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Topic:
Who will the next US President be?
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Imrahil
Registered:
Oct '00
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Date Posted:
7/22/02 10:53am
Subject:
RE: Who will the next US President be?
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I hope this is clear. Ultimately, my vote as a Californian counts less than someone in Wyoming, or West Virginia.
And that is wrong, everyonr's vote should be equal. It shouldn't matter what state you are from, it's your vote as an individual. My vote for a Democrat in Idaho is meaningless, just the same as a vote for a Republican in Hawaii. That should change.
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TreeCave
Registered:
Jul '01
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Date Posted:
7/22/02 12:11pm
Subject:
RE: Who will the next US President be?
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Yep, that's another good argument for getting rid of it.... if your state goes 51% for one guy, it's as if your vote for the other just falls off the roadmap.
I was taught about the Electoral College in high school. My teacher showed us a documentary on it where a statistician argued that it really didn't matter because on those rare occasions when the popular vote is not the same as the Electoral College result (like 2000 - Gore won popular, Bush technically got Electoral), the margin of difference could not possibly be more than 300,000 votes, and that was extrapolating for lots more population growth than we've had. Even then, I thought, "300,000 votes don't matter?"
But in reality, Gore's margin over Bush was about 540,000 according to all the credible sources I've found (not counting Tom Daschle's claim of 700,000, as he's not credible, LOL). So the electoral college can misrepresent the voters' wishes by quite a margin.
I've heard a lot of arguments why the Electoral college is good, but nothing has convinced me. It was the best they could do in an era where they couldn't possibly count all the votes as efficiently as they can with technology now, and we're stuck with it due to the amendment process requiring votes from the small states who get more say than big states.
As for small states getting more say than others: who contributes more to the well-being of the US? California, New York and Texas? Or Wyoming, West Virginia and Hawaii? There is simply no way you can argue the voters in smaller states deserve their votes to count more. And I wouldn't argue the big states should have more say just because they contribute - but they sure as heck shouldn't be punished for it.
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StarFire
Registered:
Oct '01
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Date Posted:
7/22/02 12:26pm
Subject:
RE: Who will the next US President be?
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Basically, the Electoral College was put in place to guarantee that each State in the Union would have an appreciable voice. Arguably, individual states don't need as much independance today as they wanted then.
But the argument for getting rid of the Electoral College is just as valid an argument for getting rid of the Senate. Rhode Island gets two Senators, the same amount as California or Texas. So each individual person in Rhode Island technically holds more sway over the United States Congress than a person from Texas does.
Why aren't people complaining about that?
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WiseOldProphet
Registered:
Jul '02
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Date Posted:
7/22/02 1:01pm
Subject:
RE: Who will the next US President be?
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He that would govern others, first should be the master of himself.
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TreeCave
Registered:
Jul '01
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Date Posted:
7/22/02 1:35pm
Subject:
RE: Who will the next US President be?
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Star Fire, good point. I personally have always wondered if we really need both a Senate and a House anymore. However, any change would still have to keep a two-layer process for passing bills, and other procedures Congress is used to. I don't really see how we could change it without massively restructuring the federal govt.
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Maveric
Registered:
Oct '99
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Date Posted:
7/22/02 1:43pm
Subject:
RE: Who will the next US President be?
- Date Edited:
7/22/02 1:45pm (1 edits total)
Edited By:
Maveric
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Treecave
Think how screwed up our system of government is now, and then imagine getting rid of one of the branches of the legislature. The result? A governmental system twice as screwed up (at least) as what we have now. The framers knew what they were doing when they crafted the legislature.
The Senate is the cooling dish for the cup that is the House of Representatives. Issues and bills overflow from the impetuous House, only to be tempered by the cooler heads of the Senate."
I forget who first coined this phrase but I believe it is aptly put.
Having a bicameral legislature makes it much more difficult for legislation to pass, and at least for me, that is a good thing.
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Imrahil
Registered:
Oct '00
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Date Posted:
7/22/02 2:16pm
Subject:
RE: Who will the next US President be?
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Well said Maverick.
I beleive that a bicameral legislature is important. It allows twice as much discussion and the more discussion, the better. As for the claim that a person from Rhode Island has more voice in Congress then a person from Texas, I disagree. They both have three persons representing them, do they not?
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StarFire
Registered:
Oct '01
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Date Posted:
7/22/02 2:27pm
Subject:
RE: Who will the next US President be?
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They each have two Senators.
Think of it this way:
Rhode Island has 4 citizens; Texas has 20 citizens (I'm not trying to be exactly proportional).
In each election for Senator, the Texan's vote only counts for 1/20 of the total. The Rhode Island citizen on the other hand holds an entire quarter (1/4) of the total vote in his hand, so he has more voting "oomph" than the Texan (i.e., he has more direct control over the election of the Senator, and thus more direct control over the Senate).
Just so you know, I'm only drawing parallels between the Senate and the Electoral College here. I don't support getting rid of either until I see considerable evidence that it would be beneficial.
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"Nobody stops Venezuela." - President Hugo Chavez
"Experience must be our only guide. Reason may mislead us." - John Dickinson
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TreeCave
Registered:
Jul '01
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Date Posted:
7/22/02 2:49pm
Subject:
RE: Who will the next US President be?
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A governmental system twice as screwed up (at least) as what we have now.
That's why I said it would require massive restructuring of the govt - it would not greatly resemble our current set up at all, which is why it's not practical. It would be simpler to abolish Congress completely, take "representatives" out of the mix entirely, and let people vote for bills on the internet. 
My point was, the abolishment of the Electoral College does NOT require massive restructuring. I think it would actually make things easier.
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AJA
Registered:
Oct '98
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Date Posted:
7/22/02 4:16pm
Subject:
RE: Who will the next US President be?
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Out of the seven Presidents we've had in the last 40 years, three have been from Texas, and two from California. 5 out of 7 is a pretty good record for the two largest states, so I don't think they should complain too much.
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TreeCave
Registered:
Jul '01
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Date Posted:
7/22/02 4:20pm
Subject:
RE: Who will the next US President be?
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I'd say that's a factor of campaign contributions - another practice which needs abolished. CA has enough money and resources to stick Pauly Shore in the White House if it decides to. That's not a comforting thought.
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AJA
Registered:
Oct '98
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Date Posted:
7/22/02 4:25pm
Subject:
RE: Who will the next US President be?
- Date Edited:
7/22/02 4:32pm (1 edits total)
Edited By:
AJA
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It's a result of electoral math. If the candidate can carry California or Texas, there's a good chance they can win the election. The Vice Presidential choice is usually made on the same basis.
A conservative Republican from California is almost unbeatable. The problem is finding one.
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TreeCave
Registered:
Jul '01
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Date Posted:
7/22/02 4:30pm
Subject:
RE: Who will the next US President be?
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Yeah, but what would be wrong with just a straight popular vote? Why does it need to be a chess game?
I mean, if the country were being founded today, don't you think it would just be a straight popular vote?
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AJA
Registered:
Oct '98
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Date Posted:
7/22/02 4:41pm
Subject:
RE: Who will the next US President be?
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The electoral college is still based on the population, which is why a scenario like the one that happened last time is improbable. California has 54 electoral votes, while smaller states only have two or three. It seems like a good system to me. It expresses the will of the overall population, while still ensuring that each state has a say in the process.
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BEWARE THE INGENIOUS BRAIN ROBOTRONS THAT POSSESS THE POWER TO REPROGRAM HUMANS INTO SINISTER PROGS. http://etext.lib.virginia.edu/jefferson/quotations/
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Darth Fierce
Registered:
Feb '00
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Date Posted:
7/22/02 5:43pm
Subject:
RE: Who will the next US President be?
- Date Edited:
7/22/02 5:45pm (1 edits total)
Edited By:
Darth Fierce
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Sorry if I got this thread off-topic. I thought Imrahil might have had a better argument than that.  
And one critical factor is always overlooked: It's by no means a foregone conclusion that Gore still would have won the popular vote if both candidates and the voting public knew the results would be decided on the popular vote.
It's like the Bears losing 15 - 14 by giving up 5 field goals, then saying they would have won if field goals didn't count as much.
Texans alone could have swamped the voting booths for Bush, rather than staying home knowing Texas's set number of electoral votes were surely going to Bush.
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