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Topic:
Obi-Wan Kenobi: Epistemological Relativist or Manipulative S.O.B.
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Quixotic-Sith
Title: Manager Emeritus
Registered:
Jun '01
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Date Posted:
6/12 2:20pm
Subject:
Obi-Wan Kenobi: Epistemological Relativist or Manipulative S.O.B.
- Date Edited:
6/12 2:21pm (1 edits total)
Edited By:
Quixotic-Sith
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From the makers of "Obi-Wan Kenobi: Idiot Man-Child or Subtle Genius" comes a question of why the hell Luke ultimately joins Obi-Wan in ANH, based on the events presented in the PT.
We all know that Obi-Wan tells Luke that Owen didn't want him going off on some "idealistic, damn-fool crusade like [his] father" (Ep. IV SPOILER: Obi-Wan tells Luke that Owen didn't want him going off on some "idealistic, damn-fool crusade like [his] father"), but the only interaction we saw between Anakin and Owen was him following Padme of to Geonosis in Ep. II (, which (1) wasn't a crusade, and (2) I'm only including the films and film-novelizations).
So, when Obi-Wan tells all this to Luke in Ep. IV is he:
(a) convinced that his own perspective on events justifies his description ("from a certain point of view"), and hence, an epistemological relativist (in which truth and knowledge are dependent upon the individual, culture, or time), OR
(b) a manipulative S.O.B. who knows that Owen and Beru are likely crispy wormfood and/or doesn't care about the truth so long as he gets his way.
Think. Discuss. Is there anything in Ep. II or III to justify Obi-Wan's description?
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You can never have too much precision in your soup.
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JEDIGUNSHIP
Registered:
May '08
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Date Posted:
6/12 2:30pm
Subject:
RE: Obi-Wan Kenobi: Epistemological Relativist or Manipulative S.O.B.
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Woo-hoo! I'm the first one to post on this thread!
Anyway, I think that Owen was trying to keep Luke safe from the rest of the galaxy by making him stay on Tattooine. If Luke went on a "crusade like his father", then he wouldn't be around to help during the harvest season. Obi-Wan didn't want Luke to be going with him for a reason other than learning about the Jedi, which was what the "crusade" was in essence. He did not force Luke to come with him; the Empire took care of that.
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Jedi Knight in the New Jedi Trials/ Commander of Phoenix Squadron in the Rebel Alliance
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DarthBoba
Registered:
Jun '00
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Date Posted:
6/12 3:36pm
Subject:
RE: Obi-Wan Kenobi: Epistemological Relativist or Manipulative S.O.B.
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I think Obi-Wan's saving grace here-besides that George changed his mind, obviously  -is that he doesn't force Luke into coming with him; he doesn't paint him into a corner, like Palpatine did with Anakin. He makes his pitch, and when Luke says no, he's OK with it. He doesn't make it "It's me or the Larses", he accepts that Luke is going to make his own decisions.
Of course, two scenes later, we see that the Force wants Luke to leave Tattooine, too. And unlike Obi-Wan, everything serves the Force. 
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ezekiel22x
Registered:
Aug '02
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Date Posted:
6/12 7:07pm
Subject:
RE: Obi-Wan Kenobi: Epistemological Relativist or Manipulative S.O.B.
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I'd say that Obi-Wan alters his perspective as a means of steering "a new hope" into taking up his mantle. To achieve this he does resort to half-truths (or lies) such as the big one in Vader's identity or the seemingly smaller scale but still essential "Your father wanted you to have this, when you were old enough..." I don't view the damn fool idealistic crusade stuff as directly being a lie or manipulation, however. As stated, Owen could have thought throughout his life that the very notion of being a Jedi was a foolhardy life endeavor. Also, Luke already knows his uncle's narrow mindset places the moisture farm as practically the center of the universe, so I don't think that Obi-Wan is really dropping a bombshell about Owen's personality that is gong to make Luke suddenly turn against his uncle and flee the planet.
The viewer creates his own mileage in terms of relativism, however. In the broad perspective that treats Episode IV as a pivotal act of an escapist-flavored morality tale, Vader and the Empire are evil and Luke has to be good, so whatever gets him to that point doesn't matter so much as long as he becomes the hero that will triumph. Then again, another viewpoint could look at a line of dialogue like "Then the Emperor has already won" and come to the conclusion that Obi-Wan may have been more interested in his own self-prescribed galactic remedy via regicide rather than a more benign, lasting means of furthering the ultimate cause of peace. Personally, I feel that Obi-Wan hadn't yet reached a Chosen One level of new enlightenment, though he did begin to take significant steps in moving away from the misguided resolve that marked the old Jedi Order thanks to decisions like letting Luke be raised to near-adulthood by his surviving family as well as (along with Yoda) letting Luke make his own decision relating to attachment when it comes time to leave Dagobah and head to Cloud City.
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Arawn_Fenn
Registered:
Jul '04
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Date Posted:
6/12 7:38pm
Subject:
RE: Obi-Wan Kenobi: Epistemological Relativist or Manipulative S.O.B.
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>>Obi-Wan may have been more interested in his own self-prescribed galactic remedy via regicide rather than a more benign, lasting means of furthering the ultimate cause of peace.
But that's just it. There is no benign means of furthering the cause of peace when you're dealing with evil on the scale of the Sith. The Jedi know this.
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The world will look up and shout, "Save us." And I'll whisper: "No". - Rorschach
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ezekiel22x
Registered:
Aug '02
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Date Posted:
6/12 8:14pm
Subject:
RE: Obi-Wan Kenobi: Epistemological Relativist or Manipulative S.O.B.
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The Jedi know the Sith must be removed. Luke helps bring this about not by killing his father as ghost Obi-Wan hinted was necessary, but by throwing down his saber. The more "benign" method is to appeal to Vader in such a manner that makes Vader want to grasp onto his humanity and begin to atone for his misdeeds. Luke doesn't destroy the Sith, he brings the Sith to destroy themselves, thus paving the way for his father to "return." From my viewing at least, Kenobi probably didn't have this exact turn of events in mind when first handed Luke a saber.
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Sevb32
Registered:
Dec '07
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Date Posted:
6/12 9:51pm
Subject:
RE: Obi-Wan Kenobi: Epistemological Relativist or Manipulative S.O.B.
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What makes us so sure Kenobi doesn't have words with Owen between EP3 and Ep4? Wookiepedia says this below, and it sounds right.
"A few years later, Kenobi had found Luke and his friend Windy alone in the Jundland Wastes. The two youths had tried to ease their boredom by riding Windy's pet dewback Huey around in the Wastes. They had been thrown in one of the canyons. By dusk, Luke and Windy still hadn't found their way out of the canyon and had been cornered in a cave by a krayt dragon. The dragon ate Huey and would have devoured Luke and Windy had Kenobi not put it in a Force-induced sleep. Kenobi guided them back to the Lars farm, Owen told Luke and his friend to go inside so they would be out of earshot, then he confronted and berated Kenobi.
The reason for Owen's anger was that Kenobi had attempted to give Anakin's lightsaber to Luke, feeling that Luke was old enough and should be allowed to have it. Owen refused to allow it because he believed the Jedi path was a destructive one. He told Kenobi that he didn't want Luke to make the same mistakes Anakin did, saying that he felt Anakin should have never left his mother and gotten involved with the "damn foolish idealistic Jedi crusaders" in the first place. He vehemently told Kenobi to leave and to stay away."
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DarthDuckie
Registered:
Jan '04
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Date Posted:
6/12 9:57pm
Subject:
RE: Obi-Wan Kenobi: Epistemological Relativist or Manipulative S.O.B.
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Although Luke took the "benign" route of throwing down his sabre, the final act which brought peace to the galaxy was far from benign. One man picked up another man and threw him down a ventilation shaft. That's an act of physical violence, but it was the only way that Sidious was ever going to be eliminated.
As to Obiwan, I think he knew only that the key to the whole thing lay in Luke confronting Vader. Beyond that, it was all going to be down to the will of the Force. He manipulated things to achieve that end certainly, but I don't believe he would've forced (pardon the pun) Luke to do anything against his will.
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Apathy is the glove into which evil slips its hand.
-Bodie Theone
A hero is a person who understands the responsibility
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BigBoy29
Registered:
Dec '04
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Date Posted:
6/13 1:06am
Subject:
RE: Obi-Wan Kenobi: Epistemological Relativist or Manipulative S.O.B.
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Kenobi is a manipulative S.O.B.
I learned that in ROTJ --- the old father figure I loved and respected was nothing but a liar ---
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Lando: "She saved me at the Battle of Tannabe".
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Lando: "She was mine before she was yours, she was mine before she was yours ..."
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DarthBoba
Registered:
Jun '00
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Date Posted:
6/13 1:57am
Subject:
RE: Obi-Wan Kenobi: Epistemological Relativist or Manipulative S.O.B.
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Is anyone else curious just why Quixotic blacked out spoilers for Episode IV? 
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Neils Bohr:
prize-winning physicist,
Olympic medalist,
costumed superhero.
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Quixotic-Sith
Title: Manager Emeritus
Registered:
Jun '01
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Date Posted:
6/13 4:25am
Subject:
RE: Obi-Wan Kenobi: Epistemological Relativist or Manipulative S.O.B.
- Date Edited:
6/13 4:25am (1 edits total)
Edited By:
Quixotic-Sith
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DarthBoba posted:
Is anyone else curious just why Quixotic blacked out spoilers for Episode IV?
I'm a man of mystery. I'm like the wind, baby!
The real response is that this thread started in the Prequel Trilogy forum.
-----signature-----
Yeah, mind power, Swede; mind power.
You can never have too much precision in your soup.
Exit, pursued by a bear
More Rockets = More Science
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Vortigern99
Title: Manager Emeritus
Registered:
Nov '00
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Date Posted:
6/13 2:54pm
Subject:
RE: Obi-Wan Kenobi: Epistemological Relativist or Manipulative S.O.B.
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I think Owen's attitude toward Anakin and the Jedi developed off-screen between episodes. Between I and II, Owen came to consider that, if Anakin had remained at his mother's side instead of joining the Jedi at age 10, Anakin would have been sold to Cliegg and subsequently freed. Anakin then would have been available to help Owen and Cliegg with the moisture farm. The tone of his question to Anakin in II, "Where are you going?", seems to indicate that Owen has no understanding of heroism; he is all business, all practicality. Then, between III and IV, as Luke grew up, Owen (I think) came to resent having to raise Luke. If Anakin had stayed with his mother in the first place, and stayed on Tatooine and become a farmer in the second place, Owen would not have had the burden of raising Luke AND he would have had continued help with the farm. Thus Kenobi's description of Owen's attitude in IV is a recent -- that is, within Luke's lifespan -- revelation. It is consistent with the other films but you have to fill in the blanks to see the logic.
Thus the opening post is presenting a false dilemma: Kenobi is neither of the two avaialble types. He is merely reporting the truth.
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"I knew from the beginning I was not doing science fiction.
I was doing a space opera, a fantasy film, a mythological piece,
a fairy tale."--George Lucas
My "Vader's Origins" thread:
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Quixotic-Sith
Title: Manager Emeritus
Registered:
Jun '01
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Date Posted:
6/15 5:11pm
Subject:
RE: Obi-Wan Kenobi: Epistemological Relativist or Manipulative S.O.B.
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The question only presents a false dilemma if you aren't limiting discussion to what is presented in the film. Once you start off-screen hypotheticals, anything becomes possible. Which is why I'm just focussing on the information presented to date.
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Yeah, mind power, Swede; mind power.
You can never have too much precision in your soup.
Exit, pursued by a bear
More Rockets = More Science
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Sevb32
Registered:
Dec '07
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Date Posted:
6/16 1:24am
Subject:
RE: Obi-Wan Kenobi: Epistemological Relativist or Manipulative S.O.B.
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We have to use off-screen stuff. Otherwise there is little or nothing to discuss.
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Quixotic-Sith
Title: Manager Emeritus
Registered:
Jun '01
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Date Posted:
6/16 5:00am
Subject:
RE: Obi-Wan Kenobi: Epistemological Relativist or Manipulative S.O.B.
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Sevb32 posted:
We have to use off-screen stuff. Otherwise there is little or nothing to discuss.
There seems to have been a few responses before the off-screen stuff was introduced, which suggests it's possible to discuss this without recourse to assumptions and off-screen presentation. Off-screen = ret-con.
-----signature-----
Yeah, mind power, Swede; mind power.
You can never have too much precision in your soup.
Exit, pursued by a bear
More Rockets = More Science
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Sevb32
Registered:
Dec '07
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Date Posted:
6/16 8:46am
Subject:
RE: Obi-Wan Kenobi: Epistemological Relativist or Manipulative S.O.B.
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So what? It's all a work of fiction anyway.
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