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Topic:
PT is cynical, negative and morally ambiguous; OT is positive, hopeful and morally absolute
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DRush76
Registered:
Jan '08
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Date Posted:
5/27 10:21pm
Subject:
RE: PT is cynical, negative and morally ambiguous; OT is positive, hopeful and morally absolute
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In closing, I find the jedi's lack of action in TPM and their indifferent attitude about the sith and the invasion of Naboo a little strange and it just seem like the jedi are just lazy. This makes them seem uncaring and a little slow.
Sounds like the Jedi simply became a victim of their own complacency. But I don't think the PT was the first time that the Jedi were shown as flawed. I think they were also shown as flawed in ROTJ.
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evenstarr
Registered:
Jun '03
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Date Posted:
6/20 5:37am
Subject:
RE: PT is cynical, negative and morally ambiguous; OT is positive, hopeful and morally absolute
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I don't think the PT is negative, cynical or morally ambiguous and neither that the original trilogy is morally absolute.
what the original trilogy had that the prequel didn't were clearly identifiable sides.
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GrandAdmiral_Frank
Registered:
Aug '03
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Date Posted:
7/4 11:44pm
Subject:
RE: PT is cynical, negative and morally ambiguous; OT is positive, hopeful and morally absolute
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Look...the prequels show us the story of how Vader fell. If it is a tragedy why should it have the tone of the Originals?
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Darky5K
Registered:
Mar '08
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Date Posted:
7/9 4:51pm
Subject:
RE: PT is cynical, negative and morally ambiguous; OT is positive, hopeful and morally absolute
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The way I see it, the Republic Senate was so corrupt that evil of course flourished. We see this in reality. Then when it becomes totaltarian like the Empire, just like real life, old enemies become allies and amends are made. Happens every time in history.
Things get stagnant, look at our own government. As long as there is corruption, it will be stagnant. The Jedi, however, were bound by their codes and laws to obey the Republic, despite what harsh feelings and mistrust they harbored against most Senators. In a way, Palpatine served as a non-intentional hero here, by making it so bad, everyone just had to band together and throw out all of the corruption
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DRush76
Registered:
Jan '08
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Date Posted:
7/11 12:06pm
Subject:
RE: PT is cynical, negative and morally ambiguous; OT is positive, hopeful and morally absolute
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The jedi's lack of action with regards to the clones does makes them stupid in my book.
That simply made them more interesting to me. If Lucas had portrayed the Jedi as they all-wise, perfect beings who were simply destroyed by an external force, I would have found the story rather one-dimensional and slightly childish.
Thankfully, Lucas remembered the old adage that a person's biggest enemy is him or herself. The Jedi were their biggest enemy. Which makes sense to me that Palpatine was finally able to defeat them due to their own flaws.
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Nordom
Registered:
Jun '04
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Date Posted:
7/11 3:15pm
Subject:
RE: PT is cynical, negative and morally ambiguous; OT is positive, hopeful and morally absolute
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DRush76 posted:
That simply made them more interesting to me. If Lucas had portrayed the Jedi as they all-wise, perfect beings who were simply destroyed by an external force, I would have found the story rather one-dimensional and slightly childish.
Who said anything about all-wise or perfect? Reasonably competent would do fine.
Also having the jedi being clueless dimwits did not make them interesting to me. Instead it seemed an easy way to get the plot to move forward.
One thing that often annoy me is when people of otherwise normal inteligence suddenly and for no apparent reason become quite stupid in order for the plot to work.
There was a book series that I read several years ago and in it almost all the villains were incredibly stupid, they had great power but the heroes could outwit them extremly easy.
This made the story loose a lot of drama and tension because the villains were such push overs and the heroes were just having a laugh at how dumb the villains were.
Also why would the story be one dimensional or childish if the jedi were at least somewhat comptetent? That way Palpatine had to actually be clever and come up with a brilliant plan in order to defeat the jedi as opposed to the bumbling dimwits he faced now.
In the OT the empire sure has some people that were none too bright but they are not all dimwits. So the heroes has too struggle to defeat the empire and this makes the struggle dramatic.
Take the movie Spartacus, there a group of slaves revolt against their masters and they fight well but in the end they loose. But they do not loose becasue they are total dimwits, the enemy simply was too powerfull and too crafty.
Or take the movie Battlefield Earth, there the villains are to a man total retards and act with such stupidity that the whole thing becomes a joke and a bad one at that.
To me a story looses dramatic punch if one side is made into dimwits in order for the other side to win and in this case it makes it hard for me to feel very sorry for the jedi as they get wiped out because of their own stupidity.
The jedi could have been flawed in other ways than just being dumb and that could have made them interesting characters and give Palpatine weapons to use against them.
Regards
Nordom
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Dark--Helmet
Registered:
Apr '03
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Date Posted:
7/12 12:29pm
Subject:
RE: PT is cynical, negative and morally ambiguous; OT is positive, hopeful and morally absolute
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I'll disagree with the op,other then a few throw away lines,it's pretty much business as usual in the SW universe.Satan and his demon,his black knight and Chris Lee all wear dark clothing,have red lightsabers and do bad things.For all the Jedi's faults there not going to crush the universe under there boot.There not going around starting fake wars,blowing up planets,killing people left and right,torturing people and cackling and laughting about death and destruction.
I agree that Anakin comes of not very heroic but I think that was more of a miss fire by GL.Jake's Anakin was but it's Hayden's Anakin who come off looking awful.
Obi taking out The General seems fine to me.It's a battle in a war and after he beats him he's not standing over him gloating or laughing(same with Maul).He's trying to capture Jango not kill him.He seems pretty sad about Anakin not cold and heartless.
Mace and the Jedi are like police officers,Jango and the Seps fired first,Mace then defended himself.But I do agree the Jedi do come off a little to cold and dumb but I think that's more of a miss fire by GL.
After reading more of the EU,alot of the ideas that show up there do make the films more ambiguous.
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"If someone doesn't like AOTC I really question their taste in film at all."-Funniest post of 08
Total number of George Lucas's small,hobby,esoteric,noncommercial ,nonlinear,experimental art house movies that no one wants to see,0 and counting.
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DRush76
Registered:
Jan '08
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Date Posted:
7/13 11:23am
Subject:
RE: PT is cynical, negative and morally ambiguous; OT is positive, hopeful and morally absolute
- Date Edited:
7/13 11:24am (1 edits total)
Edited By:
DRush76
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But in the PT, Obi-Wan does a damn fine job as Anakin's mentor, while the rest of the Jedi order screws things up (particularly Mr. Mace "Being a jerk to the most powerful Jedi in the order will NEVER come back to bite me on the ass" Windu).
I don't think that Obi-Wan did a damn fine job as Anakin's mentor. I don't he did a good job, period. He reminded me of a parent or teacher with a tendency to be overcritical . . . to the point that he undermines the student's sense of self. I'm not saying that Obi-Wan should have patted Anakin on the back and feed his ego like Palpatine did. But I think that Obi-Wan went to the opposite extereme and was too critical and allowed his own ego regarding his experience and age to make him such a poor teacher to Anakin.
As for Mace being a jerk to Anakin, are you referring to the scene in which Anakin lost his temper over not being given the title of Master in ROTS? Because I think that Mace was right to be "a jerk". Anakin was acting like a brat. Even the look on Obi-Wan's face seemed to hint that he believed that Mace did the right thing.
When Mace first met Anakin, he didn't believe that Anakin was the Chosen One. Neither did Obi-Wan, Yoda or the rest of the Jedi Council. By AOTC, I don't know how Mace and Yoda felt about the Chosen One title. But Mace seemed surprised that Obi-Wan continued to express disbelief in the prophecy. He even lectured Obi-Wan about the latter opening his mind to the possibility. By ROTS, not one member on the Jedi Council believed in the prophecy, except for Obi-Wan. To be honest, I don't if Obi-Wan started to believe in the prophecy. But he certainly seemed surprised by Yoda and Mace's open disbelief. And he also noticed that both Jedi Masters seemed to have no faith in Anakin.
Look...the prequels show us the story of how Vader fell. If it is a tragedy why should it have the tone of the Originals?
I never understood why many of the SW fans had expected the PT to have the same tone as the OT.
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DRush76
Registered:
Jan '08
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Date Posted:
9/16 8:17am
Subject:
RE: PT is cynical, negative and morally ambiguous; OT is positive, hopeful and morally absolute
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Who said anything about all-wise or perfect? Reasonably competent would do fine.
They were reasonably competent. They also possessed flaws that blinded them to what was going on . . . until it was too late. The Jedi became victims of their own success and flaws. This is nothing new.
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1000Faces
Registered:
Sep '07
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Date Posted:
9/30 11:32am
Subject:
RE: PT is cynical, negative and morally ambiguous; OT is positive, hopeful and morally absolute
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Obviously the PT is darker in tone, but I disagree strongly with the description of it as 'cynical' ad the suggestion of what Star Wars is 'supposed to be'. The OT tells the mythic story of the successful hero, the PT the other side of the coin. Both of these are foun in Joseph Campell's source material and I think both stories were worth telling.
I also strongly disagree about the supposed relative heroism of the characters. I think that Kenobi, Padme, Yoda, Mace Qui Gon and Anakin are all heroic, but face more diffcult moral ambiguities in the PT. OTOH you have criminals and scoundrels in Han and Lando in the OT. Han is surely at least as ruthless as anyone in the PT when he blasts Greedo (at least before this sequence was Disneyfied). Han als shows his mercenary instincts in much of the saga. Lando hands his supposed friends over to the Empire in an act of betrayal that gets his supposed buddy tortured, frozen and handed over to a gangster seeking revenge. Positive and uplifting stuff? Luke comes extremely close to turning to the dark side as well.
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DRush76
Registered:
Jan '08
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Date Posted:
10/1 11:35am
Subject:
RE: PT is cynical, negative and morally ambiguous; OT is positive, hopeful and morally absolute
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No long unsupervised talks with Politicians; trained by Obi-Wan is fine, but overseen on a regular basis by all of the Jedi; no trips off with beautiful women to guard them in their homes alone, while young, after having expressed an irresistible interest in them; heavy duty assistance when they come to you with a problem (like attachments!); heavy duty assistance when it is known they are growning arrogant and have BIG - no - GIGANTIC problems controling their anger.
I think that allowing Obi-Wan to train Anakin was one of the Jedi's worst mistakes. Obi-Wan was not emotionally or temperamentally suited to train someone like Anakin.
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Master_Starwalker
Registered:
Sep '03
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Date Posted:
10/1 10:12pm
Subject:
RE: PT is cynical, negative and morally ambiguous; OT is positive, hopeful and morally absolute
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DRush76 posted:
But in the PT, Obi-Wan does a damn fine job as Anakin's mentor, while the rest of the Jedi order screws things up (particularly Mr. Mace "Being a jerk to the most powerful Jedi in the order will NEVER come back to bite me on the ass" Windu).
I don't think that Obi-Wan did a damn fine job as Anakin's mentor. I don't he did a good job, period. He reminded me of a parent or teacher with a tendency to be overcritical . . . to the point that he undermines the student's sense of self. I'm not saying that Obi-Wan should have patted Anakin on the back and feed his ego like Palpatine did. But I think that Obi-Wan went to the opposite extereme and was too critical and allowed his own ego regarding his experience and age to make him such a poor teacher to Anakin.
Anakin seems to have a pretty large ego in AotC, so I don't know why you think Obi-Wan undermined his ego. I mean, Anakin believes he'll be the most powerful Jedi ever. By RotS, he's still got a fairly big ego given that he believes he can overrule the Force itself and stop Padme's death.
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"Surely you must understand that the means are no less important than the ends." - Luke Skywalker
"Creativity is piercing the mundane to find the marvelous." - Bill Moyers
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DRush76
Registered:
Jan '08
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Date Posted:
10/3 6:00pm
Subject:
RE: PT is cynical, negative and morally ambiguous; OT is positive, hopeful and morally absolute
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Han is surely at least as ruthless as anyone in the PT when he blasts Greedo (at least before this sequence was Disneyfied).
If it is important to you that Han is shown to be ruthless, check out the scene on the Death Star, in which he refuses to help Luke rescue Leia. He was not willing to risk his life to save hers . . . until Luke offered money. Frankly, I found that scene more cold-blooded . . . without being so obvious, like the catina scene.
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