Author Topic: Religious Sanctuary Thread
_Darth_Brooks_ 
Registered: Sep '00
23037_Jedi Outcast
Date Posted: 5/14/02 11:34pm Subject: Religious Sanctuary Thread - Date Edited: 6/3/02 9:41pm (2 edits total) Edited By: Lord Bane
Equal space, equal expression.

I've observed that there was a perceived interest and need for some forum members to open and inhabit a forum thread called a "Non Religious Sanctuary," so it only seems logical that there must likewise be a need for those who are religious to have a sanctuary, a counterpart and counterpoint to much of the commentary directed against religious thoughts and perspectives.


Only recently did I enter into the aforementioned thread, reading the curiosities of invective, hostility, ridicule, ignorance of the subject, and general misunderstandings written against the faiths so many of us dearly embrace. Naturally, out of respect and politeness, I have not posted any sort of comment or rebuttal in the other sanctuary.
I can appreciate their line in the sand.

Atheism:

Ironically, the oldest reference to atheism I can locate is contained amongst the oldest of the Holy Bible's books, in a scripture purported to be authored by histories wisest individual, King Solomon, under the influence of the holy Spirit; " A fool in his heart says there is no God."


"To you I'm an atheist, to God I'm the loyal opposition."
~ Woody Allen


Is atheism dangerous?

From a Biblical perspective. Certainly the Bible offers the inherent dangers faced by individuals and societies that eschew certain precise moral principles.

From a secular humanist perspective. By this I'm meaning to address those atheists, such as Joseph Stalin, who were responsible for the genocide of multiple tens of millions of human beings. Though it must be understood, not all atheists are mass murders. Some are truly upstanding individuals. We must not villify a whole group of people for the heinous actions of a few.


Is atheism a moral evil? Considering the first Commandment is basically to Worship God, it would seem from a Judeo-Christian standpoint the answer is yes. But why? That is something I'd like to explore.



True Christianity: It is necessary, I believe, to present what scripture has to say of "false Christ's," and wolves in sheep's clothing, in order to address atrocities committed in the very name of God and Christ.

Once this is addressed, it should succinctly dispel many atheist's charges against Christianity. The Bible speaks out in unison with many of the complaints of non-Christian's against alleged 'Christian' actions.



As has been oft repeated, and once avowed by a local university professor:" Why do I believe in God? Simple logic; if the atheist is right I have lost nothing in subscribing to a benevolent philosophy. However, if the atheist is wrong I have lost everything."


What does atheism have to offer? Truth? A truth that can nowhere be substantiated? But isn't that succinctly the atheist complaint against deity? Never once has the ghost of an atheist returned from the dead to proclaim in triumph "There is no God!"
Conversely, history ancient and modern is replete with chronicles of N.D.E.'s, with multitudes of individuals describing encountering an afterlife and the existence of God, and untold hundreds of millions have reportedly given witness to encounters with a divine creator as well as the angelic and demonic.


Atheism isn't "atheology," or a science, nor truly scientifically based in that there is no rational way to apply even the modest procedural requirements of The Scientific Method. Logic certainly cannot be applied to disproving God, as has been proven by quite a number of contemporary philosophers.

And yet, logically, a theist can certainly validate God not appearing under a microscope, or jumping through any hoops. Man is simply arrogant.

Atheism seems to derive itself in personal incorporation from either despondency, rebellion, or mere self-interest. If, self-interest, it is interesting to note the etymology of a particular word. Freud used the abbreviated word "Id" in characterizing part of his view of the psychological make-up of the human persona representing 'self,' derived from the Greek word 'Idios', from which we get our modern word "idiot." Does this mean that obsession with the self is idiocy or rather that is that an idle coincidence?

It is also a mild curiosity to recognize that without theism, or God, 'theos',there can be no 'atheism.' To even deny God then is involving an acknowledgement of diety. In this sense atheism sort of self-destructs, contradicting its on purpose in the very label it must utilize to express itself. A funny little paradoxical joke of a kind.


It is interesting to note that within this very forum exists another semantical irony, the "non-religious sanctuary," considering that the word sanctuary is definitely and unequivocally religious terminology. I'll get into the history of that word later as well.

I'd also like to openly and honestly discuss specific individuals personally known, who were self professed atheists. I've never met a superlatively moral atheist, although I've known quite a few who put up a very respectable front, but were truthfully adulterers, drug abusers, alcoholics, philandering hedonists with little true regard for fellow human beings beyond using them for purposes of self-interest. Yes, I have a number of former friends and acquaintances in mind with these words. Business associates who dressed impeccably, with well groomed cuticles, $200 dollar imported leather footwear, and a friendly broad smile, who'd throw their own mother into a sack full of agitated rattlesnakes if the price was right, and destroy coworkers for far less.

No, this isn't vitriol, or a diatribe, just good old fashioned candor.

You see I've noticed that 'atheists' always buttress their stances with accounts of individuals and stereotypes, but rarely the true philosophy, thus I think that it is important to give observations of individuals adhering to atheism.

This is to be a frank and truthful thread for those of us who wish to discuss matters of concern or interest from a religious perspective.

I've stated "atheism" as a matter for discussion, it's impact of Christianity (postitive, negative?), although that isn't the end all, be all of this thread. Just a starting point.

Lord Bane: Do not attack. Do not try to incite flame wars. Use evidence.



Lock: Discuss evolution, creationism and all those other things elsewhere. This "sanctuary" farce has gone on long enough.

 

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Jorus_Kando 
Registered: Nov '01
8000_X-Wing Fighters
Date Posted: 5/14/02 11:56pm Subject: RE: Religious Sanctuary Thread
I don't see the need for a "religious sanctuary." It was the amount of religion-oriented threads that caused the non-religious sanctuary" to be created in the first place.

As for "invective, hostility, ridicule, ignorance of the subject," I haven't seen much of it, if at all, in that thread. Sure, there's been a couple dismissive comments I don't care for, but overall, it's a good read. You don't have to agree with every post to enjoy the discussion.

If someone else wants to say that in their opinion, I believe in "fairy tales," that's his right, just as believing in whom I will is mine.

 

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Ariana Lang 
Registered: Oct '99
7837_Queen Amidala
Date Posted: 5/15/02 12:00am Subject: RE: Religious Sanctuary Thread
Oh please. I think if atheists are allowed to have a thread, than theists are allowed to have a thread, and anything else would be prejudiced.

 

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Jorus_Kando 
Registered: Nov '01
8000_X-Wing Fighters
Date Posted: 5/15/02 12:05am Subject: RE: Religious Sanctuary Thread
Technically, sure. But there's never been a shortage of religion-oriented topics to discuss here. We're not an overwhelmed minority in need of "sanctuary."

I don't oppose the thread so much as Brook's rather inflammatory remarks, which are pretty much in line with the hostility he takes issue with on the "other" thread.

 

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1stAD 
Registered: May '01
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Date Posted: 5/15/02 12:08am Subject: RE: Religious Sanctuary Thread
I'm not going to bother PM'ing the mods this time, but I was against the creation of the Non-religious sanctuary thread as well. What will inevitably happen is a "cold" flame war between members of the two little cliques. Members of one group will read threads in another and formulate responses within the safety of their own group. What it boils down to is one group complaining about another and vice-versa. The very idea of these sanctuary threads defeats the purpose of The Senate Floor, which I thought was going to be a forum for DISCUSSION and DEBATE over issues, not socializing. But whatever. The mods okayed it, so I really can't do anything. This will be like the TPM Forum part II. plain

 

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Jorus_Kando 
Registered: Nov '01
8000_X-Wing Fighters
Date Posted: 5/15/02 12:26am Subject: RE: Religious Sanctuary Thread
Well put, 1stAD. let's just hope it doesn't come to that.

 

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Wylding 
Registered: Aug '00
6600_Obi-Wan Kenobi
Date Posted: 5/15/02 12:56am Subject: RE: Religious Sanctuary Thread
Oh come on now people. I'm a staunch theist and I actually gave the athiests a warm welcome in their thread.

I think they'll all rise to the occasion as well. Afterall, they are a pretty mature group happy

 

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Darkside_Spirit 
Registered: Sep '01
Date Posted: 5/15/02 5:31am Subject: RE: Religious Sanctuary Thread
If you were to read the first post in the Non-Religious Sanctuary Thread, you would see that it is not a place to bash religion unopposed. Moreover, you would see that anyone who does post religion-critical matter must be prepared to defend their opinions.

This thread, on the other hand, is clearly a place where you can ridicule atheism* safe from scrutiny. Whether the moderators will allow such an exercise is beyond my control, but I certainly will not refrain from posting in here as long as my viewpoints are being attacked.

* Considering that "religious" includes Buddhism, an atheist religion, perhaps you should change the title to "theist".

Ironically, the oldest reference to atheism I can locate is contained amongst the oldest of the Holy Bible's books, in a scripture purported to be authored by histories wisest individual, King Solomon, under the influence of the holy Spirit; " A fool in his heart says there is no God."


"Whoever saith, Thou fool, shall be in danger of hell fire" --Matthew 5:22

From a secular humanist perspective. By this I'm meaning to address those atheists, such a s Joseph Stalin, who were responsible for the genocide of multiple tens of millions of human beings.


And perhaps I'm meaning to address those Christians, such as Adolf Hitler, who were responsible for the genocide of millions of human beings, and whose faith directly inspired such actions.

As has been oft repeated, and once avowed by a local university professor:" Why do I believe in God? Simple logic; if the atheist is right I have lost nothing in subscribing to a benevolent philosophy. However, if the atheist is wrong I have lost everything."


Fairly bog-standard formulation of Pascal's Wager.

(1) What about other religions? According to some versions of Islam, Judaism, etc, Christians have "lost everything".

(2) What do you lose by subscribing to Christianity, if it is wrong? You sacrifice intellectual honesty, and you waste your life on a vain hope.

What does atheism have to offer? Truth? A truth that can nowhere be substantiated? But isn't that succinctly the atheist complaint against deity? Never once has the ghost of an atheist returned from the dead to proclaim in triumph "There is no God!"


Atheism is merely the absence of theism. Theism is the positive claim--and so theism holds the burden of proof. If theism cannot be proved, atheism wins by default.

Conversely, history ancient and modern is replete with chronicles of N.D.E.'s, with multitudes of individuals describing encountering an afterlife and the existence of God, and untold hundreds of millions have reportedly given witness to encounters with a divine creator as well as the angelic and demonic.


But the marked feature of these "supernatural" experiences is that, as a society becomes more and more advanced, their frequency decreases. Perhaps you could provide just one example of where, as David Hume challenged, the falsehood of the person's testimony would be more miraculous than the event itself.

Atheism isn't "atheology," or a science, nor truly scientifically based in that there is no rational way to apply even the modest procedural requirements of The Scientific Method. Logic certainly cannot be applied to disproving God, as has been proven by quite a number of contemporary philosophers.


Again, vague appeals to authority, and a tacit concession that religion is irrational.

Atheism seems to derive itself in personal incorporation from either despondency, rebellion, or mere self-interest. If, self-interest, it is interesting to note the etymology of a particular word. Freud used the abbreviated word "Id" in characterizing part of his view of the psychological make-up of the human persona representing 'self,' derived from the Greek word 'Idios', from which we get our modern word "idiot." Thus, self-centeredness is idiocy.


And there are many psychological explanations for subscription to theism, too (as well as many aspects of theism that are egotistical and self-centred, such as eternal paradise for the "elect"). Ironically, Freud--an atheist--pinpointed several of them.

It is also a mild curiosity to recognize that without theism, or God, 'theos',there can be no 'atheism.' To even deny God then is involving an acknowledgement of diety. In this sense atheism sort of self-destructs, contradicting its on purpose in the very label it must utilize to express itself. A funny little paradoxical joke of a kind.


Denying that a God exists merely presupposes the existence of God as a concept. This is like saying "without the existence of magic elves, we cannot say there are no magic elves". It's utterly ridiculous.

It is interesting to note that within this very forum exists another semantical irony, the "non-religious sanctuary," considering that the word sanctuary is definitely and unequivocally religious terminology. I'll get into the history of that word later as well.


Religion has pervaded and influenced the development of the English language. This does not remove an atheist's right to speak.

(Note: with all due respect, your post is a joke). grin

[blockquote]What are the merits of atheism? What does this philosophy offer to adherents?[/blockquote]

Atheism is not a "philosophy", any more than baldness is a hairstyle. And like I've said, rejection of unsubstantiated propositions (i.e. theism) is required in the name of intellectual honesty--not to mention all the harm that religion can wreak.

[blockquote]I'd also like to openly and honestly discuss specific individuals personally known, who were self professed atheists. I've never met a superlatively moral atheist, although I've known quite a few who put up a very respectable front, but were truthfully adulterers, drug abusers, alcoholics, philandering hedonists with little true regard for fellow human beings beyond using them for purposes of self-interest.[/blockquote]

Yadda, yadda, yadda.

[blockquote]Yes, I have a number of former friends and acquaintances in mind with these words. Business associates who dressed impeccably, with well groomed cuticles, $200 dollar imported leather footwear, and a friendly broad smile, who'd throw their own mother into a sack full of agitated rattlesnakes if the price was right, and destroy coworkers for far less.[/blockquote]

Yadda, yadda, yadda.

(Have you ever heard of the expressions generalisation and ad hominem? Look them up sometime, it might improve your debating prowess.)

 

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toochilled 
Registered: Oct '00
19923_Royal Guard
Date Posted: 5/15/02 5:40am Subject: RE: Religious Sanctuary Thread
Aaaah,

well - I was going to do the whole religion IS NOT JUST YOUR PERSONAL BRAND OF CATHOLOCISM bit - but it's been done.
nice one D_S

 

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Wylding 
Registered: Aug '00
6600_Obi-Wan Kenobi
Date Posted: 5/15/02 6:39am Subject: RE: Religious Sanctuary Thread
Welcome to the Religious Sanctuary Thread DS. I hope you have fun happy

 

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_Darth_Brooks_ 
Registered: Sep '00
23037_Jedi Outcast
Date Posted: 5/15/02 7:47am Subject: RE: Religious Sanctuary Thread - Date Edited: 5/15/02 7:59am (1 edits total) Edited By: _Darth_Brooks_
Only a moment to respond, in general, to some of the comments(I'd like to respond in some depth a little later as time permits):

1.) Some of you didn't entirely read the initial post above, or simply ignored my intent as expressed.

2.)Let me make it very clear,(emphasis not yelling)THERE IS ABSOLUTELY NO ANGER ON MY PART, but there was a healthy amount of 'tongue in cheek'. happy

3.)(Especially for the ever astute Dark-Side)This thread was never described as an arena for "debate", nor was an invitation to debate extended. BUT, if you felt it as such...how does carrot taste? Did you remove the string before biting? grin

Adjunct: Mr. Dark-Side, the reference to 'Rudolph Hilter'(Monty Python ref, not a typo) is a bit of a redundency in some ways don't you think? Neither of us intellectually subscribe to your notion in truth, do we? My guess is that you suppose mentioning Hitler in conjunction with Christianity is meant to bullseye a raw nerve
or two, when in actuality it is more akin to beating a dead horse. However, as my former words intimated, the nazi leader was certainly tacitly refered to for subsequent discussion.

But, frankly, the whole attempt at branding Hitler a Christian is so ridiculously absurd
it has no place in a serious discussion between lucid parties debating( your word) atheism. It is definitely a vacuously contrived Trojan Rabbit.

Consider, one should possess a modicum of knowledge on a subject one intends to debate.
If the source of Christianity is, for the sake of argument here, The Holy Bible, then the matrix of that religion by its own written definitions disavows the notion that Hitler was a Christian. What you are doing is precisely the same as insisting that a wolf seen prowling the perimeter of a sheep farm is a lamb.

Let me ask you, if walking down the street today you come across a drunken indigent who says he is Christ returned, between loud expletives and talk of little green men, will you return to the forum this evening saying that you've met God Incarnate?

Hitler, although not an indigent by the time of his ascension to prominence as Der Fuhrer, was actually a "street person" for a period of his life. He also firmly believed he was a Messiah, complete with the prerequisite hearing of voices. The Holy Bible did describe individuals like Hitler with the appellation anti-christ.

But you inadvertantly touched upon a theme I'd like to explore involving the perilous dangers of religion, particularly from the Biblical perspective in accordance with verses depicting an approaching global religious order of diabolical origin. Yes, the atheist has good reason to fear "religion" in the future, although not entirely for the reason some atheists seem to suspect. In this sense, both the atheist and the Christian are standing abreast, with an eye to suspicion observing the movement of religion on the horizon. It doesn't bode well for either of us, according to the ominous prevalence of events now in our headlines which were foretold millenia ago.


Finally, my words were not "ad hominem", but if that was your perspective, so be it.


4.)"Inflammatory" is a very strong word. Yet, is a double standard being applied to my comments? As suggested by my comments, basically I just mirrored what I saw in the other sanctuary.

This begs a valid question: Why is it accceptable for the non-religious membership to critique 'religion', especially Christianity, across the board in every way shape and form, and the reciprocal is unacceptable?


But that isn't my intent with this thread. This is not about "payback", or with a vengeful sense of retribution...at all.

AND,while respecting the cyber domicile of "the loyal opposition" in this forum, my purpose has been to provide a place apart from debate, where those of us who have faith could discuss issues brought up elsewhere, without engaging in a flame war, yet able to express ourselves freely.










AGAIN, my words regarding atheism as I see it, and have experienced it, are in no way meant to assert that all atheists are represented by my words in this thread.

I'm certain there are some 'good' atheists.


My earlier words were described as ad hominem, which is unfortunate, and undeserved, and I'll be glad to go into further detail givng an account of the lifestyle of the atheists I've known closely, once myself being probably numbered amongst their ranks, althought I more accurately might have been described as an agnostic.









 

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toochilled 
Registered: Oct '00
19923_Royal Guard
Date Posted: 5/15/02 7:54am Subject: RE: Religious Sanctuary Thread
''my purpose has been to provide a place apart from debate, where those of us who have faith could discuss issues brought up elsewhere''


Cool.


So, as my mate would say, which Guru rules your world?

Personally I'm a bit of a traditionalist and just can't get enough of Guru Nanak.

happy

 

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_Darth_Brooks_ 
Registered: Sep '00
23037_Jedi Outcast
Date Posted: 5/15/02 8:02am Subject: RE: Religious Sanctuary Thread - Date Edited: 5/15/02 8:04am (1 edits total) Edited By: _Darth_Brooks_
The Kang Guru. wink

"All life is influenced by ones tail."

His best tenet to date. I'd like to give a little exposition, but it kinda jumps all around, and I don't have any more time at the moment.




 

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Riley Man 
Registered: Dec '99
8000_X-Wing Fighters
Date Posted: 5/15/02 8:50am Subject: RE: Religious Sanctuary Thread
It's interesting that when you compare the way this thread was initiated to the "Non-Religious Sanctuary", this is the one that decided to go into a long diatribe implying why non-religious people are immoral. If you wanted a sanctuary away from these people, why the attempt to incite them?

I have to question the moral resolve in creating this thread. wink

 

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Darkside_Spirit 
Registered: Sep '01
Date Posted: 5/15/02 8:59am Subject: RE: Religious Sanctuary Thread - Date Edited: 5/15/02 9:11am (3 edits total) Edited By: Darkside_Spirit
This thread was never described as an arena for "debate", nor was an invitation to debate extended.


Convenient for you. wink

Consider, one should possess a modicum of knowledge on a subject one intends to debate.
If the source of Christianity is, for the sake of argument here, The Holy Bible, then the matrix of that religion by its own written definitions disavows the notion that Hitler was a Christian. What you are doing is precisely the same as insisting that a wolf seen prowling the perimeter of a sheep farm is a lamb.


You sought to criticise atheists--as a whole--by bringing up examples of what some of them have done in the past. Consequently, I named Hitler as one Christian whose record is hardly exemplary. My point is that, if we are to judge particular groups by what some of their members have done, then Christians are far more vulnerable to such a tactic than atheists.

Your way of looking at things puts me in a lose-lose situation. If you define a Christian as "someone who is morally good", then of course I won't be able to find any examples of immoral "Christians"! Similarly, if I were to claim that nobody who commits evil acts is a "true atheist", you would naturally be unable to find any examples of evil atheists, since using that definition of the word, "evil atheist" would be an oxymoron.

Unless you twist the definition of "Christian" so as to exclude by default any perpetrator of immoral behaviour, Hitler was most definitely a Christian, because he followed and believed in the teachings of Jesus Christ.

"I am now as before a Catholic and will always remain so" --Hitler, to General Gerhart Engel

"Hence today I believe that I am acting in accordance with the will of the Almighty Creator: by defending myself against the Jew, I am fighting for the work of the Lord." --Mein Kampf

"Gott mit uns" --Nazi belt buckles

"The best characterization is provided by the product of this religious education, the Jew himself. His life is only of this world, and his spirit is inwardly as alien to true Christianity as his nature two thousand years previous was to the great founder of the new doctrine. Of course, the latter made no secret of his attitude toward the Jewish people, and when necessary he even took the whip to drive from the temple of the Lord this adversary of all humanity, who then as always saw in religion nothing but an instrument for his business existence. In return, Christ was nailed to the cross, while our present-day party Christians debase themselves to begging for Jewish votes at elections and later try to arrange political swindles with atheistic Jewish parties-- and this against their own nation." --Hitler

The only way to deny Hitler's Christianity is to define "Christian" in a bigoted manner, ie- "to be Christian is to be moral", which is the refrain of those who would believe that you can determine someone's morality (or lack thereof) by simply asking what religious beliefs he holds. Those who would deny Hitler's Christianity on the basis of his immoral actions are guilty of not only religious bigotry but also circular logic: as they see it, Hitler is consistent with their belief that all Christians are moral because he was not a Christian, and they know he was not a Christian because all Christians are moral!


--StarDestroyer.Net

Finally, my words were not "ad hominem", but if that was your perspective, so be it.


You promulgated a vitriolic attack on atheists on account of their supposedly being "adulterers, drug abusers, alcoholics, philandering hedonists with little true regard for fellow human beings beyond using them for purposes of self-interest". I'd go beyond ad hominem, and say that remarks like these constitute flames.

AND,while respecting the cyber domicile of "the loyal opposition" in this forum, my purpose has been to provide a place apart from debate, where those of us who have faith could discuss issues brought up elsewhere, without engaging in a flame war, yet able to express ourselves freely.


But you have not engaged in discussing side-issues relevant to religious believers. Rather, you have attacked atheists in the most vitriolic of manners. If I were to post a similar assault on Christianity in the Non-Religious Sanctuary Thread, I'm sure that Christians would come in and oppose it. Similarly, you cannot bash atheists and then expect us to turn a blind eye.

The Non-Religious Sanctuary Thread is a place to discuss issues (e.g. religious bigotry) relevant to nonbelievers, not to attack religions unopposed. This thread, on the other hand, is clearly an enclave for you to engage in "one-way debate". No doubt you're less than pleased that I'm not going along with it.

It's interesting that when you compare the way this thread was initiated to the "Non-Religious Sanctuary", this is the one that decided to go into a long diatribe implying why non-religious people are immoral. If you wanted a sanctuary away from these people, why the attempt to incite them?


grin well put Riley Man

 

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_Darth_Brooks_ 
Registered: Sep '00
23037_Jedi Outcast
Date Posted: 5/15/02 9:15am Subject: RE: Religious Sanctuary Thread
Actually, your question has already been answered.


It's quite simple.

To discuss a subject from the perspective of likeminded people. Not atheists debating religious, but religious discussing amongst themselves a particular topic.

Is it unreasonable to discuss a subject from such a stance? I don't think so. I'm not proselytizing atheists, or even engaging in apologetics. Were that the case, then I'd assert myself into a thread that claims to be a sanctuary for the non-believing. I respect their apparent desire for their own space.



But, regardless of the way in which the other thread was initiated, there is the matter of how it turned out. And regardless of that, is the separate intent behind initiating this thread.


The fact is that from my religious tradition, atheism is a moral wrong. Naturally, the atheist doesn't possess the same viewpoint. What sense in my trying to convince the atheist that his/her 'religion/world view'(samething actually)is wrong? That's not what I said this thread was about.

The intention here is to point/counterpoint thoughts on atheism, from an our perspective, not 'us against them'. An exploration from the vantage of those who don't subscribe to atheism.


AGAIN, THIS ISN'T INTENDED TO BE SOLELY ABOUT ATHEISM, that's just a discussion starter.

I'd like to hear from other believer on other subjects, including why they believe in their brand of faith, or what lead them to their respective faiths.







 

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