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Topic:
Obi-Wan Kenobi: Epistemological Relativist or Manipulative S.O.B.
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the_immolated_one
Registered:
Sep '06
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Date Posted:
6/20 9:08am
Subject:
RE: Obi-Wan Kenobi: Epistemological Relativist or Manipulative S.O.B.
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DarthApocalypse posted:
Forcing Luke on the Larses probably didn't help either.
Who said Luke was forced on the Lars?
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DarthApocalypse
Registered:
Apr '07
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Date Posted:
6/20 9:14am
Subject:
RE: Obi-Wan Kenobi: Epistemological Relativist or Manipulative S.O.B.
- Date Edited:
6/20 9:16am (1 edits total)
Edited By:
DarthApocalypse
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I'm speculating on that statement. It just seemed that Owen didn't seem to happy at the end of ROTS when Obi-Wan brought Luke too them. In addition Obi-Wan had no other options but to give Luke to the Larses so it makes sense that he would do whatever he could to make them accept Luke.
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the_immolated_one
Registered:
Sep '06
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Date Posted:
6/20 12:21pm
Subject:
RE: Obi-Wan Kenobi: Epistemological Relativist or Manipulative S.O.B.
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DarthApocalypse posted:
I'm speculating on that statement.
Ok.
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Ziekfried
Registered:
Jun '08
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Date Posted:
6/20 10:37pm
Subject:
RE: Obi-Wan Kenobi: Epistemological Relativist or Manipulative S.O.B.
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BigBoy29 posted:
Jedi are raised ready to tackle a hardball galaxy. Younglings are taken away and trained hard, no sugar-coating or half-truths.
Kenobi knew Vader was a cry-baby and very emotional about loved ones. He may have thought Luke was the same, but even that does not excuse the lies and stuff.
Thats a load if I ever read one. Jedi are taught to search for the truth because thier masters sure as hell won't tell them. Obi-Wan was no exception. Jedi are known for being cryptic and Obi-Wan being a proper inside-the-lines Jedi fits the description perfectly.
In Owens case I think that maybe when he found out what happened to Anakin after Obi-Wan raised him he decided it would be better for Luke to stay away from him, especially since the Empire was hunting Jed which he knew Obi-Wan to be. Of course he was protecting Luke in many ways. Owen never told Luke about his father either, but he didn't lie to him about it.
On-screen or Off-screen I think Obi-Wan is a manipulative S.O.B. particularly for leaving Anakin to melt in a volcano while spouting out crap like "I loved you." Right that's real believable. Then later raises his son to kill him. Guess he figured if he couldn't finish the job it was the next best thing.
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General Kenobi
Title: Comms Admin
SW & Film Music
Classic Trilogy
Registered:
Dec '98
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Date Posted:
6/21 8:23am
Subject:
RE: Obi-Wan Kenobi: Epistemological Relativist or Manipulative S.O.B.
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Regarding Obi-Wan's choice between the philosophies of his two masters - between the Living Force and Unifying Force, Lucas never quite fleshed out this concept in AOTC and ROTS. Is it like the yin and yang of the Force? Qui-Gon's line at the beginning of TPM suggests that he is more in tune with the with the will of the Living Force and Yoda (and the rest of the Council) more with the Unifying Force, though I don't think it's meant to imply that each Jedi Master ignores the other part.
Here is another dynamic that ROTS changes: In the interim between ROTS and ANH, Obi-Wan and Yoda are "communing" with Qui-Gon while he teaches them the secret of becoming one with the Force and retaining their identity. Assuming that Qui-Gon is able to communicate with them as well as Obi-Wan does with Luke, is it not reasonable to assume that aside from learning the path to immortality they also discussed Anakin's fall and the future of Anakin's children? Did Qui-Gon's spirit believe that he was wrong about Anakin? Or did he try to convince Obi-Wan and Yoda that there was still good in Anakin? The events of the CT would seem to indicate that if Qui-Gon did still believe in Anakin, he was not able to influence Obi-Wan and Yoda.
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xx_Anakin_xx
Registered:
Jan '08
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Date Posted:
6/21 11:15am
Subject:
RE: Obi-Wan Kenobi: Epistemological Relativist or Manipulative S.O.B.
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Well he lied. Does that make him a manipulative S.O.B.? I'd say from a certain point of view...
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Arawn_Fenn
Registered:
Jul '04
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Date Posted:
6/21 12:17pm
Subject:
RE: Obi-Wan Kenobi: Epistemological Relativist or Manipulative S.O.B.
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General Kenobi posted:
Regarding Obi-Wan's choice between the philosophies of his two masters - between the Living Force and Unifying Force, Lucas never quite fleshed out this concept in AOTC and ROTS. Is it like the yin and yang of the Force? Qui-Gon's line at the beginning of TPM suggests that he is more in tune with the with the will of the Living Force and Yoda (and the rest of the Council) more with the Unifying Force, though I don't think it's meant to imply that each Jedi Master ignores the other part.
In fact, there is nothing in TPM to imply that Yoda is any more in tune with the Unifying Force than with the Living Force. "Master Yoda says I should be mindful of the future." "But not at the expense of the moment." It is reasonable to assume here that Yoda represents a balance between the two.
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The world will look up and shout, "Save us." And I'll whisper: "No". - Rorschach
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General Kenobi
Title: Comms Admin
SW & Film Music
Classic Trilogy
Registered:
Dec '98
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Date Posted:
6/21 1:02pm
Subject:
RE: Obi-Wan Kenobi: Epistemological Relativist or Manipulative S.O.B.
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I'm not sure you can make that assumption either. I get the impression from that scene, and other Qui-Gan lines/actions, that Yoda's teachings leaned more towards the Unifying Force, while Qui-Gon was more concerned with teaching Obi-Wan (and Anakin) to be mindful of the Living Force. It's the main reason why Yoda and the council don't want to train Anakin while Qui-Gon does. They see his future as clouded, whereas Qui-Gon is going with the flow of the Living Force, or the will of the Force, as it were.
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GGrievous
Registered:
Nov '05
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Date Posted:
6/21 9:33pm
Subject:
RE: Obi-Wan Kenobi: Epistemological Relativist or Manipulative S.O.B.
- Date Edited:
6/21 9:36pm (2 edits total)
Edited By:
GGrievous
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Also the council thought Anakin was to old and that could not be a good choice. Jedi were peacefully taken from birth and were trained to control their feelings as they grow. Anakin, who just left his mother, is emotional. The way he reacted to Ki-Adi-Munchi and Mace Windu's comments was strong. Yoda stepped in and said "Everything, Fear is the path to the dark side...".
Obi-Wan loved his master and had to train Anakin. Qui-Gon was like a father to Obi-Wan and Obi-Wan was like a father to Anakin.
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"General Kenobi!....You are a bold one... Kill him!" - General Grievous, Ep 3
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JEDIGUNSHIP
Registered:
May '08
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Date Posted:
6/22 12:53pm
Subject:
RE: Obi-Wan Kenobi: Epistemological Relativist or Manipulative S.O.B.
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By lying to Luke, he was trying to keep the latter from running off to be a Jedi when he was not ready. Also, Luke had to be protected from the Empire. Relativist, Obi-Wan was.
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GGrievous
Registered:
Nov '05
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Date Posted:
6/22 3:36pm
Subject:
RE: Obi-Wan Kenobi: Epistemological Relativist or Manipulative S.O.B.
- Date Edited:
6/22 3:37pm (2 edits total)
Edited By:
GGrievous
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JEDIGUNSHIP posted:
By lying to Luke, he was trying to keep the latter from running off to be a Jedi when he was not ready. Also, Luke had to be protected from the Empire. Relativist, Obi-Wan was.
Obi-Wan didnt lie to Luke. His statement was correct, just in his point of view. Obi-Wan wants to protect Luke because he is their only hope to restore the Republic and the Jedi, also the son of Anakin. Luke had to face Vader alone in Cloud City, neither Obi-Wan or Yoda could have stopped him. The choice was his and he made a foolish move but knows who Darth Vader really is, his father. Instead of hearing it from Yoda or Obi-Wan, Luke heard it from Vader's own words. More or less, think of the duel as Luke's Trail of the flesh or courage (Jedi trials). He is starting to become a Jedi Knight.
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Ziekfried
Registered:
Jun '08
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Date Posted:
6/22 4:20pm
Subject:
RE: Obi-Wan Kenobi: Epistemological Relativist or Manipulative S.O.B.
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General Kenobi posted:
The events of the CT would seem to indicate that if Qui-Gon did still believe in Anakin, he was not able to influence Obi-Wan and Yoda.
Yeah, that's about right I'd say. The Jedi didn't quite care what Qui-Gon had to say when he was in the flesh either. And after Obi-Wan's fiasco in training Anakin, he would seem likely to say that Qui-Gon was wrong and he agrees with Master Yoda. If Qui-Gon didn't still believe in Anakin well, what certainly didn't help matters.
My question is: If all of the Jedi Masters were communing with each other and Obi-Wan did what he did, was there a concensus, did he do as he pleased without regard for the other masters, or did they trust him to handle it himself(even though he messed up with Anakin)? I think the answer to this question would help to better determine just how manipulative Obi-Wan really was.
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DARTH_BELO
Registered:
Nov '03
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Date Posted:
6/23 12:46am
Subject:
RE: Obi-Wan Kenobi: Epistemological Relativist or Manipulative S.O.B.
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I always figured that the reason Obi-Wan said that is cos there was some kind of conversation he had with Owen and Beru (offscreen, but implied) about what actually DID happen to anakin. I mean we have to assume they were told SOMETHING to explain why they were being asked to raise Luke...
When Obi-Wan says "he thought (anakin) should have stayed HERE and not gotten involved," I believe when Owen said "here" he meant not to leave Tattooine to become a Jedi. Which would make sense...he'd know about that, too-from Anakin's mother. You can imagine, after hearing what happened to Anakin in the end, it would make sense for one to think "it would be better if he had never left here at all..."
So I think it's being portrayed as Obi-Wan is just recalling a conversation he had with Owen years before...
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Darth-Stryphe
Title: Saga Manager
Registered:
Apr '01
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Date Posted:
6/23 7:24pm
Subject:
RE: Obi-Wan Kenobi: Epistemological Relativist or Manipulative S.O.B.
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Consequently, it appears that based on the contents of the film, leaving implication and inference aside, that Obi-wan merely manipulated Luke into leaving with him and becoming a Jedi. Obi-wan knew that if there was any hope left in the universe that it lay squarely on Luke's shoulders. Obi-wan had to get Luke off planet and into the larger world. He had to train Luke as a Jedi and he had a lot of groundwork to lay in a very short time. The movies suggest that Obi-wan conjured up the story about Owen's disdain for Anakin's lifestyle, and therefore Obi-wan's lifestyle, in order to prompt Luke's departure from Tatooine.
Perhaps, but this doesn't take into account the fact that Owen is making a conscious effort to keep Luke from leaving, for reasons (which he admits to Beru but not to Luke) that it worries him how much like his father he is.
Something else came to mind. Owen and Beru knew Anakin primarily through Shmi. Episode I establishes the Anakin character as a visionary, a dreamer, and a kid with a knack for adventure. Anakin had dreams in Episode I of freeing the slaves, an undertaking that could aptly be described as a crusade. So, perhaps Owen and Beru understood Luke's character to be entirely consistent with Shmi's descriptions of Anakin's character and personality. This thought relies heavily on guess-work, however, as to what or how Shmi would have described Anakin to Lars, Owen, and Beru.
This wouldn't refute my obversations about Owen's concern about Luke's similarity to Anakin. We don't know that Owen knew who Vader was. It is entirely possible he thought Anakin died in the Clone Wars fighting the Empire and wanted to keep Luke from doing the same (in fact, I am almost certain that when ANH was originally filmed, this was indeed the case). My obversation is that Owen doesn't want Luke to follow in Anakin's footsteps, and as such, he wouldn't want Obi-wan to be influencing Luke in that regards.
I don't think that Anakin's visions of glory constitute the crusade that Obi-wan was describing to Luke during Episode IV. I think that "crusade" clearly was the Clone Wars. But there's just not enough information in the films to tie the minimal threads together for a coherent picture. We can infer that Shmi described Anakin to her family. We can infer that Beru saw shades of Anakin's personality as described by Shmi in Luke's personality. We can infer that Owen and Obi-wan had interaction during the twenty years between Episode III and IV. We can infer that the interaction was unfavorable for both. We can infer that Obi-wan became crazy during the twenty years. We can infer that Obi-wan was desperate to redeem his former apprentice at any cost.
I would agree with all of that. I would merely disagree with the assessment that he was deliberately manipulating Luke. His interaction with him was sincere, but he refused to tell him the truth about his father, so he created a lie based on the truth. We can leave the morality of that deception for each person to determine for themselves, but he did it with a purpose, and he did, in fact, not tell Luke the truth about Anakin. And aparently he and Yoda had agreed to keep the truth about Vader from the twins, because Yoda never operated from the perspective that Luke knew or should know about Vader.
Also, a thought occured to me upon reflecting on Quix's opening post, if the basis for saying that Ben lied about Owen is that (a) we never see Owen say the things Ben said he did, and (b) the fact that Ben lied about Anakin, then we are forgetting something. Owen lied, too. We can establish that. So if honesty is a basis for formulating opinion, we cannot favor discrediting Ben on that basis alone.
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Ziekfried
Registered:
Jun '08
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Date Posted:
6/24 2:56am
Subject:
RE: Obi-Wan Kenobi: Epistemological Relativist or Manipulative S.O.B.
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-polymath- posted:
We can infer that Obi-wan became crazy during the twenty years.
Well I'm not sure how we can infer that Obi-Wan became crazy, but it does seem that might be possible, and if that is indeed the case we know that he couldn't have been an epistemological relativist and we can't quite know for sure that he was deliberately manipulative.
-polymath- posted:
We can infer that Obi-wan was desperate to redeem his former apprentice at any cost.
I do not think we can infer he wanted to redeem Anakin by this point though. Such an inference is bogus. Anyone who has seen the end of RoTS would surely know Obi-Wan felt that Anakin could not be redeemed, or he wouldn't have let him burn beyond recognition in a volcano when he could have saved him out of there. He was also obviously training Luke to kill Vader as well as Palpatine. Remeber they are Sith not just Dark Jedi. Dark Jedi they try to redeem Sith they try to kill.
In fact it just occurred to me that if there was any scheming done that would have to be it. The Jedi have been known to do whatever it takes to kill the Sith even if it was "un-ethical."
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