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Topic:
The Ultimate Editions: Discussing Changes to Possible Upcoming Releases of the Saga
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DarthBoba
Registered:
Jun '00
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Date Posted:
6/26 12:06pm
Subject:
RE: The Ultimate Editions: Discussing Changes to Possible Upcoming Releases of the Saga
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TPM: Remove the pseudo-Judeo-Christian influence, and keep the Jedi religion 'Eastern' oriented.
Immaculate conception is not only a Judeo-Christian theme. It shows up well before then in alot of mythology.
http://englishatheist.org/indexd.shtml
The short list:
Horus, Jason, Ra, Attis, Dionysis, Perseus, Osiris, and Mithra all have virgin births. And yerp..none of them have anything to do with Judeo-Christian themes.
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zombie
Registered:
Aug '99
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Date Posted:
6/26 1:26pm
Subject:
RE: The Ultimate Editions: Discussing Changes to Possible Upcoming Releases of the Saga
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Though technically they are not "Immaculate Conception," that title being a christian (catholic?) concept which inexplicably is used to instead describe the conception of Mary and not Jesus--I'm sure there is some sort of retroactive muddling to explain how that got ascribed to Jesus' mother being conceived without "sin" and not Jesus himself.
But yeah, for lack of a better term, immaculate conception is not a christian concept, though I always find it amusing how everyone assumes it is and then complains about christian allegories in the film.
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I'll swallow your soul! --------------------------------- If you're gonna die, die with your boots on! -------------------------------- author of The Secret History of Star Wars http://secrethistoryofstarwars.com
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Vortigern99
Title: Manager Emeritus
Registered:
Nov '00
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Date Posted:
6/26 3:07pm
Subject:
RE: The Ultimate Editions: Discussing Changes to Possible Upcoming Releases of the Saga
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I want to chime in here and agree with Stryphe about the whole Leia/Luke kissing thing. As a 10-year old when ESB came out, I always understood that Leia was only kissing Luke to make Han jealous, even if Luke, naive as he was, didn't take it that way. And the hug at the end of the film always seemed more friendly to me than what Leia had with Han. So while, yes, there was something of a romantic undercurrent between L & L that we knew had to be resolved in the final film, we fans at the time knew this was mainly in Luke's mind. None of us (I mean myself and my childhood friends who talked SW) expected L & L to end up together; we all knew Han and Leia were made for each other.
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"I knew from the beginning I was not doing science fiction.
I was doing a space opera, a fantasy film, a mythological piece,
a fairy tale."--George Lucas
My "Vader's Origins" thread:
http://boards.theforce.net/Classic_Trilogy/b10002/8708417/p1
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BaronLandoCalrissian
Registered:
Jun '06
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Date Posted:
6/26 4:59pm
Subject:
RE: The Ultimate Editions: Discussing Changes to Possible Upcoming Releases of the Saga
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Again, Han/Ford was potentially NOT coming back. Empire's ending is designed to allow for that, the audiences preferences don't matter, sequels don't always turn out the way they "ought to". (and Lucas still considered it a "Love Triangle". even if it's not very good one, that's a separate thing) In other words, there's nothing definitive about Empire's ending, the uncertainty and ambiguity was kinda the whole point.
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Vortigern99
Title: Manager Emeritus
Registered:
Nov '00
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Date Posted:
6/27 9:36am
Subject:
RE: The Ultimate Editions: Discussing Changes to Possible Upcoming Releases of the Saga
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The possibility that Ford might not return for a third film arose during pre-production on ROTJ. It's true Ford and Kasdan tried to convince Lucas to kill the character off early in ROTJ, but from square one Lucas was adamant about bringing him back, and totally rejected the suggestion. So to view the ending of ESB from the perspective that the filmmakers did not know, at the time, whether Solo would return (or die early in the last film) is erroneous.
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"I knew from the beginning I was not doing science fiction.
I was doing a space opera, a fantasy film, a mythological piece,
a fairy tale."--George Lucas
My "Vader's Origins" thread:
http://boards.theforce.net/Classic_Trilogy/b10002/8708417/p1
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BaronLandoCalrissian
Registered:
Jun '06
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Date Posted:
6/27 10:25am
Subject:
RE: The Ultimate Editions: Discussing Changes to Possible Upcoming Releases of the Saga
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No. Fisher and Hamill signed for all 3. Ford did not, and according to Alan Arnold, not eager to. (Hence Lando.)This came up in 79. Ford wanting to die in Jedi was later, and separate.
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Vortigern99
Title: Manager Emeritus
Registered:
Nov '00
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Date Posted:
6/27 11:12am
Subject:
RE: The Ultimate Editions: Discussing Changes to Possible Upcoming Releases of the Saga
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 Can you quote me a source for that info? I'm aware that Ford signed his contracts per individual film, but the idea that he had qualms about returning for the third movie as early as the writing of the second movie (which took place in 1978, not 1979) is news to me.
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"I knew from the beginning I was not doing science fiction.
I was doing a space opera, a fantasy film, a mythological piece,
a fairy tale."--George Lucas
My "Vader's Origins" thread:
http://boards.theforce.net/Classic_Trilogy/b10002/8708417/p1
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BaronLandoCalrissian
Registered:
Jun '06
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Date Posted:
6/27 11:42am
Subject:
RE: The Ultimate Editions: Discussing Changes to Possible Upcoming Releases of the Saga
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Various interviews, Skywalking, but especially The Making of Empire book, Alan Arnold's journal of the movie. It was a frank, chatty book and Ford's status is very tenuous and uncertain throughout the production and beyond, with Arnold betting against Ford's return. This was before Raiders made Ford happier about his career or whatever. Its probably no accident the making of Jedi book is much more dry and sanitized.
Anyway cutting the "incest angle" brings up how far should these final versions go in terms of altering the initial content of the movies to fit the new story, vs. mere cosmetic/technical updates. Maybe there should be a poll: cosmetic changes vs. story changes/additons (like the oft-mentioned Palpatine/ Coruscant/ Organa stuff)
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zombie
Registered:
Aug '99
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Date Posted:
6/27 1:25pm
Subject:
RE: The Ultimate Editions: Discussing Changes to Possible Upcoming Releases of the Saga
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I'm not sure if Ford was actually against returning, his appearance in the third film was just tenuous. I think Ford and Lucas both suspected that he was would return, even though Ford made it clear he was non-comittal, as I don't think Ford would be callous enough to simply abandon the character. His main request, when it actually came time to discuss his involvement in film three, was that Solo's final fate was one of heroic self-sacrifice at the end of the picture; in the end though he agreed even though this never was implemented. I think he seems bored in the film because he was bored with the role and where the character went, which is not very far; I get the same impression from Fisher, relegated to sex slave and teddy bear ambassador, which also would explain her pretty phoned-in performance for most the film. But I think the feeling was that it was three films and then that was it, they had gone this far and they were a sort of family and they owed it to the fans and to the story to just do the final film for no other reason that completing the thing. Which is I think why Ford and Guiness both agreed.
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I'll swallow your soul! --------------------------------- If you're gonna die, die with your boots on! -------------------------------- author of The Secret History of Star Wars http://secrethistoryofstarwars.com
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Vortigern99
Title: Manager Emeritus
Registered:
Nov '00
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Date Posted:
6/27 3:37pm
Subject:
RE: The Ultimate Editions: Discussing Changes to Possible Upcoming Releases of the Saga
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Okay, well, if there was some question about Ford's involvement in film 3 during the production of film 2 (which during all my research into the making of ESB, my fave film of all time, I have never read or heard), then it makes sense the creators would want to leave the denouement of film 2 open-ended. But I still maintain that Han was clearly Leia's natural love interest -- even as a 10-year old in 1980 this was evident to me -- and that even if Han had died in ROTJ, and Luke and Leia had remained unrelated, the two would never have been linked romantically in any event. It would have felt forced and unnatural, especially after the events of ESB in which it was clearly established that Leia loved Han. Her taking Luke as a kind of consolation prize would have been dissatisfying from a dramatic standpoint, and would rather have been an insult to the Skywalker character.
So, to sum up, the filmmakers may have wanted to plant the romantic question in the audience's mind at the end of ESB ("Who will she end up with? Look -- Luke put his arm around her!") but they never fooled me for an instant, even as a kid. It's clear from the actors' chemistry and the direction of the story that Han and Leia were meant to be, regardless of Luke's feelings.
-----signature-----
"I knew from the beginning I was not doing science fiction.
I was doing a space opera, a fantasy film, a mythological piece,
a fairy tale."--George Lucas
My "Vader's Origins" thread:
http://boards.theforce.net/Classic_Trilogy/b10002/8708417/p1
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zombie
Registered:
Aug '99
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Date Posted:
6/27 4:10pm
Subject:
RE: The Ultimate Editions: Discussing Changes to Possible Upcoming Releases of the Saga
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I don't know if I would be so quick to write it off. Luke clearly has feelings for Leia and nothing changes--in fact the climax of ESB brings them closer together, emotionally, than they ever have been. Most people assumed that it would be Luke that would get the girl because he is essentially the viewers alter-ego. But I can very much imagine a more mature ROTJ that has a bittersweet resolution to the romantic triangle, where Luke and Leia end up together in the sad shadow of Han's death, dealing with grief and maybe even guilt but having a much deeper spiritual love than the more romantic/sexy sort of fling that Han and Leia had. But thats not to say that this was ever in the works, just that I can picture a ROTJ that took this direction.
On the other hand, Gary Kurtz has implied that there were temp plans made for ROTJ at one point in which Han died, Leia went off on her own but then Luke went off on his own with a higher calling to re-establish the Jedi way or somesuch; the bittersweetness here was that they never got together or stayed together and it was a sort "not meant to be" type of thing.
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I'll swallow your soul! --------------------------------- If you're gonna die, die with your boots on! -------------------------------- author of The Secret History of Star Wars http://secrethistoryofstarwars.com
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BaronLandoCalrissian
Registered:
Jun '06
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Date Posted:
6/27 5:05pm
Subject:
RE: The Ultimate Editions: Discussing Changes to Possible Upcoming Releases of the Saga
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Fisher and Hamill signed the contract for both sequels. Ford refused and remained unsigned throughout the production of Empire. And again, it doesn't matter the audience wanted her to end up with Han. The audience also wanted Sean Connery to keep on playing James Bond, but reality intrudes and sequels adapt and keep options open.
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GrandAdmiral_Frank
Registered:
Aug '03
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Date Posted:
6/27 9:41pm
Subject:
RE: The Ultimate Editions: Discussing Changes to Possible Upcoming Releases of the Saga
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TPM-I want to see more of Maul if possible
AOTC-Add on to the Battle of Geonosis. There are supposed to be scenes of Saesee Tinn and Plo Koon piloting Jedi Starfighters. Maybe have a scene where Grievous kills Jedi in the catacombs. Show more of the Tusken slaughter. More clone action.
ROTS-More battle of Kashyyyk. More Jedi deaths. More clone action. Maybe more Tarkin scenes. Add in the Rebellion scenes.
ANH-Palpatine dissolving the Senate. Bail on Alderaan meeting with Jar Jar when it is destroyed.
TESB-If it was filmed the dinner between Han, Leia, Chewie, Lando, and Darth Vader. Though Robot Chicken certainly will suffice.
ROTJ-All the deleted scenes. Maybe show even more planets at the ending celebration.
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Juan-King
Registered:
Jul '04
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Date Posted:
6/28 8:30am
Subject:
RE: The Ultimate Editions: Discussing Changes to Possible Upcoming Releases of the Saga
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BaronLandoCalrissian posted:
No. Fisher and Hamill signed for all 3. Ford did not, and according to Alan Arnold, not eager to. (Hence Lando.)This came up in 79. Ford wanting to die in Jedi was later, and separate.
correct , Ford was not signed for 3 like hamill and fisher were .
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DARTH_BELO
Registered:
Nov '03
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Date Posted:
6/29 7:36am
Subject:
RE: The Ultimate Editions: Discussing Changes to Possible Upcoming Releases of the Saga
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GrandAdmiral_Frank posted:
ROTJ-All the deleted scenes. Maybe show even more planets at the ending celebration.
Pardon my ignorance, but what deleted scenes WERE there for ROTJ?? 
this catches my interest! 
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There are NO trilogies - only ONE SAGA...
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