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Topic:
Statuatory Rape: AKA Jailbate.
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FakeHandLuke
Registered:
Nov '01
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Date Posted:
4/14/02 7:51pm
Subject:
RE: Statuatory Rape: AKA Jailbate.
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For anyone interested, there was an artical in Saturdays New York times about a book which, at least periferrally, explores this question. I forget the title of the article, but one should be able to find it online.
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Ultimate
Registered:
Sep '00
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Date Posted:
4/15/02 12:09am
Subject:
RE: Statuatory Rape: AKA Jailbate.
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Binary, may I point out that when most of those religious ideas on marriage ages were created the life expectancy was about half of what it is now. Shorter life spans = a need to get things started earlier. Women couldn't wait until their mid twenties to get married because they'd most likely be dead in 5 years. They also had kids earlier because of low newborn survival rates and a need to perpetuate the species, because you often had to go through multiple pregnancies just to have one surviving child. Plus with no real schooling for the vast majority of the population, people entered the workforce earlier and in agrarian societies having alot of kids is a benefit to survival.
May I also add that just because girls can marry at 14 according to the Catholic church doesn't mean they should. Hell, you can convert to Islam and marry a 9 year old for all I care, but I'll still think you're a degenerate pevert no matter what the Koran says. Who says churches have got human nature right either?
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RiggsWolfe
Registered:
Mar '02
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Date Posted:
4/15/02 12:38am
Subject:
RE: Statuatory Rape: AKA Jailbate.
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Ok, I'm going to post both my original words and Numquan's replies here so a reader to this page who skipped the earlier exchange will get the full picture
ME
Well first off, statuatory rape is such a terrible name for this particular "offense".
The word rape rightfully carries a certain weight and gravity
HIM
That's the POINT...it carries weight and gravity to discourage people from molesting children but trying to shield it as "well, he/she is a mature 14-year-old and knew what he/she was doing." You don't think a 50-year-old, aggressive man could intimidate and manipulate a teenager?
There is a huge difference between molesting children and having sex with a 14-17 year old teenager. Trying to bring in words with emotional impact like "molest" cheapens this discussion. And it is not shielding to say the teenager in question knew what they were doing, far from it. Bringing in a case with a 50 year-old, agressive man is looking for an extreme to make your argument. You're not looking at the general type of situation here. You're looking for the extremes and hence ignoring the big picture. Hell, that scenario, older person intimidating younger can happen at ANY age, so should sex between people be limited to within say 1-2 years of each other to limit this problem?
ME
I'm not sure what to call it, Sexual Acts w/a Minor, something like that.
HIM
Next we can change "first-degree murder" to "voluntarily making someone pass-away," and "stealing" to "displacing property indefinitely." This is the law we're talking about, not Hollywood Squares.
Logical fallacy. You're trying to equate felonies with a much more minor offense. Statuatory "rape" is not rape at all and if I were a woman who'd been raped I'd find the name offensive. Rape is rape. Sex is sex. Molestation is Molestation. Statuatory rape is in general only one of the three, let me give you a clue, it's not rape or molestation. And you're right, it's not Hollywood Squares, so we should not call it something so misleading. It'd be like calling say, having a car wreck something like "Malicious Destruction of Property with a Motor Vehicle". Sometimes it is, sometimes though, you just hit a patch of ice and slide out of control.
ME
I've met 12 year olds who are more mature than most adults, and I've met adults who are less mature...(snip)...To abitrarily slap an age of consent on these things is silly...
HIM
You're saying your anecdotal evidence carries more weight than the experiences of those who made the laws, just because it fits into a neat little reverse relationship? Talk about arbitrary...
Like I and others have said before in this thread, you have to draw a line somewhere, and the agents of the people (courts, elected officials) have done that for them. The majority of the population agrees, otherwise the law would change.
If any of you have the bolas to stand outside a supermarket asking people to sign a petition to make sex totally legal between adults and minors, more power to you. (NAMBLA can probably offer you some pointers.)
The laws were not made based off experiences, the laws were made based off the same type of rigid religious thinking that sometimes causes trouble for people who enjoy such innocent activities as playing roleplaying games and watching Sci-Fi movies.
Yes, a line has to be drawn, but I think the line in this case is very arbitrary, and based more off of people's prejudices than any true corrolation with reality.
As for the majority of the population agreeing
1) I don't think that's necessarily true, it might be, but it might also be that the population is mostly sheep who are afraid to speak up
2) to quote George Carlin:
"Have you ever noticed how stupid the average person is? Now, realize that if that's average, half the people are dumber than that. It's these kinds of thoughts that keep me awake at night."
To spell it out: The majority agreeing means little to me.
Finally, about your supermarket petition. Another logical fallacy in an argument. You're trying to bring emotions into it and trying to say "Hey, you want it, go and do this thing that will probably cause you alot of trouble."
Let me put it this way. Do you remember the man in China who stood in front of the tank in Tienamen Square in defiance of tyranny? Most Chinese didn't do that, they stayed home. Does that mean that freedom is not something that should be sought because most people don't have the "bolas" to do what he did?
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Duckman
Registered:
Jan '00
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Date Posted:
4/15/02 5:31am
Subject:
RE: Statuatory Rape: AKA Jailbate.
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I agree with Binary. There is too much protection of teenagers these days. Before this century, teenagers didn't even exist. You were a child until you reached puberty, and then you were an adult with serious responsibilities. Don't get me wrong, it's nice to have a buffer zone to protect the innocent, but it's not really practical.
In most states, young teenagers can now be tried as adults for crimes. So if they're old enough to get the chair, they should be able to choose who to vote for, what to drink, who to sleep with and all the other rights adults have. IMHO.
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Vaderize03
Title: Manager Emeritus
Registered:
Oct '99
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Date Posted:
4/15/02 11:26am
Subject:
RE: Statuatory Rape: AKA Jailbate.
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Hey Nunquam,
That young lady knew exactly what she was doing. She was no little girl. She was very aware of the power that a flat stomach, small waist, proportioned breasts, and teenage vagina gave her over males, and she exercised that power with full confidence. She tried numerous times to use her flirtatous demeanor to rascal myself and my other friends into doing things that we thought were dumb (like buying her drinks). Since you argue that she needed protection at such a young and tender age, let me tell you that after passing 18, she has now gone on to sleep with two members of the Florida marlins, multiple travelling businessmen (all married), and several fraternity house presidents at her school. I guess the fruits of her maturity have led her to become a poor, misguided soul who's only escape is to spread her legs for the only high she is capable of getting: the male conquest.
I'll say it again. Gimme a break. Plenty of girls who have sex with older guys are using them. They have something very powerful between their legs, and they know it. Men get into barfights over it; they have killed each other throughout the ages for it. It can be called something, but it doesn't deserve the title 'statutory RAPE'.
V-03
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RiggsWolfe
Registered:
Mar '02
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Date Posted:
4/15/02 2:53pm
Subject:
RE: Statuatory Rape: AKA Jailbate.
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Hear hear Vaderize. Bravo. Took guts to stand up to Numquan's very prudish and unrealistic beliefs.
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Vaderize03
Title: Manager Emeritus
Registered:
Oct '99
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Date Posted:
4/15/02 4:58pm
Subject:
RE: Statuatory Rape: AKA Jailbate.
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*smiles at RiggsWolfe, showing his gleaming white teeth*...thanks man! These boards are so much fun!  Later,
V-03
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Nunquam
Registered:
Apr '00
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Date Posted:
4/15/02 5:11pm
Subject:
RE: Statuatory Rape: AKA Jailbate.
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RiggsWolfe your post was a rebuttal not a summary.
Because I don't agree with your idea of whether sex between minors and adults should be permitted, I'm a "prude"? Gimme a break. You don't know anything about me or my attitudes about sex, but it makes it easier to dismiss me if you slap a label on me.
I believe teens need the same protection that other minors do. Maybe it's age -- I'm 36 -- and I see there is a BIG difference between teens and adults. Teens don't have the same level of maturity or experience as adults. Sorry, that's a fact. (Look it up in any child development or general psychology text.) I work at a university and deal with college students every day. I used to teach at a junior high school and had seen it everyday.
I've known plenty of women in my 36 years -- friends, acquaintances, girlfriends -- and most of the ones who behave/have behaved like the girl Vaderize03 talks about have profound problems from their childhood or teenage years. They're not the sexual demons you make them out to be.
It's sad that she has so little respect for herself, and that there are so many men who eagerly take advantage of it.
It's a shame that more women haven't posted in this thread, because I think you would find that many who had early sexual experiences look back on them unhappily or with emotional pain. (Re-read LadyVader's message.)
I chose extreme examples to make my point because everyone else was choosing extreme examples. Everyone kept referring to the star-crossed 17/18 year-old lovers, but didn't pause to consider the less romantic and ugly abuses that would occur. It happens daily, if you care to watch the news.
My comment about the petition was to make people think about real-world opinions on adult-minor sex.
People used "rigid religious systems" as an example in condoning teen/pre-teen marriage and condemning it and being the impetus behind the statutory rape law...well, what is it? Can't have it both ways. (I'm an atheist, by the way.)
I think you'll find the statutory rape law comes from a whole host of child protection laws enacted in the early part of the 20th century. There was a lot of abuse of children in the workplace, in particular. (See a history book.)
All I'm saying is that the statutory rape laws serve a good purpose...to prevent adults from preying on minors for sex. Minors are not prepared for it, among other things in the adult world. Certainly there will be exceptions, but the protection the law provides for the majority of minors is worth more than the exceptions. That majority should not be made vulnerable where the law is concerned. If that makes me "prudish" and "unrealistic" in your eyes, then, oh well.
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Dacks
Registered:
Nov '01
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Date Posted:
4/15/02 5:44pm
Subject:
RE: Statuatory Rape: AKA Jailbate.
- Date Edited:
4/15/02 5:45pm (1 edits total)
Edited By:
Dacks
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I chose extreme examples to make my point because everyone else was choosing extreme examples. Everyone kept referring to the star-crossed 17/18 year-old lovers, but didn't pause to consider the less romantic and ugly abuses that would occur. It happens daily, if you care to watch the news.
The reason we keep referring to this example is because it is absolutely ridiculous that an 18 year old who engages in sexual relations with a 17 year old that s/he might possibly love can be prosecuted for statutory rape. It is just a completely inapproriate word because because rape implies sexual relations against the victim's will. Statutory rape is completely concensual, even if it might be immoral.
Next we can change "first-degree murder" to "voluntarily making someone pass-away," and "stealing" to "displacing property indefinitely."
That's a horrible counterexample. Planning to kill someone in cold blood is first-degree-murder, and violently forcing somebody into sex is rape. Accidentally killing someone in a barfight is manslaughter, and similarly there should be a different name for statutory rape, which is, again, concensual.
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Ariana Lang
Registered:
Oct '99
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Date Posted:
4/15/02 5:50pm
Subject:
RE: Statuatory Rape: AKA Jailbate.
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But as someone pointed out earlier, a line needs to be drawn somewhere. The law is, unfortunately, black and white eventhough life is not, because who wants grey laws that everyone with the IQ of a hole puncher can weasel out of? Maybe you don't agree with the age it's set at right now, but there NEEDS to be an age limit, otherwise child molestation would basically be legal. Someone has to decide where the line between child and adult is drawn. And right now it's at 17 or 18 in most states.
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Dacks
Registered:
Nov '01
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Date Posted:
4/15/02 5:59pm
Subject:
RE: Statuatory Rape: AKA Jailbate.
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No it does not have to be black and white.
When somebody dies at the hand of someone else, it's not black and white. There are multiple degrees of murder and manslaughter.
When somebody steals something, its not black and white. There is grand theft, petty theft, etc...
These are shades of gray. I don't see why they cannot be applied to statutory rape as well. For example a 50yr/12yr relationship old being labelled one thing, an 18yr/17yr another. Either way they are not rape. Until they change that word I am completely against the law.
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Ariana Lang
Registered:
Oct '99
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Date Posted:
4/15/02 6:04pm
Subject:
RE: Statuatory Rape: AKA Jailbate.
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I have to say that I wholeheartedly disagree with you.
Still I find this sentence interesting "I am completely against the law."
So your entire being, entity, soul is illegal? However did you manage that?? 
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Nunquam
Registered:
Apr '00
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Date Posted:
4/15/02 6:07pm
Subject:
RE: Statuatory Rape: AKA Jailbate.
- Date Edited:
4/15/02 6:13pm (2 edits total)
Edited By:
Nunquam
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"...there should be a different name for statutory rape, which is, again, concensual."
My point was not to equate statutory rape with more serious crimes, but that changing the name to make everyone feel better doesn't change the nature or effect of the crime. The word rape is technically correct and its severity carries a deterrent effect for adults.
(As I understand it, if the law doesn't recognize a minor as capable of consenting to sex with an adult, then it is non-consensual sex...rape. The act is rape because it is made so by statute.)
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Dacks
Registered:
Nov '01
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Date Posted:
4/15/02 6:11pm
Subject:
RE: Statuatory Rape: AKA Jailbate.
- Date Edited:
4/15/02 6:13pm (1 edits total)
Edited By:
Dacks
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Well maybe you have to be in the situation to understand. I broke up with my underage gf about a month after turning 18, but never, um (blush) committed the act during this time because I was away at school.
However, if we had stayed together, neither of us, nor our respective parents, nor anyone (reasonable) in the community would have dissaproved. And if somebody ever dared to call me a rapist they would have gotten punched (by me) and slapped (by my gf). Actually she'd probably have kicked them in the groin.
The fact that one day something can be legal, the next day illegal, and then a month later legal again is pretty stupid.
And yes my whole being is against the law. I defy the laws of extreme beauty, intelligence, and humbleness.
ADDED: Unfortunately in the real world, rape has much more heinous implications.
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Ariana Lang
Registered:
Oct '99
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Date Posted:
4/15/02 11:41pm
Subject:
RE: Statuatory Rape: AKA Jailbate.
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::bangs head on table:: Ok -- you missed my witty little double meaning. But that's ok. It was pretty obscure.
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