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Topic:
The Ultimate Editions: Discussing Changes to Possible Upcoming Releases of the Saga
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woj101
Registered:
Feb '00
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Date Posted:
6/17 1:11pm
Subject:
RE: The Ultimate Editions: Discussing Changes to Possible Upcoming Releases of the Saga
- Date Edited:
6/17 1:27pm (3 edits total)
Edited By:
woj101
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Juan-King, I don't usually gush other posts, but that really made me laugh. I was reading it like you were serious, right up until your last comma. Then I cracked up. Good work. I love Juan-King.
Obi-Rob - I guess there's some validity in what you're saying about casual viewers misinterpreting it and then being confused and what not, but the idea that it should be cut out because of this is not one I'd go for. What about the millions of people who have watched the film in the last 28 years?
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obi-rob-kenobi4
Registered:
Apr '07
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Date Posted:
6/17 2:10pm
Subject:
RE: The Ultimate Editions: Discussing Changes to Possible Upcoming Releases of the Saga
- Date Edited:
6/17 2:14pm (3 edits total)
Edited By:
obi-rob-kenobi4
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woj101 - well thats the part i dont get,i cant see how people would get so mad at GL for taking out just one sec. of something so controversial just as long as he actually put a little effort into it to make it look good and convincing.For example if he were to switch the shot with them kissing to han with a jealous look on his face we would not know what they are doing so every one would be happy.Let me ask you this, wouldn't you say that the kiss is more of a justifiable thing to change than han shooting first?
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so this is how liberty dies with thunderous applause.....
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Vortigern99
Title: Manager Emeritus
Registered:
Nov '00
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Date Posted:
6/17 3:02pm
Subject:
RE: The Ultimate Editions: Discussing Changes to Possible Upcoming Releases of the Saga
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Obirob, I find it fascinating that this was not "controversial" in the slightest until your friends made a stink about it, you defended it to their continued dismay, then you posted about it in this thread and later admitted you exaggerated their reaction. If this doesn't warrant one of the all-time great American genre films being mutilated to serve the delicate sensibilities of a fan's vociferous yet notably absent friends, I don't know what does.
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"I knew from the beginning I was not doing science fiction.
I was doing a space opera, a fantasy film, a mythological piece,
a fairy tale."--George Lucas
My "Vader's Origins" thread:
http://boards.theforce.net/Classic_Trilogy/b10002/8708417/p1
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obi-rob-kenobi4
Registered:
Apr '07
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Date Posted:
6/17 4:30pm
Subject:
RE: The Ultimate Editions: Discussing Changes to Possible Upcoming Releases of the Saga
- Date Edited:
6/17 4:44pm (2 edits total)
Edited By:
obi-rob-kenobi4
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Vortigern99 posted:
Obirob, I find it fascinating that this was not "controversial" in the slightest until your friends made a stink about it, you defended it to their continued dismay, then you posted about it in this thread and later admitted you exaggerated their reaction. If this doesn't warrant one of the all-time great American genre films being mutilated to serve the delicate sensibilities of a fan's vociferous yet notably absent friends, I don't know what does.
You really think it would be mutilating it?Thats a very strong word.Maybe GL making han shoot first in ANH would constitute mutilation but taking out one quick sec. of blatant proof that luke and leia were not brother and sister until ROTJ would not count as mutilation.
Most people who defend it like the idea of there being a love triangle between luke,leia and han thats not resolved until the next movie but it is not like that anymore.It has not been like that since ROTJ and so there is no need for luke and leia to be kissing on the mouth.Removing it would not hurt the movie or the scene because it would be getting rid of a subplot that is not supposed to be there any more.There would be no need to make up excepted excuses for them anymore.Thats all im saying.
And its not like a few friends of mine made a stink about it,i swear every person that cares about what they are watching enough to point it out to me has gotten either confused,upset or just roles there eyes at it.Try watching it with a person that has never seen star wars before and i bet you any money you will have to clarify it for them.And thats my point there shouldn't have to be a 2nd person that "knows better" to be there to clarify it.
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so this is how liberty dies with thunderous applause.....
who am i,where am i going?
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Vortigern99
Title: Manager Emeritus
Registered:
Nov '00
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Date Posted:
6/17 6:04pm
Subject:
RE: The Ultimate Editions: Discussing Changes to Possible Upcoming Releases of the Saga
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They don't know they're brother and sister. They feel a connection but don't know what to make of it. How difficult is it to process those two sentences? It's an important element of the story. Luke loves her and she loves Luke; they don't know they're related; they act on those feelings the way anyone in their position would.
Your assertion, "i swear every person that cares about what they are watching enough to point it out to me has gotten either confused,upset or just roles there eyes at it" must be an exaggeration, or an instance of your preconceived notions coloring your observation of the events. For my own part I've seen the film with people who've never seen it, and I did not meet this reaction; in fact I've been discussing the movie with fans and non-fans alike for almost thirty years, and have never heard more than a passing mention of how "icky" it is that a brother and sister kissed on the lips. This reaction is the outgrowth of a social taboo, but it does not address the very real and well-attested facts of natural biological atrraction. So they thought each other might make a good mate, and endeavoured, briefly, to explore that possibility. I'm sorry to break it to you, but this would not be the first time in human history (or fiction) that such a thing has come to pass.
And obi-rob, may I suggest that in future posts you place a space between a period or comma and the beginning of the next sentence or phrase? It will make your writing easier to read.
-----signature-----
"I knew from the beginning I was not doing science fiction.
I was doing a space opera, a fantasy film, a mythological piece,
a fairy tale."--George Lucas
My "Vader's Origins" thread:
http://boards.theforce.net/Classic_Trilogy/b10002/8708417/p1
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zombie
Registered:
Aug '99
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Date Posted:
6/17 6:20pm
Subject:
RE: The Ultimate Editions: Discussing Changes to Possible Upcoming Releases of the Saga
- Date Edited:
6/20 6:49am (1 edits total)
Edited By:
General Kenobi
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The kiss has always been an awkward moment in the series. Yeah, they don't know they're related, but its definitely not an "innocent" kiss, its a hot one. Its quite obvious that had Lucas known they would end up being related that scene would never, ever, ever find its way into the film, nor even be considered; its glaringly out of place in retrospect and I can perfectly understand why viewers watching the films in order would have a "WT*?" moment, not because of the way the characters are acting but for the direction the filmmaker made things go--because such a scene is unnecessary and out of place. I don't know know if I'd go as far as removing it but I'll just say that I'd prefer it had never been shot in the first place. Its one of the "tells" leftover from the original pre-Saga version of the films, so I guess there's merit in saying its not something to be desired in a Saga version of the films.
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obi-rob-kenobi4
Registered:
Apr '07
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Date Posted:
6/17 9:38pm
Subject:
RE: The Ultimate Editions: Discussing Changes to Possible Upcoming Releases of the Saga
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To Vortigern99 - You really dont have to get so defensive, i was just giving my opinion and just for the record i swear to you im not exaggerating when i say that about peoples reactions.
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so this is how liberty dies with thunderous applause.....
who am i,where am i going?
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Vortigern99
Title: Manager Emeritus
Registered:
Nov '00
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Date Posted:
6/17 10:05pm
Subject:
RE: The Ultimate Editions: Discussing Changes to Possible Upcoming Releases of the Saga
- Date Edited:
6/17 10:05pm (1 edits total)
Edited By:
Vortigern99
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Fair enough, and for my part I apologize if I'm being obnoxious. I feel very strongly about this film; I think it's very probably the most perfect film ever produced, along with a handful of other movies in the history of cinema, and to suggest that some part of it needs excising just to allay the delicate prudery of a few people who are not even here to explain their opinions seems foolish to me.
I also disagree with zombie that the scene is "unnecessary and out of place", because if anything it reminds the viewer watching the Saga 1-6 that our protagonists do not know they're related, but they do feel a connection they don't know what to do with. In 'ANH' it's clear Luke has a thing for Leia, and to ignore that in this film -- prior to the sibling revelation any way you slice it -- would not be true to the characters or the material at hand.
-----signature-----
"I knew from the beginning I was not doing science fiction.
I was doing a space opera, a fantasy film, a mythological piece,
a fairy tale."--George Lucas
My "Vader's Origins" thread:
http://boards.theforce.net/Classic_Trilogy/b10002/8708417/p1
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DARTH_BELO
Registered:
Nov '03
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Date Posted:
6/17 10:15pm
Subject:
RE: The Ultimate Editions: Discussing Changes to Possible Upcoming Releases of the Saga
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..............So, how's about them Jawas?
 
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Juan-King
Registered:
Jul '04
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Date Posted:
6/18 9:59am
Subject:
RE: The Ultimate Editions: Discussing Changes to Possible Upcoming Releases of the Saga
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obi-rob-kenobi4 posted:
Most people who defend it like the idea of there being a love triangle between luke,leia and han thats not resolved until the next movie but it is not like that anymore.It has not been like that since ROTJ and so there is no need for luke and leia to be kissing on the mouth.Removing it would not hurt the movie or the scene because it would be getting rid of a subplot that is not supposed to be there any more.There would be no need to make up excepted excuses for them anymore.Thats all im saying.
And its not like a few friends of mine made a stink about it,i swear every person that cares about what they are watching enough to point it out to me has gotten either confused,upset or just roles there eyes at it.]Try watching it with a person that has never seen star wars before and i bet you any money you will have to clarify it for them.And thats my point there shouldn't have to be a 2nd person that "knows better" to be there to clarify it.
you want to get rid of the love-triangle sub-plot ?
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woj101
Registered:
Feb '00
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Date Posted:
6/18 2:29pm
Subject:
RE: The Ultimate Editions: Discussing Changes to Possible Upcoming Releases of the Saga
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For the reasons I mentioned above, there's no way this scene is out of place IMO.
I don't necessarily agree it is a 'hot' kiss, or that it is about Luke and Leia exploring their feelings for one another. For me, it's all about Leia and Han's relationship. The chemistry between them winds each other up good and chronic. The kiss is motivated by Leia's frustrated emotions towards Han. They're making digs at each other and so to get one up on him (and drive him nuts) she plants one staright on a pretty unknowing and passive Luke.
If anything, this scene destroys the myth of the love triangle. If she really had any sort of 'those' kind of feelings towards Luke I very much doubt she'd have acted as she did. The fact she could kiss him like that almost proves there is no chance for any sort of relationship with Luke in her mind. In no way is the kiss for Luke's benefit. Yes, he gets a short-term ego boost, but in the same way boys and girls who fancy each other as kids call each other names and hit one another because they're not ready to confront their feelings, neither is Leia.
You take the kiss out and it removes a good deal of the feistiness in the build up to their eventual coming together.
And as I said before, it's funny. I like to imagine that Chewie reacts as he does because somehow he's in on it all, and he's not just laughing at Han, but all of them.
It's become an in-joke almost. But the nature of in-jokes is that the people in the know become extra fond of them precisely because it it's only for 'people in the know'. So if you were to take such an in-joke out, I personally think there would be an outcry. Although several changes were made for the SEs, theonly change (that I can think of off the top of my head) that actually alters the plot is the Han-Greedo confrontation, and look how that went down. If GL actually changes the way a scene plays out there's trouble.
Also, I can't see how many people would get confused by it, even if they'd seen ROTS but not ROTJ: Twins are born. Twins get separated immediately and aren't aware of each other. Twins meet approx. 20 yrs later. Twins kiss. If anything, it's actually quite a predictable plot point.
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Darth-Stryphe
Title: In time you will call me Saga Manager!
Registered:
Apr '01
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Date Posted:
6/19 4:14pm
Subject:
RE: The Ultimate Editions: Discussing Changes to Possible Upcoming Releases of the Saga
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For the reasons I mentioned above, there's no way this scene is out of place IMO.
Leia kissing Luke isn't about a love triangle, it's about Han and Leia. Han's trying to put Leia in her place, but Leia turns the situation around and puts him in his place.
The love triangle was removed from the OT. Originally, Luke and Leia do share a tender moment. It was actually filmed, but edited out.
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zombie
Registered:
Aug '99
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Date Posted:
6/19 4:53pm
Subject:
RE: The Ultimate Editions: Discussing Changes to Possible Upcoming Releases of the Saga
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They still have the hots for each other though. The love triangle is still there, its just toned down. I mean if it were Lando in place of Luke do you think she still would have gone through with the kiss?
ESB's ending pretty much leaves the audience with the question--"will Luke and Leia become an item finally?"
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obi-rob-kenobi4
Registered:
Apr '07
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Date Posted:
6/19 11:42pm
Subject:
RE: The Ultimate Editions: Discussing Changes to Possible Upcoming Releases of the Saga
- Date Edited:
6/19 11:44pm (2 edits total)
Edited By:
obi-rob-kenobi4
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zombie posted:
They still have the hots for each other though. The love triangle is still there, its just toned down. I mean if it were Lando in place of Luke do you think she still would have gone through with the kiss?
ESB's ending pretty much leaves the audience with the question--"will Luke and Leia become an item finally?"
THANK YOU. Thats what i have been trying to say. If it was removed than the audience wont be left with this question. But people feel so comfortable with the excuses made up for the kiss that they dont want the kiss to even be removed anymore. No matter what way you choose to look at it the fact is that it has always been an infamous imperfection on the saga so if it was removed than this would at long last go away.
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so this is how liberty dies with thunderous applause.....
who am i,where am i going?
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woj101
Registered:
Feb '00
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Date Posted:
6/20 1:16am
Subject:
RE: The Ultimate Editions: Discussing Changes to Possible Upcoming Releases of the Saga
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a) I can honestly say I've never watched ESB and thought Luke and Leia were going to get together at the end. Leia has told Han she loves him, and the bond between Leia and Luke is quite clearly just friendship, IMO. I'm not sure what justification you can make to say the love triangle still exists.
b) Even if the love triangle did still exist, and 'that question' were hanging over the OT, I don't see how that is a problem. Audience questions and unknowns are a major part of SW success.
c) Rob - you call it an infamous imperfection. Again, I can honestly say that I've watched each film countless times over the past 20 years. That scene has never stuck out as there being anything wrong with it. You are implying that until ROTJ was made, GL never intended Luke and Leia to be siblings and that it's another continuity error. And yet when Obi-Wan says "That boy is our last hope" and Yoda says "No. There is another", I don't think there's a lot of doubt that this is referring to Leia (and hence you can conclude from the later revelations that GL had already decided they were siblings). Plus the communication Luke has with Leia when he's hanging from the weather vane supports that they have a connection through the Froce i.e. they are brother and sister.
As a result, I contend that the Luke/Leia kiss was always intended to be incestual, and therefore, if this was the intention, how is it an infamous imperfection?
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