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Author	Topic: The Phantom Menace - What does it add to the Saga?
SithStarSlayer Registered: Oct '03	Date Posted: 3/11 10:51am Subject: RE: The Phantom Menace - What does it add to the Saga? - Date Edited: 3/11 10:53am (1 edits total) Edited By: SithStarSlayer
	No problem. But at the same time I disagree with your assessment of the quote I posted. Darth Maul, Williams' score, the DOTF and Qui-Gon were welcome editions to the saga in my eyes. The rest of the movie left much to be desired, and I felt the quote covered what I felt for the mostpart, save for leaving out Jinn. I don't respond to every post that I don't agree with, nor do I call out other poster's unless I have a history with them. It seems to me that anyone who doesn't GUSH over Lucas and/or the PT, gets to hear about it moreso than those who do. *** As for the quoted posts between myself, latverian33 and mandragora: Lucas obviously wanted to have Anakin appear as a sweet, innocent boy... otherwise he would have done things differently. I didn't say I liked the direction that Lucas went in, but I understand it... and I too would have preferred an older Anakin. At the end of the day, Lucas wanted everyone to see that Anakin was just a good little boy in the beginning. -----signature----- Lucas didn't ruin my childhood, but he sure wrecked Vader's Foolish men mistake transitory semblance for eternal fact Practice makes perfect, so be careful what you practice Tolerance is for people who lack moral conviction o[[]\|[ooooooooooo]\|[0]\|[\|]\|[
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Vortigern99 Title: Manager Emeritus Registered: Nov '00	Date Posted: 3/11 11:52am Subject: RE: The Phantom Menace - What does it add to the Saga?
	SithStarSlayer posted: Darth Maul, Williams' score, the DOTF and Qui-Gon were welcome editions to the saga in my eyes. The rest of the movie left much to be desired, and I felt the quote covered what I felt for the mostpart, save for leaving out Jinn. Yes, okay. I missed the initital point of the quote, which ended in a hardline excoriation of the PT as "failing and falling hard", as in any way stating what you thought was a worthy addition to the Saga. But now I re-read it, yes, Maul and the Jedi fight are mentioned as being positive aspects of the film. And it's good to know you like Q-G also; certainly those opinions are germaine to this thread. My point is certainly not to shut down debates about the films; that's what we're here for. I just hope we can keep on-topic to each thread; there is, after all, an "Irritating scene" thread here in the Saga Forum which invites discussion from the other end of the spectrum. -----signature----- "I knew from the beginning I was not doing science fiction. I was doing a space opera, a fantasy film, a mythological piece, a fairy tale."--George Lucas My "Vader's Origins" thread: http://boards.theforce.net/Classic_Trilogy/b10002/8708417/p1
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sith_rising Registered: Jan '04	Date Posted: 3/11 4:27pm Subject: RE: The Phantom Menace - What does it add to the Saga?
	Many times you'll hear, "without Maul, TPM would have been truly awful", to which I reply, "imagine TESB without Darth Vader". It would be our heroes running from a bunch of British guys. The villain makes the film, without a doubt. TPM didn't rely on Maul anymore than ROTJ relied on The Emperor. -----signature----- "My mentor taught me everything about the Force, even the nature of the Dark Side"
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Onoto Title: Risk Host Registered: Oct '04	Date Posted: 3/11 8:52pm Subject: RE: The Phantom Menace - What does it add to the Saga?
	I just finished watching it a a little while ago, so I'd like to weigh in. I'll echo previous users in saying that the biggest thing TPM adds is a reference point. I never understood why Luke was so convinced Vader had some good in him (although I gobbled it up because ROTJ was my favorite movie as a little guy), so what TPM does is make it clear that Vader had innocent beginnings, thus making the story of his redemption mean more. It also sets up his downfall with the whole leaving his mother behind bit. I'd also say that it's a fun movie, and that in and of itself should be enough. Maul was a great villain and I just about died from excitement when I saw Obi-Wan Kenobi, my favorite fictional character ever. TPM was far from perfect, but it was made in the spirit of ANH - fun adventure with good guys, bad guys, and laser swords. -----signature----- http://boards.theforce.net/Message.aspx?topic=29007905&brd=10264&replies=0 - I am currently hosting the C&G version of the classic wargame Risk. Stop by and see what's going on!
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Anakin_Darth Registered: Mar '05	Date Posted: 3/11 9:24pm Subject: RE: The Phantom Menace - What does it add to the Saga?
	Qui-Gon Jinn, for me, is one of the best written, acted, and portrayed characters in the Saga. He's the Prequel's version of Old Ben - you can really see where Obi-Wan evolved from a young Padawan, to eventually becoming very similar to Qui-Gon. The Master/Padawan relationship in Episode One is one of my favorites of the entire Saga. I also love how everything that happens in The Phantom Menace, has a great impact on future events. No matter how small something that happens is, it echoes throughout the episodes. Like when Qui-Gon meets Jar Jar - a small event, yes, but not only do the Jedi get led to Anakin with Jar Jar's help, he also provides the Queen an army to take back her planet, and inadvertantly unites two cultures. He's a very wonderful character, whose purpose runs much deeper than most. His scene with Amidala at the end is one of his best.
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Arawn_Fenn Registered: Jul '04	Date Posted: 3/11 9:30pm Subject: RE: The Phantom Menace - What does it add to the Saga?
	And, of course, he also gives us the Empire. -----signature----- The world will look up and shout, "Save us." And I'll whisper: "No". - Rorschach
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Anakin_Darth Registered: Mar '05	Date Posted: 3/12 4:20pm Subject: RE: The Phantom Menace - What does it add to the Saga?
	Exactly - I don't see why Chewie is more respected. He doesn't really DO anything - through Jar Jar, the seeds of most of the events of the Saga unfold, while Chewbacca.....um........growls? Yeah, great contribution there
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Vortigern99 Title: Manager Emeritus Registered: Nov '00	Date Posted: 3/12 5:18pm Subject: RE: The Phantom Menace - What does it add to the Saga? - Date Edited: 3/12 5:19pm (1 edits total) Edited By: Vortigern99
	Though it isn't on-screen -- and though this point is off-topic -- it's always been part of SW lore that Chewie is the one who talked Han into returning to the Battle of Yavin to save Luke's neck. Chewbacca is also intrumental in turning the tide in the ground portion of the Battle of Endor, when his piloting of the AT-ST saves Han and Leia from their predicament and allows Han to disguise himself as an Imperial officer, which wins the bunker. The Wookiee's contribution to saving Han from Jabba should also not be overlooked; and he was also one heck of a ferocious warrior, as seen in several gun-battles with Imperial troops. EDIT: Now back to our regularly-scheduled TPM discussion. -----signature----- "I knew from the beginning I was not doing science fiction. I was doing a space opera, a fantasy film, a mythological piece, a fairy tale."--George Lucas My "Vader's Origins" thread: http://boards.theforce.net/Classic_Trilogy/b10002/8708417/p1
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ShaneP Registered: Mar '01	Date Posted: 3/12 5:40pm Subject: RE: The Phantom Menace - What does it add to the Saga?
	Vortigern it's always been part of SW lore that Chewie is the one who talked Han into returning to the Battle of Yavin to save Luke's neck. You almost get a sense of that when Chewie is whining to Solo when loading the reward loot pre-Yavin battle. You see what happens when someone goes off-topic? Arrghh! What did TPM "add"? It added the starting point. It also added the lighter side to things before the fall. That was important, IMHO. 3 "dark" PT films would've been too much. Now, TPM didn't have to be so light and juvenile, but it is. -----signature----- It was as if a million middle-aged virgins just farted with rage and were suddenly silenced.
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Vortigern99 Title: Manager Emeritus Registered: Nov '00	Date Posted: 3/12 6:09pm Subject: RE: The Phantom Menace - What does it add to the Saga?
	For me TPM added a number of extra layers of meaning and understanding to the Saga. Anakin was not a Voldemort-like "bad seed" who tortured animals and resented his lot in life. Rather, he was an altruistic child who wanted to use his enormous potential to help people in need. It's fascinating to contemplate the iron-fisted sorcerer-general of the OT as having once been a bright-eyed wunderkind. Also, as mandragora said above, the film depicts the Jedi as a remote organization, out of touch with true human suffering and the need for love relationships. This blind eye of the Jedi comes to full, doomed fruition in the next two films, but in TPM we're given our first understated glimpse that the Jedi are too stringent and unfeeling, even going so far as to chastise a 9-year-old boy for missing his mother, with whom he has spent his entire life and whom he shall never see again. Clearly this is an overly-legalistic entity in need of change. -----signature----- "I knew from the beginning I was not doing science fiction. I was doing a space opera, a fantasy film, a mythological piece, a fairy tale."--George Lucas My "Vader's Origins" thread: http://boards.theforce.net/Classic_Trilogy/b10002/8708417/p1
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Chiss_Insight Registered: Jun '06	Date Posted: 3/13 1:04pm Subject: RE: The Phantom Menace - What does it add to the Saga?
	I like that this thread (for the most part), has remained very civil. First off, when the teaser for TPM broke on TV, a buddy of mine recorded it. He played it for me, and I sat there, slack-jawed. I said simply, "One more time, please." To keep this on topic, the first thing that TPM added was MORE saga. We were going back to that universe that had changed the way that I saw entertainment and permeated every idea about fantasy and story telling. That teaser still gives me chills every time I see it. There is so much from that alone. We were going to get to see a young Obi, the pre-Empire universe, and even get to know more about the angry man in the iron lung. Flash forward to today. I have respect for TPM and its place in the saga. What I really like is that it represents Palpatine's first real act of planetary manipulation. He is kind of like Brando in Apocalypse Now; his presence is in every scene because the Naboo conflict is his doing. Everyone involved, down to Obi and Qui Gon, are pawns for his game of power acquisition. I respect TPM because Lucas could have given in and done 30 minutes on Anakin and then turned him into Vader and it's Episodes 3.7, 3.8, and 3.9 for the prequels. It's gutsy to take the scariest villain in screen history and show his childhood. I also enjoyed all of the things that we got to see: Jedi in their prime, the Jedi Temple, young Obi, the Senate, etc. I know this thread is not about bashing/reviewing TPM, but I truly feel that it has all the making of a GREAT SW movie; it is just the victim of a few key bad choices that weakened the film. Overall, I will never for get the experience of going to see it, or what it meant to me at the time.
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YYZ-2112 Registered: Sep '04	Date Posted: 3/13 2:15pm Subject: RE: The Phantom Menace - What does it add to the Saga? - Date Edited: 3/13 2:28pm (2 edits total) Edited By: YYZ-2112
	The most important things that The Phantom Menace adds to the story of the Star Wars are also the things that the entire saga is hinged together by. It gives the motivation of the Emperor to find a new successor outside of the standard secret Sith way. Palpatine had to convert a Jedi rather than raise a Sith. That threw a monkey wrench into his perfectly tuned machine; ie his plan for domination. Also when he meets Anakin after having lost his prize apprentice in Darth Maul; he sees a much greater potential than the Jedi do and that sets up his thirteen year plan for the creation of Darth Vader. TPM also gives us the primary psuedo-enemy of the Republic which directly contributes to the authorisation of the clone army. This clone army being the main instrument of the Sith take over of Republic control and the Galactic Civil War. TPM also shows us the good natured and humble beginnings of Anakin Skywalker. When AOTC comes along, much of that is gone. This demonstrates that it took ten years of hard nosed Jedi discipline and the reckless ego coaxing of Palpatine to create a volotile and unpredictable personality in Anakin. Unlike Luke, who's origins are much the same but had niether influence until young adulthood. By seeing the character transform between films gives us that crucial insight. If the series starts off with AOTC; that part of Anakin's character is lost and his redemption sceptical. Because we as the audience might think he was always that way, even in his youth. TPM gives us the image of what a Sith Lord represents. We see this in Darth Maul as well as the shadowy Sidious who is the Phantom Menace himself. Darth Maul represents the personification of what we see as evil. He is both bold and diabolical and acts without fear in the face of vast opposition. Sidious represents the evil that hides behind a smiling face; giving false hope and betraying all who stand in his way. We don't fully realise this until we learn that Palpatine and the 'menace' are one and the same. What we do know for sure from the very early scenes in the film, is that Sidious is coodinating his plans through the Trade Federation and we get the sense that no matter how many enemies the Jedi may dispatch, the real menace may never be located and that gives Sidious the illusion of total control over his schemes. If we begin the Series with AOTC, we'd barely see any connection to the development of the Empire through Sidious. He wouldn't be introduced to us until the last scenes of AOTC. Also we'd never see that Dooku was a fall guy for the rise of Darth Vader. TPM also shows us that Anakin became a Jedi outside the normal avenues of detachment. His bond to his mother made him unique in many respects, because generally the Jedi had no memory or attachments of their former lives. Also his extremely high potential (even greater than Yoda's) gives him as well as Luke greater relevence to the salvation of the Galaxy in the OT. From what we learn in TPM, Vader and his children have the highest potential force power in the Galaxy. This makes the motivations of all the characters involved in the OT make sense. Luke and Leia really were the last hope for the rebellion, because no others could ever stand toe to toe with Vader, and their family ties made them the only ones who could bring him back to the good side. Though in all fairness, the family ties portion of that argument really is a credit of ROTS not TPM, but the relevence is there. Padme could have reached Vader, but she lacked the skill in the force to spar with Vader long enough to bring him to reason. And although Yoda and Obi Wan could have (and did) hold their own against Vader's skill; only his family could have reached his soul. TPM ties in to the spectral image of Anakin Skywalker in his last scene in Return of the Jedi. As a ghost, or one who has retained his image, he is wearing a tan/white robe similar to his humble origins as well as the Jedi Masters Qui Gon and Obi Wan who tried to teach him correctly. This represents that he has returned to the kind of Jedi he would have been, had Sidious not infiltrated his mind and manipulated his ego. AOTC and ROTS both show a gradual darkening of his clothing; which is synonimous to his internal corruption. It's there in the open, yet no one seems to notice the connection to his turning and the relationship to Palpatine. If he had never known Sidious, Anakin would have been like the Jedi we see in his ghostly form. At the very least, this is the kind of Jedi he himself would have liked to become, even from as a young boy on Tatooine, and so it becomes his self image. If the series began with AOTC, that connection would be lost and the image confusing Most importantly, TPM gives us the circumstances by which a newly knighted and inexperienced Jedi becomes the sole instructor for Anakin Skywalker. Nearly the entire breadth of the film builds this situation up to show that if Anakin had not been trained or that if Qui Gon and/or Darth Maul had lived or if the Jedi Council had made an exception to train Anakin within the temple; Anakin may not have developed the way he had. Finally, TPM gives us Qui Gon Jin. He is a character who is obviously a good guy from the moment we are introduced to him. Yet later we discover that he opposes much of the institutional aspects of the Jedi Order. But he follows orders and honors his allies to the best of his ability. We also see him die but he does not vannish like Old Ben and Yoda do later in the series. This contributes to the fact that what Ben does in Episode Four is new to not only the Jedi but particularly to Vader and this adds a new dimension to Vader's quest for power and purpose throughout the series. And when we learn that Qui Gon, despite leaving his flesh behind, returns from the nether; we understand how Anakin could've done it as well. What occurs in TPM is the cornerstone of just about everything that happens in the series afterwards. -----signature----- "You were right about one thing Master. The negotiations WERE short." "Story is about principles, not rules. Anxious, inexperienced writers obey rules. Rebellious, unschooled writers break rules. Artists master the form." Robert McKee
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Hoaxer_Poker Registered: Mar '08	Date Posted: 3/14 10:15am Subject: RE: The Phantom Menace - What does it add to the Saga? - Date Edited: 3/14 10:27am (1 edits total) Edited By: Hoaxer_Poker
	I have to say, I've really, really warmed up to the PT as a whole. Though, I still have a hate/love affair with Attack of the clones. But I've always been a big fan of The Phantom Menace, despite a few imperfections here and there. As for what it adds to the saga, not sure. It definately adds two of my favorite SW characters of all time: Darth Maul and Qui Gon Jin. Furthermore it expands the SW universe, making it bigger and bigger, with new, interesting species, yet keeping it a family affair. It also put a whole new spin on the lightsabre battles, making it less conversational and a lot more energetic and rhythmic. The Jedi Council is also a very interesting contribution, whether you agree with it or not. And it arguably contains John William's best SW score. Apart from all that, I believe it's one of the best looking films in the saga. It's just absolutely beautiful if you're willing to go with it, even if you don't agree with the script or story.
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Darth-Stryphe Title: Saga Manager Registered: Apr '01	Date Posted: 3/14 8:31pm Subject: RE: The Phantom Menace - What does it add to the Saga?
	I'm trying to think of what TPM added uniquely that wasn't also, in some way, added by either AOTC and/or ROTS, and I'm hard pressed. We get to see the Senate, the old Jedi and the inner workings or the Republic, and some insight onto how Palpatine started grabbing power. But doesn't that also describe the other two as well? Now, there are things I liked better about TPM than either other prequel, but that's not what's being asked here. In the end, I would have to say it added a new tone and direction to the Saga. And it added lightness to an otherwise dark trilogy. -----signature----- Lord of the Script, it's FABULOUSO: http://boards.theforce.net/Star_Wars_Community/b10012/8237772/p1 The Desperate Road: http://boards.theforce.net/your_jedi_council_community/b10008/23481819/p1 I love you, lonely Dewback on the ridge Az Isten áldjon meg!
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DARTH_BELO Registered: Nov '03	Date Posted: 3/19 10:43am Subject: RE: The Phantom Menace - What does it add to the Saga?
	I think it was a great place to start the saga. It is placed at a point when the republic first starts to be "noticeably" crumbling. (I'm sure it started before that point, but here is where the Republic's fall reached its crucial point.) It introduced Anakin. I think it's important that we see him as a little boy-learn of his power, innocence, origins, etc. It helps us properly see his good side-something that could not have been done if he was first introduced in AOTC. I am one who loves the plot line of the whole "chosen one" thing. It adds SO much depth/dramatic emotion to the end of ROTJ, as well as the rest of the episodes..."You were the chosen one!" The irony is great-"bring balance to the force, not leave it in darkness!" This adds so much to the despair of Anakin's turn to the darkside, and how it affects the whole Galaxy. There are a number of little things as well. We see how Obi-Wan grows as a Padawan/Jedi...Also, the origins of C-3P0 and R-2 (I know we don't see where R-2's creation, but we know R-2 worked for the queen on Naboo.) Also, it sets the stage for Padme's relationship with Palpatine, and shows how manipulative he is RIGHT from the subtle beginnings of it all. There's also a lot of little continuity things here and there as well, that help remind us we're still in the same Galaxy-it's just a different point in time. The overall feeling I get from TPM is, The Galaxy as a whole is relatively at peace, but the Senate/Republic is becoming more and more corrupt, with outrageous things happening and not being fixed, like the Trade Federation invasion of Naboo. It's the first examples that things are starting to fall, but still talked about only as a whisper-Only those truly in-tune with the inner goings on can see problems...The Jedi are at the height of their time, believing that there are no Sith-the Force is at peace-but of course they first find out that is not true...Meanwhile the Chosen One is discovered, and we see the origins of the good Anakin Skywalker. So, all in all, I think TPM is a great starting point for the fall of the Republic, the emergence of the Jedis' awareness of the Sith, and the discovery of the Chosen One-basically a glimpse of how things were before all the war and fighting...After all, GL always says its really "Anakin's story," so why not start at the beginning of his tale? -----signature----- There are NO trilogies - only ONE SAGA...
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