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Topic:
Catholicism
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GrandAdmiralThrawn66
Registered:
Jun '02
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Date Posted:
8/19/05 2:29pm
Subject:
RE: Catholicism
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I know this is a little off topic, but has anyone ever been to a Latin Mass (pre-1962). I started going about a year ago and I really believe that Latin masses should be reenstated by the Pope. At least they should offer one Latin mass besides the "modern" mass. Latin Mass actually feels like you are witnessing a miracle, but hey maybe its just my opinion.
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severian28
Registered:
Apr '04
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Date Posted:
8/19/05 2:31pm
Subject:
RE: Catholicism
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Very early on in my Cathlolic schooling they were still doing the services in Latin in my parish, then around 1983 they stopped.
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Binary_Sunset
Registered:
Oct '00
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Date Posted:
8/19/05 2:36pm
Subject:
RE: Catholicism
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GrandAdmiralThrawn66 posted:
I know this is a little off topic, but has anyone ever been to a Latin Mass (pre-1962). I started going about a year ago and I really believe that Latin masses should be reenstated by the Pope. At least they should offer one Latin mass besides the "modern" mass. Latin Mass actually feels like you are witnessing a miracle, but hey maybe its just my opinion.
 I wholeheartedly agree.
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KnightWriter
Title:
Administrator Emeritus
Registered:
Nov '01
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Date Posted:
8/19/05 2:37pm
Subject:
RE: Catholicism
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contraception: This would be suicide for the Church. The Church wants more members, not fewer. What kind of organization wants to reduce its membership?
Andrew Greeley has written a great deal as to why Humanae Vitae was a horrible move for the Church, and killed the gains of Vatican II.
homosexuality: Same thing. This would result in fewer members. The Church wants members to have lots of babies. Homosexual sex results in zero babies.
The latter point strikes me as being irrelevant.
To use membership gains or losses as a way to help figure out whether something is right or wrong strikes me as a very bad way to go.
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"May you live all the days of your life"
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GrandAdmiralThrawn66
Registered:
Jun '02
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Date Posted:
8/19/05 2:42pm
Subject:
RE: Catholicism
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I'm glad people agree, if it was up to me all masses would be in Latin. Im glad I found a parish that is completely Latin, with both high and low masses.
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severian28
Registered:
Apr '04
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Date Posted:
8/19/05 2:44pm
Subject:
RE: Catholicism
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To use membership gains or losses as a way to help figure out whether something is right or wrong strikes me as a very bad way to go.
I agree. Perhaps the worst black eye of the Catholic Church was its silence towards the German citiznery, with a very large Catholic representation, during Hitlers reign. Obviously they were thinking membership then, too, and one can argue that that was the real seed of Catholicisms decline in the 20th century, especially in Europe.
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" Bring the sled " - Al Swearengen
" Dying all the time. Lose your dreams and you will lose your mind. Aint life unkind? " - The Rolling Stones
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GrandAdmiralThrawn66
Registered:
Jun '02
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Date Posted:
8/19/05 2:51pm
Subject:
RE: Catholicism
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while the higher officals of the church remained silent, hundreds maybe thousands of lifes were saved by Catholic officals in france germany poland and other countries.
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Binary_Sunset
Registered:
Oct '00
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Date Posted:
8/19/05 3:30pm
Subject:
RE: Catholicism
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KnightWriter posted:
Andrew Greeley has written a great deal as to why Humanae Vitae was a horrible move for the Church, and killed the gains of Vatican II...
To use membership gains or losses as a way to help figure out whether something is right or wrong strikes me as a very bad way to go.
Humanae Vitae was simply a reaffirmation of a dogma of the Church. Nothing new there.
I can't think of any gains of Vatican II.
I was using membership gains only as a way to illustrate even to anti-Catholics that it is ridiculous to fault the Church for not adopting practices that would hurt the Church as an organization. We already know what a sex-free-for-all (contraception, abortion, divorce, etc.) Catholic Church would look like: The Anglican Church, complete with its empty pews.
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KnightWriter
Title:
Administrator Emeritus
Registered:
Nov '01
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Date Posted:
8/19/05 3:34pm
Subject:
RE: Catholicism
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Humanae Vitae was simply a reaffirmation of a dogma of the Church. Nothing new there.
No, it wasn't. Instead, it was a bad move by the Church, pushed on Paul by church hardliners. At one point in 1967, Paul said in an interview that he didn't know which way to go with it. Unfortunately, the conservatives ended up getting to him.
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Binary_Sunset
Registered:
Oct '00
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Date Posted:
8/19/05 4:15pm
Subject:
RE: Catholicism
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When in the Church's history was contraception ever acceptable? The first church to say it was OK was the Anglican Church in 1930, and that was recognized as a big innovation.
If I had my way, the Pope would do the following:
1. He would call all the Catholics bishops of the world to Rome, on pain of excommunication (unless sickness or severe persecution prevented the trip).
2. Once the bishops arrived, Benedict XVI, in union with all the bishops, would consecrate Russia to the Immaculate Heart of Mary.
3. Benedict, as the successor of Peter, would infallibly define Mary as Mediatrix, Co-Redemptrix, and Advocate of the people of God.
4. Benedict would return the Church's liturgy and all forms of practice to the way they stood upon the death of Pope Pius XII in 1958.
5. Benedict, restoring a practice that had lapsed, would readmit Catholic infants to chrismation and the Eucharist.
Number 1 could be done in a week's time. Numbers 2 through 5 could be done in a day.
If all this were done, I'd be 99% of the way to converting to Catholicism.
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Jedi_Keiran_Halcyon
Registered:
Dec '00
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Date Posted:
8/19/05 6:40pm
Subject:
RE: Catholicism
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B_S, I also hope the things you've asked for will transpire.
Reversing Vatican II will alienate even more members of the Catholic Church, which will result in fewer people following its teachings. Catholicism will diminish and perhaps die out. I see this as a good thing for the world in general.
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severian28
Registered:
Apr '04
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Date Posted:
8/19/05 6:45pm
Subject:
RE: Catholicism
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The first thing the new pope should do is apologize for being involved in the cover up of the raping of children.
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" Bring the sled " - Al Swearengen
" Dying all the time. Lose your dreams and you will lose your mind. Aint life unkind? " - The Rolling Stones
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Jedi_Liz
Title: Former CR
Lincoln NE, USA
Registered:
Apr '00
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Date Posted:
8/19/05 6:54pm
Subject:
RE: Catholicism
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#1-3 - no problems with that
#4 - I speak English. I prefer Mass be in English, which is easier for me to understand and participate in. I don't mind certain parts of the Liturgy in Latin on occasion (the Holy Holy Holy and Lamb of God for example) but I don't want the OUR FATHER in Latin. One year out of nowhere the priest presiding over Mass (it was before Easter IIRC) decided to say the Our Father in Latin. I was totally lost and could barely follow along, even with the latin words in the hymnal.
It also wouldn't be fair to those who primarily only speak spanish or french (for example) to have only Latin Mass. There's a small parish in my diocese that has a Spanish Mass. Now, that I wouldn't mind going to once because I took Spanish in high school. I barely remember the Our Father, but I'd rather it be Spanish than Latin.
Communion for infants.......well, it'd have to be the Precious Blood.
There's a reason for infant baptism - to remove the stain of Original Sin.
In my opinion, I do think that Confirmation should be later on - for me it was basically a renewal of the baptism promises made by my parents and my godparents. I got to chose an extra name to add to my First name and Middle Name. We also (at least in my parish) were required to do special service hours and learn answers to questions the Bishop would have possibly asked the class during his Homily @ the Confirmation Mass.
Maybe that could vary by Diocese. My confirmation was in 1989 (4th grade). Some people now have it in the 8th grade. I think it depends on the Bishop. The Bishop we have currently wasn't the one that Confirmed me.
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Father_Time
Registered:
Nov '03
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Date Posted:
8/19/05 7:00pm
Subject:
RE: Catholicism
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It probably depnds on the Bishop (the age you do confirmation). Because where I live, it is uncommon to do it before you're 15.
And I doubt Benedict will reverse Vatican II, since he was PART of it and supports it. And I think it would be a big mistake.
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Binary_Sunset
Registered:
Oct '00
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Date Posted:
8/19/05 7:38pm
Subject:
RE: Catholicism
- Date Edited:
8/19/05 7:39pm (1 edits total)
Edited By:
Binary_Sunset
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Jedi_Keiran_Halcyon posted:
B_S, I also hope the things you've asked for will transpire.
Reversing Vatican II will alienate even more members of the Catholic Church, which will result in fewer people following its teachings. Catholicism will diminish and perhaps die out. I see this as a good thing for the world in general.
All Vatican II accomplished is the gutting of the Church in first world countries. Ponder the statistics in this article: http://www.seattlecatholic.com/article_20031208.html
If the Pope and the Church were to essentially pretend that Vatican II never happened, the Church would grow stronger.
severian28 posted:
The first thing the new pope should do is apologize for being involved in the cover up of the raping of children.
 Note that 77% of the "children" were adolescent males. That doesn't sound like rape. It sounds like old-fashioned homosexual sex (man and a male adolescent) to me. Note further that these abominable priests were Vatican II-types. I have not heard of a single traditionalist priest committing these sins. Further, how was Benedict XVI involved in a cover-up?
Father_Time posted:
I doubt Benedict will reverse Vatican II, since he was PART of it and supports it.
I agree. I am not pleased with any of the Popes starting with John XXIII. While I think that Benedict XVI will be the least bad of this bunch, I don't expect much from him.
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