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Topic:
What plotline, character or scene in the entire Saga irritates you the most?
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mandragora
Registered:
May '05
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Date Posted:
3/11 2:13am
Subject:
RE: What plotline, character or scene in the entire Saga irritates you the most?
- Date Edited:
3/11 2:13am (1 edits total)
Edited By:
mandragora
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Concerning the Anakin-Palpatine-scene, I always took that as a means to show that a relationship had been built up (not that it was starting to build) - ten years have passed since Anakin arrived on Coruscant, and Palpatine's last words to Anakin was that he would "watch his career with great interest". Also, Obi-Wan warned Anakin to be careful "with your friend Palpatine". Also indicating that a friendship been there for quite some time.
Concerning Qui-Gon Jinn, who says that he didn't make contact with Yoda in the time between the end of TPM and the end of ROTS? What with dealing with Separatists and Clone Wars, Yoda might have had simply more pressing concerns than teaching and training the rest of the Jedi to achieve immortality.
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“Whoever fights monsters should see to it that in the process he does not become a monster. And if you gaze long enough into an abyss, the abyss will gaze back into you.” —Friedrich Nietzsche
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latverian33
Registered:
Feb '08
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Date Posted:
3/11 3:47am
Subject:
RE: What plotline, character or scene in the entire Saga irritates you the most?
- Date Edited:
3/11 3:58am (2 edits total)
Edited By:
latverian33
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More pressing concernes?
Teach a younglin to use a lightsaber so he doesn't get killed but neglect teaching him how to stay alive after he dies incase he does get killed?
That makes a lot of sense.
That's another thing that annoys me about the prequels. Lucas neglected key scenes and the build up of emotional attachment between the fan and the character to intice the proper emotion when key events happend on screen.
I know and maybe some of you did too when I first seen and even still see obi-wan get killed by vader in a new hope..I felt gut punched almost. When Luke told Leia in the falcon "i cant believe hes gone" I and im sure many others felt what luke was going through. those same emotions. When han is being lowered into te carbonite chamber. It is a very depressing scene. The theme, leaies sad look, hans face slowly dropping into the chamber you feel emotion and sorrow because you have built such a connection with these charcters whether it be admiration, love, or what have you.
When the prequels first started I wanted to have some kind of emotional connection towards anakin. I wanted to to like him and admire him. I wanted that gut punch feeling when the moment came he turned to the dark side and to leave the theater feeling almost depressed and sad. Then at the end of return of the jedi when anakin makes his heroic return that same emotion would overwhelm you when he kills the emprero and have you saying YES HE'S BACK!
But we were not given these emotional attachments. That is a plotline that irritats me.
About anakin and the emperors relationship...same thing
Maybe if we had seen some kind of big brother/little brother father/son relationship going on between papatine and anakin then we would have had some kind of emotional attachment when anakin saves him from windu or when vader keeps looking back and fourth at luke and the emperor and debating on who he should save...his son or this person who has been like a father and mentor to him since 9 yrs old. This would have even added more crediablity to why he turned to the dark side instead of just because of bad dreams of his wife dying.
But we were not shown anything bettwen the two except a 3 minute conversation.
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"Everything is Cannon fodder"-Megatron
V.I.N.CENT: To quote Cicero: rashness is the characteristic of youth, prudence that of mellowed age, and discretion the better part of valor
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mandragora
Registered:
May '05
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Date Posted:
3/11 4:20am
Subject:
RE: What plotline, character or scene in the entire Saga irritates you the most?
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latverian33 posted:
More pressing concernes?
Teach a younglin to use a lightsaber so he doesn't get killed but neglect teaching him how to stay alive after he dies incase he does get killed?
That makes a lot of sense.
Actually, from the viewpoint of an order that's been dedicated to serve the people, it does. "The Jedi are selfless. They only care about others." From that POV, spending one's time to defend the republic is clearly more important than spending it on training how to become a force ghost.
Before Qui-Gon Jinn's discovery, no Jedi ever learned to become a force ghost, so it's clearly not essential for a Jedi. Serving the people, by contrast, is.
And Qui-Gon's doesn't exactly mean they stay alive - they still die, they just learn how to retain their self after death.
... posted:
Maybe if we had seen some kind of big brother/little brother father/son relationship going on between papatine and anakin then we would have had some kind of emotional attachment when anakin saves him from windu or when vader keeps looking back and fourth at luke and the emperor and debating on who he should save...his son or this person who has been like a father and mentor to him since 9 yrs old. This would have even added more crediablity to why he turned to the dark side instead of just because of bad dreams of his wife dying.
I don't see it like that at all. As I said elsewhere, I see the problems with Anakin in TPM on Tatooine already. "I don't want things to change." - "No-one can kill a Jedi." Then of course there is the lack of trust and human relationship between the Jedi Council and Anakin, the problem with his mother. I agree that the emotional attachment wasn't as strong as it could have been, but nevertheless, taking the build-up in TPM and AOTC into account, I found the turn credible. I'm not sure whether the emotional attachment was even intended - I don't think Anakin was intended to be a *wholly* likeable character. To an extent, but not entirely. Of course, that's quite different from the OT, where everyone was pretty much either black or white. Anakin clearly is a character who's neither black or white, but a person with lots of shades of grey.
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“Whoever fights monsters should see to it that in the process he does not become a monster. And if you gaze long enough into an abyss, the abyss will gaze back into you.” —Friedrich Nietzsche
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Arawn_Fenn
Registered:
Jul '04
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Date Posted:
3/11 12:56pm
Subject:
RE: What plotline, character or scene in the entire Saga irritates you the most?
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zombie posted:
Arawn_Fenn posted:
latverian33 posted:
It is a little difficult to swallow since Qui-Gon learned the secret of immortality after he died.
Not necessarily.
This is actually an interesting aspect I never really paid much attention to--when exactly did Qui Gon learn how to be immortal? It would seem it was at some undefined point in his past when he came across a shaman who instructed him. So this would mean that for the entire length of TPM, Qui Gon really is harboring this secret that he has the ability to live forever. It would have been interesting to make this integrated into his character better. It also raises some questions--that being its somewhat suspicious the way he would not share the biggest discovery about the Force in Jedi history.
I would argue that he probably wasn't sure it would work.
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The world will look up and shout, "Save us." And I'll whisper: "No". - Rorschach
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Jango10
Registered:
Sep '02
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Date Posted:
3/11 2:52pm
Subject:
RE: What plotline, character or scene in the entire Saga irritates you the most?
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latverian33 posted:
When the prequels first started I wanted to have some kind of emotional connection towards anakin. I wanted to to like him and admire him. I wanted that gut punch feeling when the moment came he turned to the dark side and to leave the theater feeling almost depressed and sad. Then at the end of return of the jedi when anakin makes his heroic return that same emotion would overwhelm you when he kills the emprero and have you saying YES HE'S BACK!
I disagree. There were a lot of people that really felt for Anakin. Some people were crying in the theater during the ruminations scene, because they knew what Anakin was about to do.
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McCain/Palin '08
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latverian33
Registered:
Feb '08
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Date Posted:
3/11 2:55pm
Subject:
RE: What plotline, character or scene in the entire Saga irritates you the most?
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crying?
I went to see revenge of the sith twice and the only kind of emotion I seen or heard out of ppl were laughter at certain scenes.
I guess some people find it easy to feel sorrow for a little whiney brat.
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"Everything is Cannon fodder"-Megatron
V.I.N.CENT: To quote Cicero: rashness is the characteristic of youth, prudence that of mellowed age, and discretion the better part of valor
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Vortigern99
Title: Manager Emeritus
Registered:
Nov '00
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Date Posted:
3/11 3:31pm
Subject:
RE: What plotline, character or scene in the entire Saga irritates you the most?
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Insofar as Anakin is human, prone to the same frailites we all possess to varying degrees, and is worthy of compassion, yes, I would agree. Certainly my eyes tend to fog up in that sequence, which while not actually "crying" in certainly indicative of a emotional and sympathetic experience.
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"I knew from the beginning I was not doing science fiction.
I was doing a space opera, a fantasy film, a mythological piece,
a fairy tale."--George Lucas
My "Vader's Origins" thread:
http://boards.theforce.net/Classic_Trilogy/b10002/8708417/p1
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Jango10
Registered:
Sep '02
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Date Posted:
3/11 3:52pm
Subject:
RE: What plotline, character or scene in the entire Saga irritates you the most?
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latverian33 posted:
crying?
I went to see revenge of the sith twice and the only kind of emotion I seen or heard out of ppl were laughter at certain scenes.
I guess some people find it easy to feel sorrow for a little whiney brat.
Alrighty then.
The audience also applauded at the end of the film*, first time that has ever happened to me. Since then, I have seen applause at the end of 300 and I Am Legend.
*This was on opening night. I saw it two more times, but the other two shows didn't applaude like the first.
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"I love the smell of Napalm in the morning."
McCain/Palin '08
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chibiangi
Registered:
Jun '02
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Date Posted:
3/11 10:14pm
Subject:
RE: What plotline, character or scene in the entire Saga irritates you the most?
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Star Wars makes me cry when I am having some kind of hormonal crisis. I just went back on birth control and another hormonal medication and OMGLOLZ I was sobbing at "teh babies, those poor babies!"
So yeah, I can see why people could have that response, especially if something in the series touches them a certain way or if they are movie criers. Some people just really get into it and cry at everything. Although SW is pretty hokey on the surface, so you don't see it much.
I think Anakin was a much more sympathetic character in ROTS than in AOTC, mostly due to the fact that he was an immature lil brat in AOTC. He grew up a bit between the two films.
I think the impact would have been greater if they had laid more groundwork on the romance between the two. If we left AOTC with the feeling these two were passionate, fated lovers then his attachment to Padme and subsequent fall would have been much more emotional. Lucas predicated Anakin's fall on his love/attachment to Padme and not wanting to lose her but completely missed the mark in building the two characters and their romance to the point where the viewer leaves emotionally charged that Anakin has fallen and Padme has died.
However, Lucas made the choice to cut the romance down in order to beef up the action because as he says, the films are for boys. Unfortunately, the akward way the romance played out and the way it never really connected kind of ended up detracting from the point of the action, IMO.
I mean really, Padme plays this important role in the PT, dies and is never spoken about ever again.
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mujaki na kao de boku ni hohoemu
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mandragora
Registered:
May '05
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Date Posted:
3/12 1:17am
Subject:
RE: What plotline, character or scene in the entire Saga irritates you the most?
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Jango10 posted:
I disagree. There were a lot of people that really felt for Anakin. Some people were crying in the theater during the ruminations scene, because they knew what Anakin was about to do.
I didn't hear anyone crying, but most certainly no-one was laughing. There was utter silence, I've rarely seen people walking so shocked out of a film.
Now I think most would agree that the romance part could've been done better. But I still maintain that Anakin wasn't supposed to be an entirely sympathetic character. To a degree, but not entirely.
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“Whoever fights monsters should see to it that in the process he does not become a monster. And if you gaze long enough into an abyss, the abyss will gaze back into you.” —Friedrich Nietzsche
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latverian33
Registered:
Feb '08
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Date Posted:
3/12 6:35am
Subject:
RE: What plotline, character or scene in the entire Saga irritates you the most?
- Date Edited:
3/12 6:43am (2 edits total)
Edited By:
latverian33
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I am not saying I have never shed a tear for these films.
I have been drunk and shed a tear many times just watching certain scenes in the ESB. I have as well when Spock died in wrath of khan.
I can honestly say on all that is holy and not trying to be a hater or smart a** that people were laughing at certain scenes in revenge of the sith. The Vader NOOOOO! and The scene where anakin drops to his knees and palpatine says GOOOOOOD!! Also the scene where palpatine shouts NO NO NO YOU WILL DIE at Windu. Many people in the theater were laughing. My self included.
About the qui-gon life after death situation. It does raise many questions. If he did indeed know this why did he not ever appear to anakin or obi-wan and help with anakins training or step in when he seen anakin turning to the dark side?
Also why was Qui-gon not shown as a force spirit at end of sith talking to yoda instead of out of the blue yoda says "hey guess what...I just talked to our old buddie qui-gon"
That is so lame. I know for a fact liam neeson had many negative comments about the way lucas directed phantom menace and also disliked working in front of a blue screen and even said some negative things about that. SO the only two possible reasons are that Lucas was too cheap to pay neeson what he wanted or he just didn't want to use him because of his comments. There is of course the possiblity that he did film qui-gon and he is saving it for some future special dvd release. Which would not at all surprise me.
That is the only reason why all these changes are added anyways is so Lucas can sell more dvds.
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"Everything is Cannon fodder"-Megatron
V.I.N.CENT: To quote Cicero: rashness is the characteristic of youth, prudence that of mellowed age, and discretion the better part of valor
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mandragora
Registered:
May '05
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Date Posted:
3/12 7:30am
Subject:
RE: What plotline, character or scene in the entire Saga irritates you the most?
- Date Edited:
3/12 7:30am (1 edits total)
Edited By:
mandragora
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Well, it takes a lot to make me cry, even more so because of a movie, and neither Star Wars nor Star Trek ever managed to get me even close to it. I don't think characterisation is one of Lucas' strength, in either of the trilogies, nor is bringing forth emotional responses from the audiences. But every writer has their strengths and weaknesses, and if I'm looking for excellent characterisation and ability to bring out emotional responses, I'm not looking for it in Star Wars (or Star Trek, or LOTR, for that matter). In this respect, there are much more capable writers and directors; I'm enjoying Star Wars for other reasons than that.
Concerning people laughing, to be fair, for some people (and I *don't* mean you, or anyone else on these boards) regrettably bashing Lucas and making fun of him has become some sort of a hobby ever since the special edition was published. For those people he could write and direct the greatest drama possible and he still wouldn't get anything but a laugh out of them.
Re Qui-Gon Jinn: I thought that Neeson declined to appear in ROTS, but I could be wrong. While I realise Lucas' shortcomings as a director, I have little understanding for actors complaining about the blue screen work. Anyone who agrees to take on a part in a sci-fi movie *knows* that there's gonna be blue screen work. If someone isn't comfortable with it, he simply should decline the role. If they are uncomfortable with blue screen work, this isn't the fault of the director.
We did hear Qui-Gon calling out to Anakin in AOTC, when Anakin went after the Tuskens, though. It's possible to explain away why he wouldn't be able to retain an image of his corporeal self, assuming that there are certain stages of the practise that usually have to be accomplished before dying, and Qui-Gon simply died to early before he had completed his training. So he could make contact from the netherworlds, but wasn't capable of appearing in corporal form. This might seem reaching, but actually the whole idea of being able to become a force ghost as a result of training strongly resembles a legendary idea of Taoist qigong practices that outlines precisely the same notion (and I don't think the name Qui-Gon resembles the term qigong just coincidentially). It outlines a series of practises that in their last stages enable the adept to retain his conscious self to a lesser or greater degree. Becoming the equivalent of a Force Ghost is one of the last stages, before the adept is capable of communicating, but not of appearing as an image of his corporeal identity.
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“Whoever fights monsters should see to it that in the process he does not become a monster. And if you gaze long enough into an abyss, the abyss will gaze back into you.” —Friedrich Nietzsche
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Jango10
Registered:
Sep '02
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Date Posted:
3/12 7:13pm
Subject:
RE: What plotline, character or scene in the entire Saga irritates you the most?
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latverian33 posted:
I can honestly say on all that is holy and not trying to be a hater or smart a** that people were laughing at certain scenes in revenge of the sith. The Vader NOOOOO! and The scene where anakin drops to his knees and palpatine says GOOOOOOD!! Also the scene where palpatine shouts NO NO NO YOU WILL DIE at Windu. Many people in the theater were laughing. My self included.
I will specify myself. The first time I went and watched ROTS was on opening night, with a packed house. I went with my family (it had been a traidition since my dad took me to see ANH SE back in '97). It was my two sisters and my mom who were crying. I didn't know if anyone else did or not.
But after the movie was over, it was met to resounding applause. Everyone seemed to enjoy it. No one made wisecracks or anything. The only time people laughed was when they were supposed to laugh. I can only remember two parts: When Yoda knocked over the two guards and when Yoda made his little karate move after throwing Palpatine across the room.
I don't even remember anyone laughing during AOTC or TPM, but they weren't met to the same applause that ROTS was.
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"I love the smell of Napalm in the morning."
McCain/Palin '08
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SithStarSlayer
Registered:
Oct '03
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Date Posted:
3/13 8:54am
Subject:
RE: What plotline, character or scene in the entire Saga irritates you the most?
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Thanks for the invite Vort, I like this thread!
zombie posted:
This is actually an interesting aspect I never really paid much attention to--when exactly did Qui Gon learn how to be immortal? It would seem it was at some undefined point in his past when he came across a shaman who instructed him. So this would mean that for the entire length of TPM, Qui Gon really is harboring this secret that he has the ability to live forever. It would have been interesting to make this integrated into his character better. It also raises some questions--that being its somewhat suspicious the way he would not share the biggest discovery about the Force in Jedi history.
Maybe he did share the info and was rejected? Perhaps it was due to him being seen as a maverick? Maybe the other jedi did not hold the Shaman in such high esteem as Jinn did? In any case, it does not appear to be something that was well-thought-out by Lucas.
The same can be said for the two things that fry me the most, midichlorians and how the Force-feats were so inconsistently done. Dooku can just Force-choke Kenobi and toss him across a room with ease, and yet the extra-midichlorianted darkside-empowered AnaVader can't even land a Force-push? I could go on but my lunch is drawing to a close. 
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Lucas didn't ruin my childhood, but he sure wrecked Vader's
Foolish men mistake transitory semblance for eternal fact
Practice makes perfect, so be careful what you practice
Tolerance is for people who lack moral conviction
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janstett
Registered:
May '04
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Date Posted:
3/24 4:10pm
Subject:
RE: What plotline, character or scene in the entire Saga irritates you the most?
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raythemanf posted:
If you did not have the mediclorians mentioned in TPM I think you would wonder why the hell they care about this little kid. It wouldn't make much sense and wouldn't give anakin that presence of being the "special" one. I thought it was brilliant of Lucas and it really made me listen. It was cool to hear it explained and thats all I can ask for.
They could have pulled a page from other legends like King Arthur being the only one who could remove Excalibur from the stone. Maybe a light saber only the Chosen One could ignite.
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