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Topic:
Kurosawa's influence on SW
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BaronLandoCalrissian
Registered:
Jun '06
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Date Posted:
1/17 2:55pm
Subject:
RE: Kurosawa's influence on SW
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I believe Lucas told somebody (Robert Watts?) early on that Once Upon a Time in the West was one of the movies he wanted to emulate going into production in Tunisia.
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Darth-Stryphe
Title: Saga Manager
Registered:
Apr '01
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Date Posted:
1/17 5:05pm
Subject:
RE: Kurosawa's influence on SW
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Well, to be honest, I was never a fan of any western director. Yes, Ford did lots of classic stuff, and I appreciate that, but other than that I never appreciated anyone as a definitive or superior director of the genre, and really took each work on its own merit. I've seen several westerns from the time period and sub-genre of The Man with No Man, and didn't much care for them, thus my lack of enthusasm for seeing these particular films, but the more I hear, the more I would like to see them.
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MatthewZ
Registered:
Sep '03
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Date Posted:
1/18 4:49am
Subject:
RE: Kurosawa's influence on SW
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Its Man with No NAME, right?
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What I posted was true......from a certain point of view.
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the_immolated_one
Registered:
Sep '06
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Date Posted:
1/18 11:01am
Subject:
RE: Kurosawa's influence on SW
- Date Edited:
1/18 11:29am (2 edits total)
Edited By:
the_immolated_one
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Darth-Stryphe posted:
but the more I hear, the more I would like to see them.
Well if I was you I would just watch "The Good, The Bad and The Ugly" and if you don't like it then don't bother watching "Fistful of Dollars" and "For A Few Dollars More". "TGTBATU" is the best of the 3. "Fistful of Dollars" had a very tight budget and it really is a shameless knock off of "Yojimbo" but don't get me wrong I like "Fistful of Dollars". However, it really doesn't get any better than "TGTBATU" as for as a movie that thoroughly entertains, has wonderful deep focus shots accompanied with a great musical score, and it even has a thing or three to say about the human experience. Like I kinda mentioned earlier, Clint Eastwood may have become the mega movie star from that movie but it was Eli Wallach who stole the show.
Oh and this is just my opinion but if you think Al Pacino is great as Tony Montana in "Scarface", like so many people do, then check out Rod Steiger's character named Juan Miranda in Sergio Leone's "Once Upon A Time...The Revolution". Maybe it's just a coincidence or maybe Rod Steiger got it from someone else but it appears Al Pacino borrowed heavily from Rod Steiger's Juan Miranda. I like to think Rod Steiger stole it from Eli Wallach's Tuco character from "TGTBATU" and just took the Tuco character to the next level. Actually originally Eli Wallach was supposed to play Juan Miranda but the studio forced Sergio to use Rod Steiger because Steiger had just won an Oscar or something.
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GreenLantern_Jedi
Registered:
May '07
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Date Posted:
1/19 3:34pm
Subject:
RE: Kurosawa's influence on SW
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Oh God, not again - every few years the "Lucas/Kurosawa" thread pops up again.
Hasn't this been covered to death...?
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Vortigern99
Title: Manager Emeritus
Registered:
Nov '00
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Date Posted:
1/19 4:21pm
Subject:
RE: Kurosawa's influence on SW
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Please post material that is productive to the discussion. If you can only question or criticise the very existence of a thread, there is no point in posting at all.
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"I knew from the beginning I was not doing science fiction.
I was doing a space opera, a fantasy film, a mythological piece,
a fairy tale."--George Lucas
My "Vader's Origins" thread:
http://boards.theforce.net/Classic_Trilogy/b10002/8708417/p1
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GreenLantern_Jedi
Registered:
May '07
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Date Posted:
1/21 1:06pm
Subject:
RE: Kurosawa's influence on SW
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I have a more interesting idea for a discussion:
Compare the creative relationship between Lucas & Spielberg to that of Kurosawa & Ishiro Honda.
At least it hasn't been done before.
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Vortigern99
Title: Manager Emeritus
Registered:
Nov '00
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Date Posted:
1/21 1:10pm
Subject:
RE: Kurosawa's influence on SW
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Well, you can either create a thread proposing that idea, or you can weave it into the current thread, since it seems to apply to the discussion at hand.
We eagerly await your refreshing perspective.
-----signature-----
"I knew from the beginning I was not doing science fiction.
I was doing a space opera, a fantasy film, a mythological piece,
a fairy tale."--George Lucas
My "Vader's Origins" thread:
http://boards.theforce.net/Classic_Trilogy/b10002/8708417/p1
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GreenLantern_Jedi
Registered:
May '07
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Date Posted:
1/21 2:34pm
Subject:
RE: Kurosawa's influence on SW
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Right - well, to throw my hat in the ring, there are very interesting parallels between Honda/Kurosawa & Lucas/Spielberg. Honda was 'trained' at Toho to direct 'women's interest' dramas (much as Spielberg was trained in television) while Kurosawa broke free of constraints early on (emerging from the war-time propaganda films unit) with his period/Kabuki based film "The Men Who Tread The Tiger's Tail"*. Honda's career path was altered permanently when he directed "Gojira" in the mid-1950's. Honda became the enthusiastic director of sci-fi spectacles (such as "The Mysterians") and the color Gojira family films ("King Kong Vs. Godzilla" - on and off - through "Terror Of Mechagodzilla"). This can be compared to Lucas's film career - starting with small films, but succeeding at the box office with crowd pleasing genre movies(I believe that Honda was Japan's most successful director until he retired early, in the 1970's) while his friend, Kurosawa, known for gangster movies & violent Samurai action epics, ascended to new heights starting with the film "Red Beard" (not to undermine the importance of "Ikiru" or "Roshomon" in K's career) - much as "The Color Purple" changed Spielberg's career drastically. But like Spielberg & Lucas, Kurosawa & Honda remained close friends (even neighbors at times). Much as Spielberg contributed to "Revenge of the Sith" & the friends teamed again on Indiana Jones IV, Honda was the most important figure in Kurosawa's resurgence as a director, going on to co-direct the big battles in "Kagemusha" and "Ran", and collaborating closely with Kurosawa on "Dreams" through "Rhapsody In August."
There seem to be some real Kurosawa experts on this Thread, so I'll let them take over.
* This film was based on several Japanese historical folk tales & related Kabuki & Noh plays. The plot-line is surprisingly similar to "Hidden Fortress, "A New Hope" & especially "The Phantom Menace".
http://kabuki21.com/kanjincho.php
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zombie
Registered:
Aug '99
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Date Posted:
1/21 2:41pm
Subject:
RE: Kurosawa's influence on SW
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GreenLantern_Jedi posted:
I have a more interesting idea for a discussion:
Compare the creative relationship between Lucas & Spielberg to that of Kurosawa & Ishiro Honda.
At least it hasn't been done before.
I guess there is something to be said in that Honda sometimes worked with Kurosawa on his films, but the Spielberg-Lucas relationship is most notable for the Indiana Jones series, which the Honda-Kurosawa relationship has no parallel. When you take away Indiana Jones the Spielberg-Lucas relationship is like many in the industry in that two filmmaking friends often influence and have a hand in each others films from time to time, though even this is pretty minimal in the case of Lucas and Spielberg.
A better relationship comparison might be Coppola>Lucas and Yamamoto>Kurosawa.
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I'll swallow your soul! --------------------------------- If you're gonna die, die with your boots on! -------------------------------- author of The Secret History of Star Wars http://secrethistoryofstarwars.com
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GreenLantern_Jedi
Registered:
May '07
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Date Posted:
1/21 4:45pm
Subject:
RE: Kurosawa's influence on SW
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Elaborate!
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zombie
Registered:
Aug '99
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Date Posted:
1/21 5:46pm
Subject:
RE: Kurosawa's influence on SW
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Yamamoto was Kurosawa's mentor. Kurosawa first got into the business after answering an advertisment looking for Assistant Director's for Toho. He learned the ropes from Kajiro Yamamoto, who took Kurosawa under his wing and showed him how to direct films. Kurosawa was young at the time and always credits Yamamoto as his mentor, and says that he basically learned all of his practical technique during his position as not only Yamamoto's key assistant, but as his close friend and creative collaborator. Yamamoto basically groomed him as a director and if I remember correctly Kurosawa made the transition to directing by directing the second-unit sequences of some of Yamamoto's films. Yamamoto was very well-established at Toho, and Kurosawa gained a lot of opportunities since Toho knew that he was one of Yamamoto's most trusted collaborators.
Lucas entered the business by basically winning a contest and being placed under Coppola, not all that different from Kurosawa. Like Kurosawa and Yamamoto, Lucas and Coppola struck a deep friendship and Lucas became Coppola's personal assistant; knowing that Lucas wanted to direct, Coppola began showing him the ropes and taught him (or tried, at least) how to write and handle performances; he was his mentor. While Kurosawa had a more traditional apprenticeship in a properly heirechal role as an A.D., Lucas' apprenticeship was not in any union as Kurosawa's was, so his is more untraditional and ecclectic, an appropriate contrast for the non-union independent world that Lucas came from. He observed and learned not through the union ladder system but by being first an observer (on Finian's Rainbow), then an assistant (on Finian's Rainbow), and finally a documentarian (on the Rain People). Lucas graduated to directing at the promotion of Coppola, who set-up a deal with Warner brothers and produced the film himself (THX1138 @ Zoetrope studios). Of course Lucas was not the veteran that Kurosawa was by the time he began directing (Kurosawa had been ADing for seven years and had served a fine apprenticeship), he was still brand new to the filmmaking system, so he continued to rely on Coppola as a pseduo-mentor figure basically until Star Wars. I think a lot of the collaboration of the New Hollywood people, and in particular Lucas' circle, was that they were simply so young that they didn't really know much about making movies; as they got older and more experienced they slowly drifted apart as a suppport group (though there are other factors at play there).
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I'll swallow your soul! --------------------------------- If you're gonna die, die with your boots on! -------------------------------- author of The Secret History of Star Wars http://secrethistoryofstarwars.com
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GreenLantern_Jedi
Registered:
May '07
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Date Posted:
1/21 7:55pm
Subject:
RE: Kurosawa's influence on SW
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I see possibilities in exploration of both parallels.
Let's keep this going.
>the Spielberg-Lucas relationship is most notable for the Indiana Jones series<
Hmm. That seems more like a matter of opinion to me. CS Lewis & Jrr Tolkien never got to collaborate on a project, yet their friendship was creatively important in many other ways. To me the Lucas/Copolla/Spielberg relationship isn't as notable for their collaborations as it is for their friendship - their support of each other,plus their pioneering the same concepts over the same period (an intellectual relationship).
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zombie
Registered:
Aug '99
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Date Posted:
1/21 8:03pm
Subject:
RE: Kurosawa's influence on SW
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But then one could find parallel in any filmmakers. All directors have fellow director friends that inevitably influence and support each other. The only thing that differentiates Lucas and Spielberg was that they co-created a film which ranks among their most popular and bridges the gap between their each respective cinematic stylisations.
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I'll swallow your soul! --------------------------------- If you're gonna die, die with your boots on! -------------------------------- author of The Secret History of Star Wars http://secrethistoryofstarwars.com
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GreenLantern_Jedi
Registered:
May '07
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Date Posted:
1/21 8:24pm
Subject:
RE: Kurosawa's influence on SW
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That's true, "from a certain point of view". Obviously, I see more direct parallels. But I'm just suggesting a new way of looking at Lucas through the lens of Kurosawa, so to speak. This thread subject always degenerates into an argument about whether or not Lucas "stole" certain shots or scenes from Kurosawa - first it gets nasty, then it gets locked. There must be other ways to explore the relationship between Lucas's work & Kurosawa's. Perhaps their approach to dramatizing history, their use of special effects, their pursuit of independent financing? Also, was Kurosawa influenced by Lucas? Kurosawa loved the Star Wars films, visited ILM & contracted ILM to supervise the special effects for "Dreams". Anything but this worn out shot-for-shot comparison that's as old as AOL...
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