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Topic:
The Phantom Menace - What does it add to the Saga?
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Anakin_Darth
Registered:
Mar '05
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Date Posted:
3/19 2:07pm
Subject:
RE: The Phantom Menace - What does it add to the Saga?
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YYZ - 2112 , that was, by far, one of the most entertaining and insightful explainations of the grandiose elements of The Phantom Menace. I'd love to hear what you think of Jar Jar, his role in TPM, and his contributions to the Saga. 
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YYZ-2112
Registered:
Sep '04
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Date Posted:
3/19 9:39pm
Subject:
RE: The Phantom Menace - What does it add to the Saga?
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Anakin_Darth, personally I found Jar Jar to be little more than a distraction. That may be harsh words but as a supporting character, he didn't do much to help reveal elements of the main characters around him. I don't hate Jar Jar and on a few of his antics I laughed a little bit but mostly I was tired of the over acting Chaplin wanna-be routine. I think the role of 'local fool' could have worked if he had been dim-witted or even a victim of his own need to eat. But making him a clumsy character just didn't work for me. I don't know if you've ever seen the film 'Made'. It stars Pater Falk, Jon Favrea and Vince Vaughn and is a perfect example of how to have a supporting character annow as well as entertain the audience at the expense of the main character. In a nutshell John is trying to do a job for a made guy and Vince is the idiot sidekick who although likeable and loyal is a complete wreck of a choice to do a job with. Jar Jar could have been an excellent character with this type of supporting role and it would have played perfectly against the serious minded and sensible Jedi. That being said I can tolerate him in all his scenes except the juggling act in Watto's shop. I can even deal with him on the final battle field except his appointment to General is pretty far fetched.
Visually, he was interesting to look at but then also suffered as a character because he was digitally rendered. Since the technology was new, it was hard to embrace a character who we knew wasn't even there on the screen during filming. Atleast with Chewie, we knew he was part of the live acting and so his antics and bahavior played off the other actors. Coupled with the fact that his actions were much more in line with the kind of character Han would be travelling with, this made him believable.
I think Jar Jar would have been better served as a character if his behavior had a more crucial impact to the events around him. For example, lets say the only way Qui Gon can get the parts he needs for the ship is that he attend a dinner at Jabba's palace where he muct remain incognito. This would provide an excellent way for Jar Jar to create a nightmare of a situation for Qui Gon which lets the audience laugh at Qui Gon's expense. But primarily his actions are window dressing and the times he is used effectivelly against Qui Gon or Padme, there's no one in the area who cares one way or the other.
Now granted, a fully digital character who has as much screen time as Jar Jar must have been a complicated undertaking and so I can't really blame Lucas for trying something new. Because hey let's face it; it could have worked beautifully. And for some people it did. The genius of Jar Jar though is that his role exists in between the gaps of the other characters. What I mean is, for nearly all of his screen time, he could be edited into a different kind of character and it wouldn't affect the film or the characters around him. This leaves Lucas a lot of room for editing if he chooses to do so and this may be why his role was written the way it was.
Anyway, I don't hate Jar Jar and he does make a pretty good fall guy for Episode 2, even if his part in that film could have been played by just about anyone else; I just didn't think he was a very important element for the Saga, which is why I didn't mention him in the previous post. In all fairness though, I think his character was written for the youngest of audience members because the film does have a lot to develop and throwing in a bit of slapstick here and there may have helped to keep their attention. I often wonder though, if the role would have worked better using a live actor instead of a digitally rendered one.
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"You were right about one thing Master. The negotiations WERE short."
"Story is about principles, not rules. Anxious, inexperienced writers obey rules. Rebellious, unschooled writers break rules. Artists master the form." Robert McKee
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mandragora
Registered:
May '05
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Date Posted:
3/20 2:26am
Subject:
RE: The Phantom Menace - What does it add to the Saga?
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I really think Lucas gave away a lot of potential with Jar-Jar. The character was apparently intended as "the wise fool", as exemplified by his two prophetic pieces of dialogue in TPM (one mentioning the possibility of getting banished because of being clumsy to the Jedi, the other one in the bongo where he describes the state of the Jedi order one film later - "monsters out there, leaking in here, all sinking and no power").
But regrettably that didn't work out nearly as well as it could have. Instead of developing Jar-Jar into the wise fool character, Lucas enthusiasm for the innovative CGI completely overwhelmed the purpose this character could have served. Jar-Jar was seriously overused and my suspicion is that as a result his role was greatly reduced in AOTC and all but written out in ROTS. So unfortunately we'll never know what the original intent was for Jar-Jar and what his role could have been.
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“Whoever fights monsters should see to it that in the process he does not become a monster. And if you gaze long enough into an abyss, the abyss will gaze back into you.” —Friedrich Nietzsche
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DARTH_BELO
Registered:
Nov '03
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Date Posted:
3/20 10:24am
Subject:
RE: The Phantom Menace - What does it add to the Saga?
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That's my opinion as well...I think Jar Jar could have had a much more effective part-maybe even a bit more "serious" and just without all the slapstick, he could have actually been quite enjoyable as a supporting character.
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There are NO trilogies - only ONE SAGA...
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Vortigern99
Title: Manager Emeritus
Registered:
Nov '00
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Date Posted:
3/20 2:41pm
Subject:
RE: The Phantom Menace - What does it add to the Saga?
- Date Edited:
3/20 2:45pm (2 edits total)
Edited By:
Vortigern99
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This is just a quick reminder to everyone that this thread is about what TPM adds to the Saga, not what it fails to achieve or what its missed opportunities might be. There are threads in the PT Forum for that; or, if you want to stay in Saga Forum and discuss them, there's the Strengths and Weaknesses thread , which calls for balanced and reasoned discussion like the kind you guys are engaging in about Jar-Jar.
-----signature-----
"I knew from the beginning I was not doing science fiction.
I was doing a space opera, a fantasy film, a mythological piece,
a fairy tale."--George Lucas
My "Vader's Origins" thread:
http://boards.theforce.net/Classic_Trilogy/b10002/8708417/p1
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Arawn_Fenn
Registered:
Jul '04
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Date Posted:
3/20 3:29pm
Subject:
RE: The Phantom Menace - What does it add to the Saga?
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The introduction of the theme of symbiosis is important. Notably, TPM is the only film in the saga to refer to a life-debt.
-----signature-----
The world will look up and shout, "Save us." And I'll whisper: "No". - Rorschach
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FirBholg
Registered:
May '02
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Date Posted:
3/20 8:32pm
Subject:
RE: The Phantom Menace - What does it add to the Saga?
- Date Edited:
3/20 8:35pm (1 edits total)
Edited By:
FirBholg
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For me, TPM offered many insights into the saga. It begins showing us what Jedi actually did, before the Clone Wars. Qui Gonn and Obi Wan are on a mission the expect to be routine, even "trivial".
We see planetary royalty looking like and acting as royalty. Princess Leia had no real opportunity to be much of a princess on-screen, save perhaps in the award ceremony in ANH.
Anakin's origins are vitally important, in providing a context to Luke's origins in the OT. It shows us also the limits of Republic influence while the Republic was at its height - with Tattooine existing outside Republic control.
We are shown the Galactic Senate, and what a senator does, at a time before this is being subsumed under the more direct control of the Chancellorship.
In all, TPM establishes the ground for the development of the saga, and gives us our best look at what the Republic was and how it was intended to operate, before Palpatine unfolded his grand design.
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"I have waited a long time for this, my little green friend."
F.I.G.S.
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janstett
Registered:
May '04
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Date Posted:
3/24 3:17pm
Subject:
RE: The Phantom Menace - What does it add to the Saga?
- Date Edited:
3/24 3:26pm (1 edits total)
Edited By:
janstett
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The Republic-era GFFA was in line with what I imagined.
I was shocked with how clinical and cold the Jedi were. We had very little clue about the young age Jedi were indoctrinated, based on Yoda calling Luke too old. But I don't think anyone knew they took small children away from their parents for life.
I really didn't like the Mitichlorian explanation. That still irks me.
I was shocked to find Anakin was a slave boy with no father. I really didn't expect that. I didn't expect he came from Tatooine either.
Also shocked at how weak and complacent the Republic and the Jedi were.
Finally, when you think of it, TPM is a microcosm of the saga. It is a failed prototype of Palpatine's plan, which he pretty much repeats on a larger scale 10 years later.
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janstett
Registered:
May '04
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Date Posted:
3/24 3:19pm
Subject:
RE: The Phantom Menace - What does it add to the Saga?
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Chiss_Insight posted:
Flash forward to today. I have respect for TPM and its place in the saga. What I really like is that it represents Palpatine's first real act of planetary manipulation. He is kind of like Brando in Apocalypse Now; his presence is in every scene because the Naboo conflict is his doing. Everyone involved, down to Obi and Qui Gon, are pawns for his game of power acquisition.
When he spill the beans to Luke in ROTJ, "Everything that has transpired has done so by MY design", he really means literally EVERYTHING in the saga.
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janstett
Registered:
May '04
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Date Posted:
3/24 3:40pm
Subject:
RE: The Phantom Menace - What does it add to the Saga?
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YYZ-2112 posted:
In all fairness though, I think his character was written for the youngest of audience members because the film does have a lot to develop and throwing in a bit of slapstick here and there may have helped to keep their attention. I often wonder though, if the role would have worked better using a live actor instead of a digitally rendered one.
I don't know how many of you guys are car guys or watch "Top Gear", but there's this over-the-top buffoon Jeremy Clarkson who reviews cars with humor and wit. He obviously knows the underlying tech but doesn't saddle viewers with it, referring to "horsepowers" and "torques" and internals as being "magic".
One time he reviewed a car with actual technical jargon, but to avoid losing people's attention who weren't into it, he did a split screen with kittens playing with a ball of string.
That's Jar-Jar.
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obi1jedinite
Registered:
Oct '02
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Date Posted:
3/24 4:54pm
Subject:
RE: The Phantom Menace - What does it add to the Saga?
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I love that it starts the saga on such a relatively happy note. If you had never watched Star Wars before, think of how much things would change for you as the films went along. TPM starts the series as a happy, fun, almost (IMO) kiddie way, with our main hero being a 9 year old boy. Think of the surprise felt by someone who then would see ROTS for the first time, where suddenly this hero is hacking people to death, killing children and strangling his wife. The brightness in TPM helps highlight the darkness in the rest of much of the saga. I don't agree with all of Lucas' choices, and I think that a movie can still be lighthearted without being as kiddie and sugary as I feel TPM sometimes is, but thats just my personal preference. I still appreciate the unique way the story begins.
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Chicago Cubs: 2008 World Series Champions  "Anakin is the father, isn't he? I'm so sorry." Why so serious? 07.18.08
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drg4
Registered:
Jul '05
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Date Posted:
3/24 6:09pm
Subject:
RE: The Phantom Menace - What does it add to the Saga?
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It was the first SW flick to boast an actual plot—-which was downright revelatory at the time, seeing as how two of the three originals used the bloody Death Star as a crux. Everyone understands the OT narratives—-therein lies their appeal—-but viewers have to wade a bit in order to appreciate this film’s vicious, vicious undertow. An atypically provocative popcorn picture, that one.
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Darth-Seldon
Registered:
May '03
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Date Posted:
5/21 7:41pm
Subject:
RE: The Phantom Menace - What does it add to the Saga?
- Date Edited:
5/21 7:42pm (2 edits total)
Edited By:
Darth-Seldon
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"Menace" is that primeval garden of eden, before evil is introduced. It is the state of innocence before the corruption. In terms of the saga, it is the necessary preface to the six films which establishes the concepts, introduces the characters, and begins the major conflicts. This is where it all begins.
-Seldon
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Isaac Asimov was an innovative genius All posters are equal but some posters are more equal than others. Barack Obama & Joe Biden 2008 
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Juan-King
Registered:
Jul '04
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Date Posted:
5/22 7:48am
Subject:
RE: The Phantom Menace - What does it add to the Saga?
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Darth-Seldon posted:
"Menace" is that primeval garden of eden, before evil is introduced. It is the state of innocence before the corruption. In terms of the saga, it is the necessary preface to the six films which establishes the concepts, introduces the characters, and begins the major conflicts. This is where it all begins.
-Seldon
can't see that myself , even before the movie begins the galaxy is in turmoil .
The senate is corrupt , naboo is invaded , Tatooine has slavery .
doesn't sound like the garden of eden to me.
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Everybody loves Juan King
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Darth-Seldon
Registered:
May '03
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Date Posted:
5/22 8:04am
Subject:
RE: The Phantom Menace - What does it add to the Saga?
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The garden of eden is perhaps hyperbole. In relative terms, by comparison is it is a rather innocent time. There are darker realities--government corruption for example...but this is really the beginning of the end. One could argue that the elevation of Palpatine to power is the temptation of evil--the rise of the devil.
I'm not must of a theology theorist. I'm just saying that it shows the introduction of evil.
-Seldon
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Isaac Asimov was an innovative genius All posters are equal but some posters are more equal than others. Barack Obama & Joe Biden 2008
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