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Author	Topic: Human Rights - their status and importance today
Ender_Sai Title: Manager Emeritus Registered: Feb '01	Date Posted: 10/3/02 6:40pm Subject: Human Rights - their status and importance today - Date Edited: 10/3/02 6:40pm (1 edits total) Edited By: Ender_Sai
	Hey all, finally decided I'd start my own baby up! Here's my question for y'all: "Is our current notion of human rights a purely Western construct? Please feel free to debate cultural relativst versus unversalist theories. Cultural Relatvism assumes that each culture has their own beliefs about the value of life. Universalist say that there are some basic rights that transcend all cultures, such as respect for life (hence punishment of murder everywhere). And do we, as Western nations, have the right to criticise China (for example) and their human rights record when our own countries have clear violations of human rights happening this very day? (example US - Detainees in Guantanamo Bay) You should also have a look at: United Nations High Commissioner for Human Rights' website Universal Declarations of Human Rights I am a cultural relativist who believes these values as described in the Decl. of HR, should be universally enforced, starting with Western Nations first. Why? Violations are smaller in scale, more liberal thus more open to the idea of positive change, Western nations most likely to support human rights causes etc etc. Enjoy! E_S -----signature----- In this truth he knew himself to be. From sinking sands he stepped into light's embrace.
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JediTre11 Registered: Mar '01	Date Posted: 10/3/02 7:27pm Subject: RE: Human Rights - their status and importance today
	I agree that human rights is a western construct in that most human rights movments have their roots in the Enlightenment. But I don't think saying "purely" is accurate. Womens rights I believe came first to Russia during the Russian Revolution. -----signature----- There follows an untranslatable play on words with the use of local idiomatic expressions. History B.A. If no God, there must be at least a pattern-making demiurge. - Anthony Burgess
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Coolguy4522 Registered: Dec '00	Date Posted: 10/3/02 7:40pm Subject: RE: Human Rights - their status and importance today
	I think we should start with the biggest offenders first, the ones who have no intention of being Humane. Why start off with the countries that are willing to be humane? If you could prove that America was being vastly inhumane, and not just have a bunch of anti-Americans say so, I know the US people would take care of the problem themselves. -----signature----- http://boards.theforce.net/message.asp?topic=9777663&replies=7 -My farewell thread The Senate Floor: A Higher form of flaming! (and fun) Green Apples!
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Lord_Darth_Bob Registered: Jun '01	Date Posted: 10/3/02 7:56pm Subject: RE: Human Rights - their status and importance today
	The Guantanamo Bay situation is more a situation of a liberal-aggrivating lack of legal niceities. When it comes to American violations of Human Rights, I'd go to the couple of massacres in Vietnam. -----signature----- Things that Lucas Licensing does not consider official parts of the continuous Star Wars history show an Infinities logo or are contained in Star Wars Tales. Everything else is considered canon. Fleet Junkie - Saxtonian Bulldog Uncivilized Debater
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Fire_Ice_Death Registered: Feb '01	Date Posted: 10/3/02 7:58pm Subject: RE: Human Rights - their status and importance today
	But those people were taken care of in Vietnam. It was a crazy time for everyone during that era. -----signature----- Humor is my shield. Sarcasm my sword. The Changing Face of America: What can brown do for you? Gamertag: FIDo Almighty Remember: Frank Miller hates you.
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Ender_Sai Title: Manager Emeritus Registered: Feb '01	Date Posted: 10/3/02 8:44pm Subject: RE: Human Rights - their status and importance today
	This is true; the US does tend to punish it's own when they stray - which is one thing I'd concede in their favour when considering the state of the ICC situation. However, you totally missed my point, CoolGuy. Let's assume this; we scale nations on a 1-10 for human rights standards; 10 being perfect, 1 being inhumane. I'd place the US at a 7, Australia 7.5 and the PRC at a 4. My point is this, guys, and remember - the US forbade UN inspectors into the Cuban base and we forbade the UN from looking at our detention centers - until we are at an "8" or higher, that is, until our human rights standards are high enough be beyond reproach (that is, violations are outside the norm and effectively dealth with by the UNHCHR or similar organs) can we afford to openly criticise nations like the PRC for their status on human rights? From a cultural relativist POV, I'd say Yes we can afford to attempt to influence cultural means to accept these basic rights, but from a universalist I'd say "Is that not hypocrisy"? Thoughts? E_S -----signature----- In this truth he knew himself to be. From sinking sands he stepped into light's embrace.
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Coolguy4522 Registered: Dec '00	Date Posted: 10/3/02 8:52pm Subject: RE: Human Rights - their status and importance today
	What I am saying is that we should go after the 4's first. Althought I would rate the PRC at about a 2, but I guess it depends on how you take "aborting" babies minutes before that are about to be born. -----signature----- http://boards.theforce.net/message.asp?topic=9777663&replies=7 -My farewell thread The Senate Floor: A Higher form of flaming! (and fun) Green Apples!
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rsterling78 Registered: May '02	Date Posted: 10/3/02 8:56pm Subject: RE: Human Rights - their status and importance today
	It's interesting to note that the Guantanamo detainees, who are given sanitary conditions in which to reside, copies of the Koran, a sign showing the direction toward Mecca so they will know which way to face when they pray, permission to grow their hair and beards long, and American taxpayer funded medical treatment, despite continuing, even in captivity, to declare their desire to murder innocent Americans, are the subject of an alleged human rights violation. What about the hundreds of millions of Muslim women who live under a system of gender apartheid? An Iranian woman is facing charges for kissing a man on the forehead in public. (BBC News Report) What about forced genital mutilation of women practiced primarily (but not exclusively) by Muslim societies? What about Muslim women who are divorced by their husbands and then are either relegated to a life of cheap manual labor with no hope of advance or forced to become prostitutes to acquire money for food? What about the enslavement of Christians by Muslims in the Sudan? Why is it so popular for Westerners to obsess over trivial or imaginary "violations" of "rights" in the Western world while genuine crimes against human dignity are practiced daily and unapologetically in non-Western countries?
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Uruk-hai Registered: Oct '00	Date Posted: 10/3/02 9:10pm Subject: RE: Human Rights - their status and importance today
	Those human rights abuses you named are all your interpretation of human rights abuse. Obviously the countries or communities involved don't agree with you. Do you have a right to force other to live by your standards? -----signature----- Math is hard! Tho are etheth! Remember Bali 12th October 2002.
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Fire_Ice_Death Registered: Feb '01	Date Posted: 10/3/02 9:15pm Subject: RE: Human Rights - their status and importance today
	Do you have a right to force other to live by your standards? Oh, you don't consider those human rights abuses huh? That's funny, I thought human rights abuses were you know...easy to spot. Apparently they're not. -----signature----- Humor is my shield. Sarcasm my sword. The Changing Face of America: What can brown do for you? Gamertag: FIDo Almighty Remember: Frank Miller hates you.
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Uruk-hai Registered: Oct '00	Date Posted: 10/3/02 9:18pm Subject: RE: Human Rights - their status and importance today
	Uhhhh... just playing devil's advocate and asking the question. -----signature----- Math is hard! Tho are etheth! Remember Bali 12th October 2002.
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Fire_Ice_Death Registered: Feb '01	Date Posted: 10/3/02 9:19pm Subject: RE: Human Rights - their status and importance today
	Riiiight. I'm not a huge fan of theocracies. Which is mostly what muslim nations are. -----signature----- Humor is my shield. Sarcasm my sword. The Changing Face of America: What can brown do for you? Gamertag: FIDo Almighty Remember: Frank Miller hates you.
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Uruk-hai Registered: Oct '00	Date Posted: 10/3/02 9:22pm Subject: RE: Human Rights - their status and importance today
	So, you think Western Civilisation should force it's way of life onto everyone else? -----signature----- Math is hard! Tho are etheth! Remember Bali 12th October 2002.
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Na Wibo Registered: Apr '00	Date Posted: 10/3/02 9:24pm Subject: RE: Human Rights - their status and importance today
	I think it's very important on this issue to distinguish between the actions of institutions of power, ie governments (usually), and the general populace. I do not think it is hypocritical for me as an American citizen, not a member of any government organization, to hold all governments to the same standard. I do think it is hypocritical to focus on the behavior of other countries and turn a blind eye to that of one's own. I have some amount of power to affect the behavior of my government. Moreover, I would like the government that represents me to be credible when it points out the violations of others. I believe that the Universal Declaration is, well, universal, not relative. -----signature----- Power, like a desolating pestilence, Pollutes whate'er it touches, and obedience, Bane of all genius, virtue, freedom, truth, Makes slaves of men, and, of the human frame, A mechanised automaton. -- Shelley
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Saint_of_Killers Registered: Feb '01	Date Posted: 10/3/02 9:34pm Subject: RE: Human Rights - their status and importance today - Date Edited: 10/3/02 9:41pm (2 edits total) Edited By: Saint_of_Killers
	"Althought I would rate the PRC at about a 2, but I guess it depends on how you take "aborting" babies minutes before that are about to be born." As I understand it, China does not force women to abort. They just tax the hell out of any family with more than one child. As for the question of atrocities being alright if the communities are commiting them rather than the government: no. Those women aren't consenting to having their clitorises cut off, they're labia scraped out, and their vaginas sown up. I don't give a damn if that's part of their culture, it's wrong. Some things are just wrong, no matter who's doing it or where they're from. -----signature----- We enter into life naked and howling, covered with blood. The fun doesn't have to end there. Who to himself is law, no law does need, offends no law and is a king indeed Abraham failed the test. TAKE A BOW MISTER BUNNY!!!
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farraday Registered: Jan '00	Date Posted: 10/3/02 9:42pm Subject: RE: Human Rights - their status and importance today
	According to the Population Research Institute... China still includes forced and coercize abortions in it's population policy. Here They aren't exactly unbiased but the United Nations Population Fund has shown itself mroe willing to believe Chinese reports then investigate -----signature----- Virtvs probata florescit Omnes aequo animo parent ubi digni imperant Exceptio probat regulam de rebus non exceptis
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