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Topic:
Statuatory Rape: AKA Jailbate.
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Dark Lady Mara
Title: Manager Emeritus
Registered:
Jun '99
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Date Posted:
4/15/02 11:45pm
Subject:
RE: Statuatory Rape: AKA Jailbate.
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An eighteen year old/seventeen year old relationship is not statutory rape in any state. Statutory rape is defined as sex between an adult and a minor who is four or more years younger than the adult. You can find this in the books.
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Kimball_Kinnison
Registered:
Oct '01
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Date Posted:
4/15/02 11:51pm
Subject:
RE: Statuatory Rape: AKA Jailbate.
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It depends on the state. Some states (like Virginia IIRC) limit it to 2 years difference, not 4.
Kimball Kinnison
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Vaderize03
Title: Manager Emeritus
Registered:
Oct '99
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Date Posted:
4/16/02 7:39am
Subject:
RE: Statuatory Rape: AKA Jailbate.
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Nunquam you are correct it is a shame that she has so little respect for herself. However, her behavior has not changed since turning 18, and frankly, she is responsible for her own bad judgement. While your argument that minors need protection from sexual predators is valid, the extended argument, that they need protection from themselves, is a glib statement from someone who has the benefit of experience. Whether that person be you, me, or lawmakers in a distant capital, kids will experiment, and there will never be a substitute for experience, even bad ones. We learn from them, they help define who we are. I can feel sorry for her, but it does not behoove me to tell her what to do, and magically turning 18 did not suddenly spark a major change in her behavior. She will have to grow up and learn for herself.
And I am arguing here from the viewpoint of teenagers having sex with other teenagers. While adult/teen sex does happen, I have stated before that I do not believe any consensual act can be labelled RAPE. Rape is forcible, without consent. The counter-argument is that teens are not capable of consent, which is absurd. We teach teenagers about the risks of sex in school, we make condoms available to all, as well as BCP's. We give them the tools, yet they are not capable of consent? The real argument here is that teens and consent are mutually exclusive. Nonsense. If child development texts claim that teenagers are not developed enough to give consent, the why does the law emancipate minors under specific circumstances? If a teenager is out on their own and they hold a steady job and support themselves, this short-cuts the developmental stages they have yet to traverse? Teenagers can consent to give blood, to have a sports physical, to have drug tests...why not have sex with somebody older? It's an identical argument to the idea that a person who is terminally ill and wishes to die cannot possibly be competent; no competent person would want to die. Such a viewpoint is naive at best, fascist at worst.
As far as the extremes or the news goes, so what?? The extremes miss one important point: they leave out the middle, which tends to make up the majority of cases. No one will object to the fact that a 40-yr old having sex with a 17-yr old is morally reprehensible; but to say that two teens having consensual sex is RAPE, with the record, the stigmata and the prison sentence that goes with such a conviction is, simply put, wrong.
End of Line.
V-03
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KaineDamo
Registered:
Mar '02
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Date Posted:
4/16/02 8:09am
Subject:
RE: Statuatory Rape: AKA Jailbate.
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I can understand how you wouldn't view consensual sex between an 18 year old and a 17 year old as rape. But, what about a 19 year old and a 16 year old? A 20 year old and a 15 year old? Or even the case that basicly started this thread?
When is a child no longer a child? As soon as they hit 13? As soon as they hit puberty? No. Thats nonsense. But thats what some of you would have the rest of us believe. A line MUST be drawn somewhere. In the case of an 18 year old and a 17 year old, that case would probably never even reach the courtroom. How would that even get reported to the police??? People do use common sense you know.
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Dacks
Registered:
Nov '01
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Date Posted:
4/16/02 9:06am
Subject:
RE: Statuatory Rape: AKA Jailbate.
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::Shakes head slowly and sighs:: No Ariana, it is you who missed my witty little triple meaning. But it was extra subtle.
If the 4yr or 2yr rule exists in all states than I don't really have as much of a problem with statutory rape (which is still too strong a word for a 20/17 age differential). I'm Canuckian, so my knowledge is based on media (film, television, etc...) and discussions with American friends.
Unfortunately, people don't always use common sense. I for one know a few fathers who would gladly go to court if their 17 daugther was dating an 18 year old.
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RiggsWolfe
Registered:
Mar '02
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Date Posted:
4/16/02 10:51am
Subject:
RE: Statuatory Rape: AKA Jailbate.
- Date Edited:
4/16/02 10:56am (1 edits total)
Edited By:
RiggsWolfe
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RiggsWolfe your post was a rebuttal not a summary.
Actually I never said my post was a summary, what I said was that I included both my original post and your reply so someone who came to it fresh would understand the full context of our discussion.
Because I don't agree with your idea of whether sex between minors and adults should be permitted, I'm a "prude"? Gimme a break. You don't know anything about me or my attitudes about sex, but it makes it easier to dismiss me if you slap a label on me.
Actually, I cannot tell you how ironic it is that you speak of slapping labels on people to dismiss them. Read some of your own posts where you essentially call people who don't believe as you do molestors and rapists.
I believe teens need the same protection that other minors do. Maybe it's age -- I'm 36 -- and I see there is a BIG difference between teens and adults. Teens don't have the same level of maturity or experience as adults. Sorry, that's a fact. (Look it up in any child development or general psychology text.) I work at a university and deal with college students every day. I used to teach at a junior high school and had seen it everyday.
I am 30 and while I know that teens do not have the same level of maturity as adults, I know that most of them are no longer children. They are somewhere in between, 'tweens as I saw them called in a book I once read. I go to university and deal with them as well. And my experience has been that some are very immature, some are more mature than I am. You would lump them all together, I would not.
I've known plenty of women in my 36 years -- friends, acquaintances, girlfriends -- and most of the ones who behave/have behaved like the girl Vaderize03 talks about have profound problems from their childhood or teenage years. They're not the sexual demons you make them out to be.
I never made them out to be sexual demons, I just refuse to believe that 16 or 17 or 18 is some magic number. Some are truly ready before those numbers, some aren't ready til later. And while you talk about the older man sexual predator archetype, you tend to dismiss the equally valid Lolita archetype.
It's sad that she has so little respect for herself, and that there are so many men who eagerly take advantage of it.
Yes her feelings about herself are sad. Though I would say the men are being taken advantage of just as much as she is.
It's a shame that more women haven't posted in this thread, because I think you would find that many who had early sexual experiences look back on them unhappily or with emotional pain. (Re-read LadyVader's message.)
if LadyVader is the one I am thinking of, the underlying current in her post was that she was raped. Don't equate rape with consensual sex of any kind.
I chose extreme examples to make my point because everyone else was choosing extreme examples. Everyone kept referring to the star-crossed 17/18 year-old lovers, but didn't pause to consider the less romantic and ugly abuses that would occur. It happens daily, if you care to watch the news.
Alot of stuff happens daily according to the news. What they don't sure are the many more cases of totally normal events, including a normal healthy relationship between people with such an age difference.
My comment about the petition was to make people think about real-world opinions on adult-minor sex.
You know what they say about opinions, I'll give you a hint, it also relates to part of the human anatomy. I refuse to run my life based off of popular opinion. They call that being a sheep. I much prefer being a wolf.
People used "rigid religious systems" as an example in condoning teen/pre-teen marriage and condemning it and being the impetus behind the statutory rape law...well, what is it? Can't have it both ways. (I'm an atheist, by the way.)
Actually, you can have it both ways, because religion changes it mind about things all the time. As well, there are differences within the same religion, particularly among different denominations. Look at say the difference between a Baptist and a Catholic, or a Sunni muslem and a shi'ite. (I may not have spelled either of those right.)
I think you'll find the statutory rape law comes from a whole host of child protection laws enacted in the early part of the 20th century. There was a lot of abuse of children in the workplace, in particular. (See a history book.)
I still believe the statuatory "Rape" laws came more from a kneejerk reaction due to America's ties to the more strict denominations of Christianity. It might have happened at the same time as the other laws, but my guess is it was a case of "hey, we're passing these other laws, let's throw these in here". Probably said by a senator while his 15 year old intern was under his desk..well you get the picture.
All I'm saying is that the statutory rape laws serve a good purpose...to prevent adults from preying on minors for sex. Minors are not prepared for it, among other things in the adult world. Certainly there will be exceptions, but the protection the law provides for the majority of minors is worth more than the exceptions. That majority should not be made vulnerable where the law is concerned. If that makes me "prudish" and "unrealistic" in your eyes, then, oh well.
I still do not believe teenagers are truly "Minors". And I sure as hell don't believe that that law is properly named or properly enforced.
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Ariana Lang
Registered:
Oct '99
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Date Posted:
4/16/02 7:20pm
Subject:
RE: Statuatory Rape: AKA Jailbate.
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Triple meaning?? Yeah...well...you missed my quadruple meaning!...
Yeah!
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son_of_the_tear
Registered:
Jun '99
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Date Posted:
4/16/02 8:32pm
Subject:
RE: Statuatory Rape: AKA Jailbate.
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Well, Jerry Seindelf, a few years ago was dating a 17 year old girl. He was 40 at the time.
No one seemed to cry foul back then.
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Genghis12
Title: Manager Emeritus
Registered:
Nov '99
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Date Posted:
4/18/02 6:36am
Subject:
RE: Statuatory Rape: AKA Jailbate.
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Why Statuatory Rape Laws Exist: "She enticed me..."
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Dacks
Registered:
Nov '01
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Date Posted:
4/18/02 10:45am
Subject:
RE: Statuatory Rape: AKA Jailbate.
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There's no statutory rape there. He's getting charged with sexual assault.
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exiled_padawan
Registered:
Apr '02
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Date Posted:
4/18/02 10:51am
Subject:
bit messed up
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i dont think its v wise but rape is a bit harsh.
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Genghis12
Title: Manager Emeritus
Registered:
Nov '99
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Date Posted:
4/18/02 11:02am
Subject:
RE: Statuatory Rape: AKA Jailbate.
- Date Edited:
4/18/02 11:05am (1 edits total)
Edited By:
Genghis12
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Dacks...
Don't get lost on the semantics. In most places, fourth-degree sexual assult is generally and simply "having sex without consent." No extenuating circumstances (threats of violence, violence, etc.), no specifics - it's a general, vague charge, able to cover many situations from "intoxication-rape," "drug-rape," and "statuatory rape."
That is one such law which can generally pass for "statuatory rape laws," but not the only one. Different places may call it different things and have their laws set up differently than where you live.
He was charged with numerous counts of 4-th degree sexual assult as well as worse crimes.
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Intelligently Fitting The newer EU into Established Star Wars Continuity (Or How About a No-Prize)
http://boards.theforce.net/message.asp?topic=1111146
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Dacks
Registered:
Nov '01
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Date Posted:
4/18/02 11:39am
Subject:
RE: Statuatory Rape: AKA Jailbate.
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But the semantics are what I've been arguing this whole time.
If two people have consenting sex, but one is a minor, it's statutory rape. However, if it can be shown that the offender used authoritive means to coerce the individual into having sex, it is classified under sexual assault. That's the case here, you could prove in a court that the 10 year old was taken advantage of into having sex with the old man.
I have no problem if somebody who takes advantage of a minor gets accused of sexual assault. I do have a problem, however, when someone gets accused of "statutory rape" when it is obvious that both parties were mature enough and willing to engage in sexual activity.
For those who would argue that "who's gonna decided if someone's mature enough" etc... Well that's what we have judge and jury for. They do it all the time in other crimes, I don't see why it can't be used in statutory rape cases as well.
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Rebecca191
Registered:
Nov '99
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Date Posted:
4/18/02 5:43pm
Subject:
RE: Statuatory Rape: AKA Jailbate.
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That story sickened me.
And to think it happened like 15 minutes from where I live.
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Duckman
Registered:
Jan '00
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Date Posted:
4/24/02 6:00am
Subject:
RE: Statuatory Rape: AKA Jailbate.
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Interesting quote from an article in the latest issue of Time Magazine (the Yoda one).
"Those attracted to teenagers are sometimes said to suffer "ephebophilia," but perhaps because so many youth-obsessed Americans would qualify, psychiatrists don't classify ephebophilia as an illness."
So calling an adult who wants to sleep with a 15 year old a sick pedophile is in fact incorrect.
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