andsaid "Well, since you don't know about God, let me tell you about him."


The interesting thing is that Paul doesn't condemn them all...

I didn't condemn my aunt either. Neither Jesus nor the apostles condemned Gentile non-believers. They always spoke respectfully to them. They only spoke condemingly to the religious people of the day who ought to know better, like the Pharisees for example. Paul wanted to speak at respectfully to them as possible.

Paul makes it clear that the worship of idols is not the same as worshipping God, but rather it's the same as worshipping demons:
Do I mean then that a sacrifice offered to an idol is anything, or that an idol is anything? No, but the sacrifices of pagans are offered to demons, not to God, and I do not want you to be participants with demons. You cannot drink the cup of the Lord and the cup of demons too; you cannot have a part in both the Lord's table and the table of demons.(1 Corinthians 10:19-21)


 

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Now that all has been heard, here is the conclusion of the matter:
Fear God and keep his commandments, for this is the whole of man.
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