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Topic:
Obi-Wan Kenobi: Epistemological Relativist or Manipulative S.O.B.
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Nordom
Registered:
Jun '04
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Date Posted:
6/24 2:57am
Subject:
RE: Obi-Wan Kenobi: Epistemological Relativist or Manipulative S.O.B.
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Well Obi-Wan lied about several things,
Take the lightsaber comments "your father wanted you to have this..".
This is total fabrication on Obi-Wans part.
Also one does wonder why Obi-Wan would be so specific as to paint Vader as Anakins killer. Luke missed his father a lot and there was a chance that he would want revenge on Vader and he would go after him in hate. This is very bad for a jedi which Obi-Wan is well aware so why risk it?
He could just have said that Anakin was killed by the empire and that Vader was a renegade jedi that helped the empire hunt down the jedi and not name him as Anakins direct killer.
Of course the real situation is that when ANH was made Obi-Wan did not lie, Vader did kill Anakin and so on. With the rest of the OT and the PT this backstory changed and now we have to bend Obi-Wans word or simply assume that he is a liar.
Regards
Nordom
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DRush76
Registered:
Jan '08
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Date Posted:
6/24 9:04am
Subject:
RE: Obi-Wan Kenobi: Epistemological Relativist or Manipulative S.O.B.
- Date Edited:
6/24 9:17am (2 edits total)
Edited By:
DRush76
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Arawn_Fenn posted:
>>Obi-Wan may have been more interested in his own self-prescribed galactic remedy via regicide rather than a more benign, lasting means of furthering the ultimate cause of peace.
But that's just it. There is no benign means of furthering the cause of peace when you're dealing with evil on the scale of the Sith. The Jedi know this.
So . . . are you saying that Luke should have went ahead and killed Vader?
I've noticed that in the saga, resorting to violence to deal with the Sith does not always work. Especially when the Jedi act as the aggressors. I can say the same about the Sith.
Master Yoda says I should be mindful of the future." "But not at the expense of the moment." It is reasonable to assume here that Yoda represents a balance between the two.
I don't see how it is possible that Yoda represented a balance between the Unifying Force and the Living Force. It was Yoda who taught Obi-Wan to be mindful of the future (the Unifying Force). But it was Qui-Gon who warned Obi-Wan not to focus on the future at the expense of the moment (the Living Force). Yoda had never expressed the latter sentiment, until he became Luke's Jedi Master over thirty years later. After he had served as ghost Qui-Gon's padawan.
In the second instance, there is a valid point in seeing Anakin as having died and becoming subsumed by the darkside persona of Darth Vader.
I don't accept the view that Darth Vader was some evil persona that "killed" Anakin Skywalker. The existence of Vader did not mean that the Anakin persona had died. Vader was simply a manifestation of Anakin's darker self.
I don't believe that anyone can kill a certain aspect of his or her nature. Darkness and light exists in everyone. Both existed in Anakin. Both existed in Luke. Both existed in all of the Jedi - including Obi-Wan. Both existed in the other main characters of the saga.
Even though Obi-Wan told Luke that his comment about Vader killing Anakin may have been from "a certain point of view", I have to say that it is a "point of view" I don't exactly share.
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Vortigern99
Title: Manager Emeritus
Registered:
Nov '00
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Date Posted:
6/24 1:48pm
Subject:
RE: Obi-Wan Kenobi: Epistemological Relativist or Manipulative S.O.B.
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Darth-Stryphe posted:
... Owen is making a conscious effort to keep Luke from leaving, for reasons (which he admits to Beru but not to Luke) that it worries him how much like his father he is.
Exactly. The dinner table scene makes it clear that Owen has his own reasons to keep Luke around, that he considers Kenobi a "wizard" and a "crazy old man", and that Beru perceives that Luke is similar to Anakin. Kenobi's telling Luke that Owen felt Anakin "should have stayed here and not gotten involved" is simply clarifying Owen's position; it isn't manipulative or deceptive. Even if Owen and Beru don't know about Vader, that Anakin left his mother to join the Jedi order is enough to 1) reveal Anakin's character to them as an idealistic crusader, and 2) cause Owen regret that he didn't have more help around the farm.
We can infer that Obi-wan became crazy during the twenty years. We can infer that Obi-wan was desperate to redeem his former apprentice at any cost.
Whoever posted this originally, I strongly disagree. Kenobi is not "crazy", and he is not "desparate" to redeem Anakin "at any cost". This reading is simply not supported by the films.
Darth-Stryphe posted:
[Kenobi's] interaction with [Luke] was sincere, but he refused to tell him the truth about his father, so he created a lie based on the truth. We can leave the morality of that deception for each person to determine for themselves, but he did it with a purpose, and he did, in fact, not tell Luke the truth about Anakin. And aparently he and Yoda had agreed to keep the truth about Vader from the twins, because Yoda never operated from the perspective that Luke knew or should know about Vader.
Again, exactly. One can make a moral judgment on Kenobi based on his deception to Luke about Anakin, but at the end of the day both he and Yoda deemed that Luke was not yet old enough for the burden of the knowledge, so he fabricated a story to protect Luke and guide him into the study of the Force without this dark cloud about his homicidal father hanging over him. You may disagree with Kenobi's decision, but I for one understand it and I do not condemn the elderly Jedi for it.
Darth-Stryphe posted:
Also, a thought occured to me upon reflecting on Quix's opening post, if the basis for saying that Ben lied about Owen is that (a) we never see Owen say the things Ben said he did, and (b) the fact that Ben lied about Anakin, then we are forgetting something. Owen lied, too. We can establish that. So if honesty is a basis for formulating opinion, we cannot favor discrediting Ben on that basis alone.
Once more: Exactly. Owen lied about Kenobi AND he lied about Anakin, and he did both not to protect Luke but to further his own agenda about keeping enough labor on the farm. Imagining that Kenobi lied about Owen -- that Kenobi falsely reported Owen's feelings about Anakin -- is pure invention. "He thought he should have stayed here and not gotten involved" is perfectly in keeping with what we know about Owen's character: practical, concerned with the day-to-day business of farming, and uninterested in heroics or serving a larger cause.
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"I knew from the beginning I was not doing science fiction.
I was doing a space opera, a fantasy film, a mythological piece,
a fairy tale."--George Lucas
My "Vader's Origins" thread:
http://boards.theforce.net/Classic_Trilogy/b10002/8708417/p1
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Arawn_Fenn
Registered:
Jul '04
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Date Posted:
6/24 3:11pm
Subject:
RE: Obi-Wan Kenobi: Epistemological Relativist or Manipulative S.O.B.
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DRush76 posted:
I don't see how it is possible that Yoda represented a balance between the Unifying Force and the Living Force. It was Yoda who taught Obi-Wan to be mindful of the future (the Unifying Force). But it was Qui-Gon who warned Obi-Wan not to focus on the future at the expense of the moment (the Living Force). Yoda had never expressed the latter sentiment, until he became Luke's Jedi Master over thirty years later. After he had served as ghost Qui-Gon's padawan.
That does not necessarily mean that it was something he learned from Qui-Gon. It could be that Qui-gon in TPM and Yoda in TESB are both meant to be expressing a core tenet of Jedi teaching.
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DRush76
Registered:
Jan '08
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Date Posted:
6/25 7:44am
Subject:
RE: Obi-Wan Kenobi: Epistemological Relativist or Manipulative S.O.B.
- Date Edited:
6/25 7:44am (1 edits total)
Edited By:
DRush76
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Arawn_Fenn posted:
DRush76 posted:
I don't see how it is possible that Yoda represented a balance between the Unifying Force and the Living Force. It was Yoda who taught Obi-Wan to be mindful of the future (the Unifying Force). But it was Qui-Gon who warned Obi-Wan not to focus on the future at the expense of the moment (the Living Force). Yoda had never expressed the latter sentiment, until he became Luke's Jedi Master over thirty years later. After he had served as ghost Qui-Gon's padawan.
That does not necessarily mean that it was something he learned from Qui-Gon. It could be that Qui-gon in TPM and Yoda in TESB are both meant to be expressing a core tenet of Jedi teaching.
If that was the case then it would have been unecessary for Yoda to become Qui-Gon's padawan during the two decades between the PT and the QT. And yet he did.
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Arawn_Fenn
Registered:
Jul '04
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Date Posted:
6/25 5:00pm
Subject:
RE: Obi-Wan Kenobi: Epistemological Relativist or Manipulative S.O.B.
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Qui-Gon's teachings to Yoda are not about "being in the moment" but rather the path to immortality.
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DarthDuckie
Registered:
Jan '04
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Date Posted:
6/25 5:13pm
Subject:
RE: Obi-Wan Kenobi: Epistemological Relativist or Manipulative S.O.B.
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Unless, of course, the path to immortality involved being more in the moment.
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A hero is a person who understands the responsibility
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Arawn_Fenn
Registered:
Jul '04
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Date Posted:
6/26 7:38am
Subject:
RE: Obi-Wan Kenobi: Epistemological Relativist or Manipulative S.O.B.
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Not proven, not the point of ghosting, and not backed up by anything Qui-Gon said.
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DRush76
Registered:
Jan '08
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Date Posted:
6/26 9:52am
Subject:
RE: Obi-Wan Kenobi: Epistemological Relativist or Manipulative S.O.B.
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Arawn_Fenn posted:
Not proven, not the point of ghosting, and not backed up by anything Qui-Gon said.
I guess that one can say the same about your theory about Qui-Gon's teachings from TPM and Yoda's teaching's in ESB regarding "being in the moment".
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DarthDuckie
Registered:
Jan '04
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Date Posted:
6/26 1:02pm
Subject:
RE: Obi-Wan Kenobi: Epistemological Relativist or Manipulative S.O.B.
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Nothing's proven on this topic though is it? Personally, I think there's plenty in TPM, and then in ROTS, to support the argument in favour of Qui Gon's emphasis on living in the moment being key. But it's all just interpretation.
As to the point of ghosting, I don't think the point of it and the reason that one has the ability to do it are necessarily the same thing.
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Apathy is the glove into which evil slips its hand.
-Bodie Theone
A hero is a person who understands the responsibility
that comes with his freedom.
- Bob Dylan
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Arawn_Fenn
Registered:
Jul '04
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Date Posted:
7/5 9:07pm
Subject:
RE: Obi-Wan Kenobi: Epistemological Relativist or Manipulative S.O.B.
- Date Edited:
7/5 9:07pm (1 edits total)
Edited By:
Arawn_Fenn
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You could say that Qui-Gon being a "maverick" and doing his own thing ( which has been related to his Force
philosophy ) led to him finding the ability.
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Master_Starwalker
Registered:
Sep '03
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Date Posted:
7/13 11:10pm
Subject:
RE: Obi-Wan Kenobi: Epistemological Relativist or Manipulative S.O.B.
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General Kenobi posted:
I think the scene in the Jedi Temple when Yoda tells Obi-Wan he has to go after Anakin and kill him is significant to Obi-Wan's POV.
"Send me to kill the Emperor. I will not kill Anakin."
"To fight this Lord Sidious, strong enough, you are not."
"He is like my brother ... I cannot do it."
"Twisted by the dark side, young Skywalker has become. The boy you trained, gone he is . . . Consumed by Darth Vader."
I think a reasonable link can be made with Obi-Wan's POV that he tells Luke, and the POV Yoda tells Obi-Wan to get him to go after Vader. Did Obi-Wan really buy into it? Enough to go to Mustafar, and enough to still tell Luke on Dagobah after Yoda dies that Vader is still twisted and evil, no good in him.
Exactly. It seems to me that Ben came to believe that for one reason or another.
General Kenobi posted:
I'm not sure you can make that assumption either. I get the impression from that scene, and other Qui-Gan lines/actions, that Yoda's teachings leaned more towards the Unifying Force, while Qui-Gon was more concerned with teaching Obi-Wan (and Anakin) to be mindful of the Living Force. It's the main reason why Yoda and the council don't want to train Anakin while Qui-Gon does. They see his future as clouded, whereas Qui-Gon is going with the flow of the Living Force, or the will of the Force, as it were.
I get an impression which is closer to Fenn's. The only Jedi on the Council who is open to the possibility that the Sith have returned is Yoda. It seems to me that we see three distinct viewpoints there which would reflect where they place their emphasis. There's Qui-Gon who is positive they came back(due to seeing one with his own eyes), Mace(and Mundi) who believes there's no way that the Sith could have returned undetected, and Yoda who believes the Jedi are fallible and that the Sith could have evaded their detection. Qui-Gon would be the Living Force, Mace would be the Unifying, and Yoda would be a blend(with possibly slightly more of a trend towards unifying.)
Of course, it's all interpretation at that point.
DarthApocalypse posted:
I'm speculating on that statement. It just seemed that Owen didn't seem to happy at the end of ROTS when Obi-Wan brought Luke too them. In addition Obi-Wan had no other options but to give Luke to the Larses so it makes sense that he would do whatever he could to make them accept Luke.
True, but Owen's never happy.
DarthDuckie posted:
Nothing's proven on this topic though is it? Personally, I think there's plenty in TPM, and then in ROTS, to support the argument in favour of Qui Gon's emphasis on living in the moment being key. But it's all just interpretation.
As to the point of ghosting, I don't think the point of it and the reason that one has the ability to do it are necessarily the same thing.
All that's been proven about ghosting is that it requires a complete release of the self.
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Arawn_Fenn
Registered:
Jul '04
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Date Posted:
7/14 6:53pm
Subject:
RE: Obi-Wan Kenobi: Epistemological Relativist or Manipulative S.O.B.
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And the Sith can't do it.
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The world will look up and shout, "Save us." And I'll whisper: "No". - Rorschach
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Master_Starwalker
Registered:
Sep '03
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Date Posted:
7/14 6:57pm
Subject:
RE: Obi-Wan Kenobi: Epistemological Relativist or Manipulative S.O.B.
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True, though that is an effect of the fact that it requires a complete release of self given the egomania that is inherent to Sith ideology.
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The_Phenomenon7
Registered:
Apr '08
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Date Posted:
7/18 10:21am
Subject:
RE: Obi-Wan Kenobi: Epistemological Relativist or Manipulative S.O.B.
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I do not like alot of this Obi bashing.
The way I see it,
Yoda wanted Luke to go with his Step-Uncle on Tatooine, to be raised by a family. Obi-Wan probobly told Owen and Beru the whole story to make sure they understood. "Too much of his Father in him." And "That's what I'm afraid of." obvious mentions to fearing another Vader. And I remember reading somewhere...I think it was the Last of the Jedi, but Obi-Wan went to see Owen when he thought Luke was old enough for the training. Owen got angry at Obi and told him to stay away from Luke, the whole "Damn fool old Idealistic Crusader" stuff. Obi-Wan Respected this and waited for the Force to bring Luke to him. Luke goes to see Obi in ANH, Obi mentions Anakin, etc. Obi-Wan had to tell Luke something. He told him the truth, From a Certian Point of View. He said his Father was killed by Darth Vader. Which is true, Ani commited Suicide by turning to the Darkside. He gave him Anakins lightsaber and told him Anakin wanted him to have it. I've always seen it as-
If Anakin didn't go crazy, he'd want his son to become a Jedi and fufill his destiny. So Obi-Wan obviously knew Anakin well enough to be able to infer this. If he had told Luke his Father was the infamous Darth Vader at the begining, Luke would have been overwhelmed. My guess is he planned on Telling Luke more and more as he got more training, and as he was ready. On Mustafar, he had a choice, either Murder the Man he loved as a brother, or let him destroy a galaxy, ending billions upon billions of lives, perhaps trillions. Obi-Wan was able to bring himself to battle and even mortally wound Anakin. I doubt many of us could bring ourselves to murder someone we cared for that much ourselves. Obi-Wan took his lightsaber, shared his pain with Anakin, and then left to leave the Lava to finish him. Obi-Wan was a great man, who had learned from his stupid mistakes and tried his mightiest to make sure Luke was able to finish what he started. He didn't want to kill Anakin, but he knew Vader needed to die. He left it up to Luke, he didn't have much of choice.
So leave old Obi alone.
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