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Topic:
Catholicism
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Paladin307
Registered:
Nov '04
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Date Posted:
9/20/05 2:03pm
Subject:
RE: Catholicism
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Hmm I thought about liberation theology but in true conservative fashion I opted to go with The Catholic Church and moral relativism with a close look on how this has affected american catholics in particular.
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Neo-Paladin
Registered:
Dec '04
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Date Posted:
9/20/05 5:12pm
Subject:
RE: Catholicism
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Moral Relativism. Heh.
You can bop into the Atheism thread to get my take on that topic.... 
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Jansons_Funny_Twin
Registered:
Jul '02
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Date Posted:
9/20/05 9:50pm
Subject:
RE: Catholicism
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A question concerning what language the Mass is in:
(For starters, I'm not Catholic, hell, I'm not even religious anymore, but I have attended Mass with a friend in both English and Latin on a couple occasions, and found the Latin to be interesting and new [hey, I was raised Protestant, what do you want?  ], but my attention wandered after a while.)
Anyway, my question is this: why the hubbub over whether it's in English or Latin? I mean, why Latin? Why not Hebrew or Greek or Aramaic? Wouldn't those three make more sense? Seems to me that the inclusion of Latin into the mix is an artificial human work in the matter.
So any help?
Squ33k!
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Aumgn
Registered:
Oct '04
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Date Posted:
9/21/05 2:59am
Subject:
RE: Catholicism
- Date Edited:
9/21/05 3:32am (2 edits total)
Edited By:
Aumgn
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Hey, there's a Paladin and a neo-Paladin here. As Pope Benidict said when he met Darth Sidious:
Popey to Palpy posted:
'DOPPELGÄNGER!'
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Guinastasia
Registered:
Jun '02
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Date Posted:
9/22/05 4:59pm
Subject:
RE: Catholicism
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Jansons_Funny_Twin posted:
A question concerning what language the Mass is in:
(For starters, I'm not Catholic, hell, I'm not even religious anymore, but I have attended Mass with a friend in both English and Latin on a couple occasions, and found the Latin to be interesting and new [hey, I was raised Protestant, what do you want? ], but my attention wandered after a while.)
Anyway, my question is this: why the hubbub over whether it's in English or Latin? I mean, why Latin? Why not Hebrew or Greek or Aramaic? Wouldn't those three make more sense? Seems to me that the inclusion of Latin into the mix is an artificial human work in the matter.
So any help?
Squ33k!
Because it's the ROMAN Catholic church, and the Romans spoke Latin.
Nowadays, I'm sure, if you're in Greece, the Mass would be in Greek.
Liberation theology rules, at least to me. It's basically saying you can't ignore the physical, earthly needs of the people when you attend to their spiritual needs. You can't ignore the poor people, because Christ himself was ALWAYS emphasizing the need to help the poor. Christ wasn't rich, he wasn't for the guys on top-he came from extremely humble, peasant origins. The people DESERVE to be treated with dignity, and not to be ignored.
Considering the situation at the time in Latin America, you can hardly blame the bishops for coming up with it.
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Jedi_Keiran_Halcyon
Registered:
Dec '00
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Date Posted:
9/22/05 6:10pm
Subject:
RE: Catholicism
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If you want something to write on, try the Church's stance on homosexuality. There are a number of canonical documents that cement marriage(and sex)'s procreative purpose from the Catholic POV.
I did the research for a paper several years ago. Discovering that there's really no wiggle room as far as Catholicism and homosexuality are concerned was basically what decided my am-I-aren't-I approach to Catholicism.
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Jansons_Funny_Twin
Registered:
Jul '02
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Date Posted:
9/22/05 8:08pm
Subject:
RE: Catholicism
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Guinastasia posted:
Because it's the ROMAN Catholic church, and the Romans spoke Latin.
Nowadays, I'm sure, if you're in Greece, the Mass would be in Greek.
Gee, thanks for underestimating my intelligence Guin.
What I meant to say was this: what makes Latin Mass any better than Mass in English or French or German? Like I said, I could see it making a difference if it were in Greek (the language of the New Testament), Aramaic (the language of The Passion ), or Hebrew (the language of the target audience of Jesus' time, the Jews), but having it Latin just seems like having it in English, French, or German.
Squ33k!
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For Khaz Modan!
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GrandAdmiralThrawn66
Registered:
Jun '02
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Date Posted:
9/23/05 8:24am
Subject:
RE: Catholicism
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What I meant to say was this: what makes Latin Mass any better than Mass in English or French or German? Like I said, I could see it making a difference if it were in Greek (the language of the New Testament), Aramaic (the language of The Passion ), or Hebrew (the language of the target audience of Jesus' time, the Jews), but having it Latin just seems like having it in English, French, or German.
I dont think you understand, Its NOT the Language of MAss, its the way that mass is handled. All respect and reverance to God is gone nowadays. If you ever went to a traditional Latin Mass you would understand. If the old mass was said in English it would be the same thing. It was extremly stupid to change a 1000 year old mass. The destroyed the alters, tore down the communion wall, moved the Alter, tore statues of mary and jesus down, moved the tabernacle, changed the Music, added more "common" people to the mass, well they basically destroyed it. No wonder why people left, the Church is in trouble.
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Jedi_Liz
Title: Former CR
Lincoln NE, USA
Registered:
Apr '00
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Date Posted:
9/23/05 8:43am
Subject:
RE: Catholicism
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Hey GAT66, what do you mean added more "common" people to the Mass? Do you mean having lay people read the Old Testament and New Testament readings that are before the Gospel? I see nothing wrong with that.
Latin Mass is supposed to be more reverent. But a mass in English can be reverent if the people are reverent.
I've never been to a Latin Mass and one reason is that I don't think I could follow along and the other reason is the use of incese. I have problems when my parish uses it and they only use it a few times a year.
At my parish, they moved the Tabernacle back to its place behind the altar. At first I was against this because the adoration pew is on the right side and that's where the Tabernacle used to be. We still have statues of Jesus and Mary in our Church. They did take down the communion rail - but I didn't know what it was - it was always the place where the priest's cloak/garment was placed during Benediction, for me.
We had something really cool here two days ago - the annual Marian Mass & Procession w/ rosary. The first mystery was said in German, the second was in Czech, the third was in Spanish, the 4th was (Can't remember - it might have been in Spanish instead of the 3rd one) and the 5th was said in Vietnamese. And the Glory be each time was sung in Latin. It was a great cultural experience.
I believe the Latin Mass was used in the 300s and up until Vatican II it was the only language Mass was said in. To be honest, I am glad I can go to Mass in English. But there are many dioceses being allowed to have Traditional Latin Masses again which I think is nice. My own diocese has a FSSP seminary nearby, authorized by the Bishop (I think).
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Ton_G
Registered:
Aug '02
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Date Posted:
9/23/05 1:37pm
Subject:
RE: Catholicism
- Date Edited:
9/23/05 1:38pm (1 edits total)
Edited By:
Ton_G
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Actually, the language does matter.
Why Latin in the first place? Because it became the language of the Western Church and replaced Greek. It is not that Latin is or isn't intrinsically superior (maybe it is...) as a language- but that it became the language of the Church, becoming a part of Catholicism. This language is unchanging, preserving orthodoxy as other languages change. This is ESPECIALLY important in terms of the Canon of the Mass, which if changed can invalidate the sacrament.
At the same time, its general reservation for ecclesiastical use gives it a certain prominence, taking it out of the mundane. This is not to degrade high english and other vernacular tongues, which too may be reverent, though I believe (in my experience) that Latin, in tis relation to liturgy draws one out of the regular in a way an everyday language does not.
And finally, Latin was found universally in the West you could go to Mass anywhere in the Western and follow the Latin. It transcends a single culture, expressing the universality and unity of the Church.
One could say much more than what I have.
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DARK_VADOR
Registered:
Feb '04
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Date Posted:
9/24/05 10:22am
Subject:
RE: Catholicism
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While I'm not Catholic, and disagree with a few aspects of that faith, it's nonetheless a great religion that's taken it's fair share of lumps over the last 2000 years or so. Is the Catholic Church perfect? No, it has it's flaws but it strives to serve God the best it can.
And I certainly do NOT agree with the attempts by those on the left to liberalize Catholicism. Catholicism has stood the test of time and should NOT bend and shape to whatever is in "favor" at the time.
Just as long as it feels good, it doesn't mean that it's ok.
I hope I'm not being too inflammatory here. It appears those who are at odds with my political views will cry "foul" and go into defense mode. Not everyone appears to be open to discussion.
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Jabba-wocky
Registered:
May '03
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Date Posted:
9/24/05 5:19pm
Subject:
RE: Catholicism
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Janson, I think the answer you are looking for is this.
Catholics have developed a wide variety of reasons why they use Latin. However, there is no Biblical mandate to conduct service in only language. One of the original and long-standing reasons for the division between Catholics and Protestants is that believe in the primacy of the Bible, whereas Catholics do not take it as the sole and final authority for determining how things ought to be done.
As a result, Catholics have attached great significance to certain procedures, even when there was no suggestion or precedence that this ought to be done Biblically (though, neither, to be fair, is their anything prohibiting doing things like that in most cases, as I understand). This is one such example.
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jedi_john_33
Registered:
Sep '03
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Date Posted:
9/26/05 12:30pm
Subject:
RE: Catholicism
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Can someone explain the principles of Catholicism?
It isn't for school. It's for my own benefit.
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Jedi_Liz
Title: Former CR
Lincoln NE, USA
Registered:
Apr '00
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Date Posted:
9/26/05 2:15pm
Subject:
RE: Catholicism
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jedi_john, do you mean principle beliefs?
You might find better answers from Catholic Answers.
Click on the library link on the left side and it should explain the most basic of the beliefs of the Catholic Church.
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GrandAdmiralThrawn66
Registered:
Jun '02
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Date Posted:
9/26/05 6:14pm
Subject:
RE: Catholicism
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jedi_john_33 if you have any specific questions id be happy to answer them.
As for Latin in the Mass it just gives some tradition, but thats not my main complant with the newer mass. My main complaint is that that mass just doesnt show the reverence toward God as the old one. I actually feel as though im touching God, part of his miracle. Even if the trinidate mass was transcribed into all English that would be alright too. But even the Old mass wasnt entirely Latin, Father's sermons are ALWAYS English and that was the main part of the mass. I just hate to see a 1700 year old mass be destroyed so I go to the traditional Latin mass.
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