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Topic:
Minorities will get the short end of the stick, as long as politicians exist
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StarFire
Registered:
Oct '01
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Date Posted:
7/12/02 12:55pm
Subject:
RE: Minorities will get the short end of the stick, as long as politicians exist
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If I may ask, Darth_SnowDog, why do you disagree?
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Darth_SnowDog
Registered:
Sep '01
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Date Posted:
7/12/02 12:55pm
Subject:
RE: Minorities will get the short end of the stick, as long as politicians exist
- Date Edited:
7/12/02 1:04pm (1 edits total)
Edited By:
Darth_SnowDog
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In addition, AJA and StarFire, you haven't answered my question... why would we want a more limited interpretation of religious freedoms in the first place?
Why should the state be a billboard for any type of religion at all? Why does religion need a marketing machine, anyway? I have never understood proselytization, and I never will. Having had an education in marketing myself, I can't understand the appeal of religious advertisement to those who employ it.... it's like openly admitting that your faith does not have enough substance to be discovered, appreciated and accepted solely on the basis of its own merits.
Star_Fire: I disagree with the vouchers on the basis of the fact that everyone, even those without children, benefits from the social gains of public education. A more educated workforce has a positive and lasting impact on our economy, our society, our welfare, our GDP/GNP, our crime rate, and many other factors... a more educated workforce increases the average standard of living... which affects the entire society.
To pay out these vouchers as a sort of "refund" to those who assume that the portion of their taxes that contribute to public schools is exactly proportional to only the economic benefit their child and family receives is a false assumption.
I believe that the cost of public education should be borne by all of our society, because society as a whole benefits from it.
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StarFire
Registered:
Oct '01
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Date Posted:
7/12/02 1:04pm
Subject:
RE: Minorities will get the short end of the stick, as long as politicians exist
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I'm sorry, but I don't quite understand your question. How is the state a billboard for religion?
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AJA
Registered:
Oct '98
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Date Posted:
7/12/02 1:05pm
Subject:
RE: Minorities will get the short end of the stick, as long as politicians exist
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In addition, AJA and StarFire, you haven't answered my question... why would we want a more limited interpretation of religious freedoms in the first place?
Because a court is trying to use the interpretation you're endorsing to strike down a law that the American people passed through their elected representatives, and which 90% of the people currently support?
Why should the state be a billboard for any type of religion at all? Why does religion need a marketing machine, anyway? I have never understood proselytization, and I never will. Having had an education in marketing myself, I can't understand the appeal of religious advertisement to those who employ it.... it's like openly admitting that your faith does not have enough substance to be discovered, appreciated and accepted solely on the basis of its own merits.
Of course you realize that those who engage in proselytizing don't see it that way...and you could just as easily say that those who are against proselytizing are lacking in faith of their views, and are afraid if people are exposed to something else, they might change their beliefs.
Nevertheless, I'm a Christian, and I'm not a fan of aggressive evangelism. I don't see anything wrong with promoting your religion, but I also don't think you should go beyond a certain point with it.
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Darth_SnowDog
Registered:
Sep '01
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Date Posted:
7/12/02 1:05pm
Subject:
RE: Minorities will get the short end of the stick, as long as politicians exist
- Date Edited:
7/12/02 1:06pm (1 edits total)
Edited By:
Darth_SnowDog
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"In God We Trust"... is a billboard for monotheism. It advertises the idea that we all believe in God... which is false. It is printed on our currency... so in what way is it not advertising monotheism at the expense of the public?
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StarFire
Registered:
Oct '01
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Date Posted:
7/12/02 1:12pm
Subject:
RE: Minorities will get the short end of the stick, as long as politicians exist
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There are two ways to view it:
1. As you've said, an advancement of monotheism. However, this does not violate the First Amendment (at least not the interpretation widely held when it was created).
2. Or as a reminder, if you will, of American heritage. "In God We Trust" is certainly a poignant reflection if the Revolutionary War times.
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AJA
Registered:
Oct '98
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Date Posted:
7/12/02 1:15pm
Subject:
RE: Minorities will get the short end of the stick, as long as politicians exist
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Like the pledge, it is a simple statement of the views of the overwhelming majority of the American people. That's not exactly the same thing as an "advertisement".
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Darth_SnowDog
Registered:
Sep '01
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Date Posted:
7/12/02 1:24pm
Subject:
RE: Minorities will get the short end of the stick, as long as politicians exist
- Date Edited:
7/12/02 1:31pm (2 edits total)
Edited By:
Darth_SnowDog
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Because a court is trying to use the interpretation you're endorsing to strike down a law that the American people passed through their elected representatives, and which 90% of the people currently support?
The question I was asking was somewhat of a fundamental, not incidental, one... why should we limit religious freedom? Is there a benefit to limiting religious freedom? Who benefits? Who does not? Do you see where this is leading?
Essentially what you're saying to me is "I don't give a damn about your beliefs, rights and freedoms... all I care about is me and my beliefs, rights and freedoms. Since I think everyone agrees with me, I must be right. Since not everyone agrees with you, you're wrong... and why should I care?"
Ever hear of a phenomenon called "groupthink"?
A recent poll was done by CNN asking Americans their opinion on the pledge, the majority said they like it the way it is.
However, in the same poll, when asked if they believe religion and government should be kept separate, the majority agreed it should be.
As exemplified in Miranda v. State of Arizona, people are entitled to their rights... even when they do not understand them.
The fact is, I've grown so accustomed to religious banter in America, that "God" means nothing to me.
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AJA
Registered:
Oct '98
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Date Posted:
7/12/02 1:31pm
Subject:
RE: Minorities will get the short end of the stick, as long as politicians exist
- Date Edited:
7/12/02 1:34pm (1 edits total)
Edited By:
AJA
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I thought we were arguing establishment, not free exercise. The Bill of Rights are limits on what the government can and cannot do. You believe the Pledge of Allegience is a violation of religious freedom. Most people do not.
As for the rest of your post, I'm only saying what I already expressed with regard to majority rule vs. minority rule.
I could not have opposed the Clinton Administration any more than I did. Nevertheless, I understood that aside from going to the polls and voting, there was nothing I could do about it. If that's what the people wanted, that's what they got, and that's the way our system works.
Luckily (in my view), we've come to our senses, and we're slowly beginning to reclaim some of what was lost during the 1990s.
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Darth_SnowDog
Registered:
Sep '01
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Date Posted:
7/12/02 1:39pm
Subject:
RE: Minorities will get the short end of the stick, as long as politicians exist
- Date Edited:
7/12/02 1:43pm (2 edits total)
Edited By:
Darth_SnowDog
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You believe the Pledge of Allegience is a violation of religious freedom. Most people do not.
No I do not believe that. I believe the Act that changed the Pledge was unconstitutional to begin with. That's it. If Eisenhower never enacted it, how many people in America would have inserted "under God" in there of their own imagination and will? That would be free exercise of religious freedom... yet they are only reciting it that way because of a law the state established... a law which is unconstitutional, based on the broadest applied definition possible of religious freedom (should freedoms not be broad, and restrictions narrow? Is a freedom that constricts not a contradiction in terms?). If the definition of the First Amendment were meant to be narrow, it would have been written so. The language of the entire Constitution is consistent with the founders' intentions to have broad and malleable definitions of freedom.
The school voucher issue precisely does not narrow the definition of the First Amendment because, according to their own decision, the issue does not even come into contact with the First Amendment at all, regardless of the definition.
My curiosity is now aroused even further... What does it say when believers in god, for the most part, have little or nothing to do with god unless they are told to do so by some other authority?
Luckily (in my view), we've come to our senses, and we're slowly beginning to reclaim some of what was lost during the 1990s.
You mean like our economy?
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AJA
Registered:
Oct '98
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Date Posted:
7/12/02 4:18pm
Subject:
RE: Minorities will get the short end of the stick, as long as politicians exist
- Date Edited:
7/12/02 4:19pm (1 edits total)
Edited By:
AJA
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You mean like our economy?
That's one part of it. What we're seeing now is the continued unraveling of the dishonesty and unreserved greed that drove the bubble. Like everything else in the 90s, the economy was a lie. Hopefully, once the garbage is cleaned out, it will return to strength on the basis of sound economics, not falsely inflated stock prices.
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Darth_SnowDog
Registered:
Sep '01
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Date Posted:
7/12/02 8:36pm
Subject:
RE: Minorities will get the short end of the stick, as long as politicians exist
- Date Edited:
7/12/02 9:13pm (1 edits total)
Edited By:
Darth_SnowDog
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"sound economics"... you mean like Enron funding Dubya's election campaign, and then vanishing into thin air underneath the pile of this telecom industry investigation?
Sound economics... like the deficit spending of the 1980s... or trading arms for hostages... or engaging in war to protect the wellspring of a family dynasty...
Commercial greed, contrary to popular opinion, didn't just materialize suddenly in the 1990s during the Clinton Administration... it's been there since the beginning of the agricultural revolution 6000 years ago.
Like the pledge, it is a simple statement of the views of the overwhelming majority of the American people. That's not exactly the same thing as an "advertisement".
Then what is it doing, if not advertising God? Isn't it paid for with our tax dollars? Isn't it being shown to an audience, espousing the concept of God? What else would you call it? Is it a question? Is it a puzzle? Is it a riddle? Is it a monkey on a bicycle? What is it doing if not advertising the idea of trust in "God", which not all Americans have...
There again, you make reference to the "overwhelming majority"... as if to only solidify my earlier view that you, quite frankly, do not appear to give a damn about anyone's rights but yours... and you seem to think that majority rule means only the majority benefits from the rights they establish into law. This is patently false... instead of reading letters from Jefferson, how about reading the US Constitution?
I'm convinced now that the basic disengagement between us here is that I believe if there are rights afforded to the people, they belong to all the people, regardless of where they come from... but you believe that the only person whose rights matter is you, or at the very least, conveniently whatever demographic majority to which you belong.
You do not understand, and can not understand, what it means to be a minority and have your rights violated... because neither are you a minority, nor have you ever in my presence demonstrated any interest in trying to understand our point of view.
You still have not given me one good fundamental reason why we should further limit freedoms that have been established in the Constitution. You gave me an incidental example, but not a fundamental explanation of what the benefit of strangling the given definition of a deliberately ambiguously written charter of freedom is.
You have not demonstrated to me that the rights afforded to the majority, which you feel should be denied to the minority, are also being equally denied to the majority. This would suggest that you endorse preferential distribution of rights.
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I am boycotting theforce.net
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policy concerning fanfic romance.
Others who believe this is bigotry should
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Gonzonaut
Registered:
Apr '00
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Date Posted:
7/12/02 11:08pm
Subject:
RE: Minorities will get the short end of the stick, as long as politicians exist
- Date Edited:
7/12/02 11:08pm (1 edits total)
Edited By:
Gonzonaut
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People will get the short end of the stick as long as politicians exist.
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AJA
Registered:
Oct '98
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Date Posted:
7/12/02 11:49pm
Subject:
RE: Minorities will get the short end of the stick, as long as politicians exist
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There again, you make reference to the "overwhelming majority"... as if to only solidify my earlier view that you, quite frankly, do not appear to give a damn about anyone's rights but yours... and you seem to think that majority rule means only the majority benefits from the rights they establish into law.
You have not demonstrated to me that the rights afforded to the majority, which you feel should be denied to the minority, are also being equally denied to the majority. This would suggest that you endorse preferential distribution of rights.
I think the problem is not a disagreement about whether rights should be equally applied to all people- the 14th Amendment is clear on that, and I don't by any means take issue with it. The problem would be better stated as a disagreement about which rights are actually found in the Constitution.
To put a finer point on it, what we're disagreeing about (obviously) is whether or not there is an infringement of Constitutional rights in the non-mandatory Pledge of Allegience. You think there is, I think there isn't. If we agreed on what was Constitutional here, there would be no disagreement between us as to whether or not it applied to everyone.
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RiggsWolfe
Registered:
Mar '02
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Date Posted:
7/13/02 1:03am
Subject:
RE: Minorities will get the short end of the stick, as long as politicians exist
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Yes, minorities will get the short end of the stick as long as politicians exist.
As long as you define minorities as white, Christian, males.
After all, we don't get affirmitave action.
Our beliefs are a threat, hence all reference to God must be removed from everything
We don't get special scholarships
or schools set aside just for us
I could go on if anyone would like....
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