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Author	Topic: The Ultimate Editions: Discussing Changes to Possible Upcoming Releases of the Saga
evenstarr Registered: Jun '03	Date Posted: 7/2 1:08am Subject: RE: The Ultimate Editions: Discussing Changes to Possible Upcoming Releases of the Saga - Date Edited: 7/2 1:10am (1 edits total) Edited By: evenstarr
	drg4: "It bothers me that Anakin cracks a smile a mere two minutes after standing over his mother's grave. " Anakin is smiling at Padme, it makes perfect sense in the time frame of the narrative, where he's at and what's to come.
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Vortigern99 Title: Manager Emeritus Registered: Nov '00	Date Posted: 7/2 8:47am Subject: RE: The Ultimate Editions: Discussing Changes to Possible Upcoming Releases of the Saga
	^ ^ Plus which, I've attended several funerals and lost several close people, and I've observed that even on the day of the burial services, you have to smile occasionally -- real, sincere, heartfelt humor -- to stave off the darkness. Grieving is not mutually exclusive from feeling humor or joy, paradoxical as that might sound. -----signature----- "I knew from the beginning I was not doing science fiction. I was doing a space opera, a fantasy film, a mythological piece, a fairy tale."--George Lucas My "Vader's Origins" thread: http://boards.theforce.net/Classic_Trilogy/b10002/8708417/p1
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the_immolated_one Registered: Sep '06	Date Posted: 7/2 9:30am Subject: RE: The Ultimate Editions: Discussing Changes to Possible Upcoming Releases of the Saga
	drg4 posted: It bothers me that Anakin cracks a smile a mere two minutes after standing over his mother's grave. That Padme's Ruminations is punctuated by Palpatine's devolution into Disney villain. That Luke and Leia aren't burdened by the deaths of their surrogates. That Luke emerges a budding buddha in ROTJ, rather than a bundle of neuroses who stands a good chance of following his father into damnation. Those are all great points. If fact, it kinda bothered me too that Anakin smiles after he just buried his mother but I got over it. How about when Anakin's mother dies? Now that's classic histrionics. I really understand why you see "The Empire Strikes Back" as the best episode because it really is the episode with the least cheese. If I wasn't a fan of cheesy histrionics then I wouldn't be a fan of the saga. What can I say? I'm a fan of old movies like "How Green Was My Valley" and "South Pacific". I love the original "Star Trek" series and "CSI: Miami" just because of the over the top histrionics. The Star Wars saga is almost tame compared to the aforementioned entertainment.
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drg4 Registered: Jul '05	Date Posted: 7/2 12:17pm Subject: RE: The Ultimate Editions: Discussing Changes to Possible Upcoming Releases of the Saga
	Vortigern99 posted: ^ ^ Plus which, I've attended several funerals and lost several close people, and I've observed that even on the day of the burial services, you have to smile occasionally -- real, sincere, heartfelt humor -- to stave off the darkness. Grieving is not mutually exclusive from feeling humor or joy, paradoxical as that might sound. Problem is, he smiles as they whisk off to rescue a man who kept him from his mother for 10 years, who dismissed his anxieties as dreams that pass in time. Bugs me. Watching the film for the first time, I anticipated a rift, or even a tiff, that never came. By the dictates of logic, Anakin should despise Obi-Wan at this juncture, yet the paternal betrayal is given no commentary. (True, Anakin withholds the Padme premonitions, but this is offset by the strange fact that master and pupil grow closer in the three-year interim, rather than farther apart.) I just don't think I can carry SW with me into adulthood. I prefer that myths and fantasies be populated with living, breathing human beings, and these characters simply don't suffer and bleed and mourn as I'd expect. In a galaxy far, far away, it is so easy to shrug off death, and shirk the consequences of sin. It didn't occur to Lucas that Vader should answer for his role as chief-enforcer to a totalitarian regime, that Luke should care that Vader tortured his sister—-something so nasty as despair and righteous indignation might complicate an all-too-tidy and shamelessly sentimental redemption story. Might take us to dark places, which gives greater resonance to the eventual triumph. The Lord of the Rings and Pan's Labyrinth managed this; it's a pity that Star Wars couldn't.
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ezekiel22x Registered: Aug '02	Date Posted: 7/2 2:28pm Subject: RE: The Ultimate Editions: Discussing Changes to Possible Upcoming Releases of the Saga
	drg4 posted: Problem is, he smiles as they whisk off to rescue a man who kept him from his mother for 10 years, who dismissed his anxieties as dreams that pass in time. Bugs me. Watching the film for the first time, I anticipated a rift, or even a tiff, that never came. By the dictates of logic, Anakin should despise Obi-Wan at this juncture, yet the paternal betrayal is given no commentary. I disagree with this. I think it's the Jedi Order as a whole that kept Anakin away from his mother more so than Obi-Wan as an individual, so even though Obi-Wan's was the primary guiding voice I can understand why Anakin wouldn't single out his friend and mentor at this juncture in a one on one vendetta. Also, I think it's key that Anakin did vent his rage in an extraordinarily horrific manner with the Tusken slaughter. He then feels remorse for his murderous rampage, so I think it makes sense that afterwards he immediately redirects his attention towards preserving a life. And, of course, I think it's for good reason that the films build towards the point that the loss of his mother was an initial stepping stone to the darkest brand of aggression, not the primary fulcrum that pushes Anakin over the brink. Padme will fill that role, and it's for that reason that the rift between Anakin and Obi-Wan begins in earnest when Obi-Wan demands on the gunship that Anakin accept his place and forget about the woman he loves, the woman that is very much an active part of his life at this point in time.
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evenstarr Registered: Jun '03	Date Posted: 7/2 3:15pm Subject: RE: The Ultimate Editions: Discussing Changes to Possible Upcoming Releases of the Saga - Date Edited: 7/2 3:17pm (1 edits total) Edited By: evenstarr
	"Problem is, he smiles as they whisk off to rescue a man who kept him from his mother for 10 years, who dismissed his anxieties as dreams that pass in time. Bugs me." In a way that explains why the prequel trilogy is mystifying for some i guess. Anakin flipped out after his mother's death which was partly the result of him going into unchartered territory and trying to re-connect with his un-jedi order self. He did feel resentment to Obi-wan and the orders were not to get involved, and he had gotten into a state last time he went outside those following his dreams about his mother. But Obi-Wan was still one of his main connections so at the same time he really didn't want him to be killed, he was just angry about the situation. And that's what the prequel trilogy is, Anakin slowly becoming more and more adrift. Can't resist LOTR comment, liked the first one although the things i let pass about it which i didn't like were at the forefront in the last two. Ended up being a bombastic chitzy romp through the story with battle after non-sensical battle, one dimensional characters, an onslaught of never ending "noble" moments and declarations all at the drop of a hat and general over the top pompousness due to the liberal use of flowery philosophical dialogue over the afore mentioned black and white adaption. Was reduced to a great production of one set piece after another to me.
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woj101 Registered: Feb '00	Date Posted: 7/2 3:19pm Subject: RE: The Ultimate Editions: Discussing Changes to Possible Upcoming Releases of the Saga
	responding to drg4: ... or you could say that Vader did answer for his mistakes by the sacrifices he was manipulated into: a) Anakin is a victim b) You can easily argue that what he was doing was right, from a certain point of view. You can't just forget the 'nothing's black and white' interpretations of ROTS for the simpicity of making your point. Anakin was conflicted, deceived, and attempting to protect the republic. 'Good' and 'evil', like history in general, depend on hindsight. You suggest Vader should answer for his actions, but the new angle and sense of tragedy that's carried through the OT since the release of ROTS when it comes to Vader, surely suggests that he is answering for them. Also, are you aware of the concept of truth and reconciliation? Whether or not Luke knows that Vader tortured Leia or not, that doesn't really alter the position Luke is in. He knows Vader's got his problems etc. but he sees beyond them. And again, sin is subjective. The saga presents this idea to me, and in doing so achieves more depth than many other films. Also, it's refreshing that the saga doesn't portray death with the morbidity that you would seem to want. I think there's plenty of films around to go see if you feel like dwelling on the downside of death. Everyone dies. What gives? Rejoice for those around you who transform into the force. Mourn them do not. Miss them do not. If all the films were as 'dark' as TESB, then TESB wouldn't stand out and the saga wouldn't work as well and would give the saga a completely different dynamic and wouldn't have same broad appeal. You call it shameless sentimentality, but I think you're over-simplifying it. And I can't believe Pan's Labyrinth has come into this. If ever there was a film I was led to believe would be really good and turned out to not even warrant a second viewing, it was that film. And with regard to the earlier question of cosmetic changes versus story additions I don't think either are unwelcome if done with a bit more quality than the SEs. What I have a problem with is removing original material i.e. chopping a scene half way through. -----signature----- You've failed Your Highness. I am a cider-drinker, like my father before me.
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drg4 Registered: Jul '05	Date Posted: 7/2 5:08pm Subject: RE: The Ultimate Editions: Discussing Changes to Possible Upcoming Releases of the Saga
	woj101 posted: ... or you could say that Vader did answer for his mistakes by the sacrifices he was manipulated into: a) Anakin is a victim b) You can easily argue that what he was doing was right, from a certain point of view. You can't just forget the 'nothing's black and white' interpretations of ROTS for the simpicity of making your point. Anakin was conflicted, deceived, and attempting to protect the republic. 'Good' and 'evil', like history in general, depend on hindsight. Intention is largely irrelevant; everyone, apart from psychopaths, thinks they're doing the right thing. General Pinochet convinced himself he was purging Chile of Marxist-Leninism. But what he actually did was dismantle a democratic socialist government, replace it with a fascistic one, executed thousands of human beings, and had tens of thousands more brutally tortured. Maybe someday, George Lucas will make a series about ol' Augusto: in Ep. I, we'll find out how much he loved his mommy; in Ep. II, he'll attract the notice of Henry Kissinger and Milton Friedman; in the next three, he'll wage his atrocities in the name of the free market; in Ep. VI, he'll redeem himself by saving his kid's life. It'll be heartwarming.
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the_immolated_one Registered: Sep '06	Date Posted: 7/2 6:22pm Subject: RE: The Ultimate Editions: Discussing Changes to Possible Upcoming Releases of the Saga - Date Edited: 7/2 6:26pm (1 edits total) Edited By: the_immolated_one
	drg4 posted: It didn't occur to Lucas that Vader should answer for his role as chief-enforcer to a totalitarian regime, that Luke should care that Vader tortured his sister—-something so nasty as despair and righteous indignation might complicate an all-too-tidy and shamelessly sentimental redemption story. Might take us to dark places, which gives greater resonance to the eventual triumph. The Lord of the Rings and Pan's Labyrinth managed this; it's a pity that Star Wars couldn't. Yeah, I know what you mean. But.... Just hear what I say next with an open mind and maybe you'll appreciate what I believe Lucas has created. What you're watching when you watch the Star Wars saga has already happened and it is being reviewed by the higher power that watches over mortals in the Star Wars story. In my opinion the crawls are a framing device, right? But what they really are is like a cosmic historical diary that is kept by these Star Wars gods and the story changes from written words to visuals. You have 2 versions of the truth going on in Star Wars: You have what the gods see as the truth and you have what the mortals see as the truth. The gods gave Anakin to the mortals for two reasons: 1) To help point them in the right direction, 2) To help them combat evil. You have to appreciate I'm just using the word gods because it's a nice easy word to type but it's just a word to describe divinity. Divinity can also be called "the great mystery" which is exactly what Palpatine calls it. One of the reasons I like to use the word gods is because that's what JarJar calls it. I hope you've made it this far without thinking me mad. The gods are looking down on these Jedi and these gods are judging the Jedi. Anakin just can't start saying that there are gods and that the gods want the Jedi to stop being so wrapped up in the buracracy of the Republic and that the gods want the Jedi to come down from their ivory tower and start going around fighting injustice and things like that. Anakin can't do that because that would interfere with free will. The Jedi have to want to do these things on their own. Well anyway these gods are testing the Jedi. The Jedi fail their first test which was to see if the Jedi would help this boy free his mother and the other slaves on Tatooine. The second test by these gods was to see if the Jedi would help free the slaves on Kamino. The Jedi fail test #2. The Jedi not only fail to free the clones but the Jedi become the slave masters. The third test by these gods was to see if the Jedi would kill an unarmed man. The Jedi fail test #3. The slaughter of all the Jedi at the hands of the slaves is the result of the Jedi's apathy and corruption. See the story isn't about Vader's corruption and redemption. It's about the Jedi's corruption and redemption. It's about the redemption of all the people who stood by and did nothing while children were being born into bondage and things like that. The embodiment of this redemption is called the Rebel Alliance. drg4 posted: It didn't occur to Lucas that Vader should answer for his role as chief-enforcer to a totalitarian regime, that Luke should care that Vader tortured his sister—-something so nasty as despair and righteous indignation might complicate an all-too-tidy and shamelessly sentimental redemption story. In my opinion, all of this did occur to Lucas but he was looking at the bigger picture. Vader just gave the people what they wanted. Vader doesn't have the same kind of free will as the mortals of the story because he is only half mortal. It is Yoda and Palpatine who have total free will. Lucas just used all the old school human spiritual idiology to create a story. One of those spiritual beliefs is that divinity tests mortals all the time and the another spiritual belief is that divinity works in mysterious ways and those two beliefs are really just two sides of the same coin. The reason this is not all explained in the Star Wars movies is for the same reason that we don't really know if the girl in "Pan's Labyrinth" is really living simultaneously in a world of fantasy and a world of brutal reality until the very end of the movie and then do we really know? I guess we do. See we can just plainly see that the girl in "Pan's Labyrinth" is being tested but in "Star Wars" if you're not willing to question what all the characters are doing then you're never going to see that it is not Anakin who is being tested but it is the Jedi who are being tested in "Star Wars". Well anyway that's my take on it. If I'm correct then "Star Wars" blows "The Lord of the Rings" right out of the water. If I'm correct then I think "Star Wars" is one of the greatest cinematic allegories ever created.
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BaronLandoCalrissian Registered: Jun '06	Date Posted: 7/2 9:15pm Subject: RE: The Ultimate Editions: Discussing Changes to Possible Upcoming Releases of the Saga
	I know that the shifts in tone and story emphasis across the series bothers a lot of people, so I'm probably the weird one here, but: why does every episode have to gel with each other at all? Am I the only one who likes that variety? (I even missed having 3 different cinematographers in the prequels). I think that is a key ingredient to the series' rewatchability, especially vs. lord of the Rings. (I always hated fantasy, I had to be dragged to Rings, but I LOVED that first one, and the second one too, but eventually it all blends into one blob in my mind. Each Star Wars episode is very distinct.) And to crowbar that towards the topic: The changes most desired here seem to be aimed the other way, at homogenizing the series into one blob. Which I think would be a bummer. "That saga sure is consistent." Hooray. I think that would ultimately be a pretty hollow moment. (as opposed to the fairly extensive yet mostly invisibly altered Blade Runner 2007)
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Vortigern99 Title: Manager Emeritus Registered: Nov '00	Date Posted: 7/2 9:45pm Subject: RE: The Ultimate Editions: Discussing Changes to Possible Upcoming Releases of the Saga
	Yes, I'm going to forego my off-topic commentary on the reams of ruminations offered in the last several posts (enlightening and entertaining as those ruminations have been), and agree with BLC that variety in the various SW episodes is good -- variety, and mystery. The changes in tone and style evident in the OT films were clearly repeated in the PT, presumably on purpose in order to mimic those earlier, unintentional shifts; and questions between PT films went unanswered just as they did between OT films. There is no reason why we must shoehorn every single episode into some homogenous uber-saga that is utterly mystery-free and devoid of variation. The missing Emperor and Yoda in 'ANH' is a good thing. The sleek, colored ships in the PT are good. The chunky gray OT vessels are good. The slow kendo duel in 'ANH' is good. The leaping frenetic kung fu warriors in the PT are good. Etc. -----signature----- "I knew from the beginning I was not doing science fiction. I was doing a space opera, a fantasy film, a mythological piece, a fairy tale."--George Lucas My "Vader's Origins" thread: http://boards.theforce.net/Classic_Trilogy/b10002/8708417/p1
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zombie Registered: Aug '99	Date Posted: 7/2 11:10pm Subject: RE: The Ultimate Editions: Discussing Changes to Possible Upcoming Releases of the Saga
	Vortigern99 posted: variety in the various SW episodes is good -- variety, and mystery. The changes in tone and style evident in the OT films were clearly repeated in the PT, presumably on purpose in order to mimic those earlier, unintentional shifts I would argue that this shift is entirely unintential, but stems from the same root cause, that is, making it up as you go (and to a lesser extent, confusion or unsureness in direction of the series). Someone once observed to me that Star Wars is like the Bible in that in some sense the contradictions and mosaic way in which it has been assembled, all the while asserting consistency and coherancy, is in some sense part of the mystery and fascination that draws us to continue to analyse and probe the meaning of the work. I would say this is probably true; if it all worked the way we would expect it would had it all been schemed up at once--and schemed up well--it would doubtless be less intellectually interesting than the fractured state it is in right now. Though I'm not sure how well that works as an entertainment. But in any case its an interesting way of looking at it. -----signature----- I'll swallow your soul! --------------------------------- If you're gonna die, die with your boots on! -------------------------------- author of The Secret History of Star Wars http://secrethistoryofstarwars.com
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Vortigern99 Title: Manager Emeritus Registered: Nov '00	Date Posted: 7/3 8:38am Subject: RE: The Ultimate Editions: Discussing Changes to Possible Upcoming Releases of the Saga
	I agree that the OT is/was unintentionally inconsistent, by dint of the way those three films were made, with different creative teams/directors and an unclear gameplan going in. But with the PT, I would argue that Lucas knew exactly what he was doing; he intentionally reproduced the variation and evident inconsistency of the OT films in order to, in a sense, cover his tracks as a creator. The tonal shift that occurs from TPM to ROTS cannot be explained as accidental, or anything other than purposeful, since he knew precisely where the story was headed, and avowed in interviews as early as 1999 that the third film would be the dark, death-ridden film that some fans had expected TPM to be. Also, it's clear to me that Lucas intentionally varied the cinematic style of each PT film in order to "mirror" similar stylistic shifts in the OT; for example, his use of extreme close-ups in ROTS mimics the same technique in ESB, whereas in the other films, both OT and PT, the shots are wider. This is just one example, and I could go on, but suffice to say, IMO the perception that the stylistic shifts in the PT were as unintentional as those in the OT is to underestimate the detailed planning that went into the new movies. -----signature----- "I knew from the beginning I was not doing science fiction. I was doing a space opera, a fantasy film, a mythological piece, a fairy tale."--George Lucas My "Vader's Origins" thread: http://boards.theforce.net/Classic_Trilogy/b10002/8708417/p1
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zombie Registered: Aug '99	Date Posted: 7/3 8:53am Subject: RE: The Ultimate Editions: Discussing Changes to Possible Upcoming Releases of the Saga - Date Edited: 7/3 8:55am (2 edits total) Edited By: zombie
	There's still enough inconsistencies and dropped plot/character threads to indicate the game plan changed and/or was invented as he went, in equal or more amounts as the OT--his admission that he only knew 10% of TPM and 10% of AOTC when he started in 1994 would seem to confirm this, and even ROTS had 50% of its material changed to such extent that it indicates Lucas made those parts up only when it came time to do so in 2002. And, while the lightness of TPM to the darkness of ROTS was obviously a planned arc, I think the resultant tonal identity of each film was not pre-meditated until Lucas actually got to each film--ie TPM is a whimsical children's fantasy (and less a Star Wars film), AOTC is a pure B-movie homage to pulp fiction, and then ROTS is a straight, serious character drama (though I'll grant that to a large degree this is how Lucas always intended the third film coming across--I'm just pointing it out that the three prequels are equally or more dissonant than the three original films, and not necessarily in intentional ways). -----signature----- I'll swallow your soul! --------------------------------- If you're gonna die, die with your boots on! -------------------------------- author of The Secret History of Star Wars http://secrethistoryofstarwars.com
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Vortigern99 Title: Manager Emeritus Registered: Nov '00	Date Posted: 7/3 12:04pm Subject: RE: The Ultimate Editions: Discussing Changes to Possible Upcoming Releases of the Saga
	Well, of course the game plan changed through the course of the PT; that is the nature of the creative process. New elements were invented and old ones dropped as the prequel series developed; I did not mean to indicate that I believed otherwise. I certainly agree that the PT films are dissonant with each other, but again my perception here is that this time around it was mainly intentional, in part to allow Lucas to cover his tracks, so to speak, and make the (accidental) stylistic inconsistencies of the OT feel like they are of a piece with those (mainly intentional) of the PT. The tonal shift in the PT HAD to be planned ahead of time; Lucas knew he was going to end up dark and morbid, so he felt like he needed to start bright and cheerful. This is a game plan that was firmly in place as early as 1997, when he began writing the Ep. I screenplay. I give credit to Lucas for at the very least being a clever retconner and a brilliant visual filmmaker, and the idea that he planned the PT to mirror the OT both in terms of cinematic technique and sense of stylistic variation from film to film is evident in the finished product and in interiews he conducted in which he talks about the styistic shift from PT films 1-3. -----signature----- "I knew from the beginning I was not doing science fiction. I was doing a space opera, a fantasy film, a mythological piece, a fairy tale."--George Lucas My "Vader's Origins" thread: http://boards.theforce.net/Classic_Trilogy/b10002/8708417/p1
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