(02-May -> 25-Apr) Update Squad Mod

Discussion in 'Communications' started by dp4m, May 4, 2007.

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  1. soitscometothis Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Jul 11, 2003
    star 5
    ^The smiley-face at the end of malkie's "liar,liar, pants on fire" post show that this will be a civilised, constructive discussion. I think this will end with everyone happy.
  2. Dingo Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Apr 23, 2001
    star 5
    And before anyone decides to form a "jump on malkie" bandwagon, this isn't an isolated issue. There have been previous instances where administrators and/or senior members of the administration have used blatantly false information to support a decision or position, given in such a way as to make it seem a verifyable (yet private) fact when publically available information would prove differently, yet others are discouraged from questioning this. Given the lack of right-of-reply to ask for PPOR for anything inflammatory/defamatory I would like to think that there are those who would question anything that does not have some supportable evidence.
  3. Jesina_Dreis Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Nov 8, 2004
    star 4
    Outsider to this and all but I think Malkie's request is perfectly valid. And I do think it's a matter of public interest to the boards. My two credits.
  4. Kimball_Kinnison Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Oct 28, 2001
    star 6
    Kate,

    I hate to disagree with you, but the MCRP was never designed to be limited to just user complaints. It was a general framework for dealing with moderator discipline. That's what I designed it as, and that's how it was implemented once it was posted. You can check with dp4m about that (as he helped me with much of the MCRP).

    Even if it were as you say, that still doesn't account for part of malkie's case. As he said:
    If there were complaints against malkie that appeared to have any validity, then the next step should have been to investigate the complaint and get all sides of it. A complaint by itself is not a valid basis to discipline a mod, let alone a number of unverified complaints. Every moderator has user who complain about him or her - bans that people didn't like, edits, locks, warnings, etc. It's only when complaints have been investigated and verified that they become a valid basis for discipline. If malkie had complaints against him and didn't know about it, then that means that the administrators were not properly investigating the complaints, and therefore could not have adequately verified them.

    As far as the administrator-only forum, I have to question how effective it will be. We tried something like that before, and the FanForce admins decided arbitrarily to hijack it as their forum in large part because the JC admins were not very active in it. (Namely, they just removed all of the JC admins without notifying us, and later told me at least not to add myself back in.)

    Even then, and I don't doubt that this will be opening a can of worms, I have to honestly question how much attention Sape really pays to the "complaints" sent to him. There have been many times, both during and after my time as a mod/admin, when I have PMed him with a very detailed message covering an issue and received a very short reply from him addressing none of my questions or points, often with the reply sent only a minute or two after the boards say he "read" my PM. Talking with other users and mods, they have seen similar patterns in their attempted communications with him.

    If he follows that same pattern with complaints that are PMed to him, then I have absolutely no faith that he actually reads the details of each complaint, let alone investigates or verifies the complaint. To me, that is unacceptable, and tha
  5. ApolloSmileGirl Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Jun 18, 2004
    star 8
    All these complaints against Sapes, which may or may not be valid. Do any of his accusers actually have the stones to suggest new leadership?

    Yeah, I didn't think so.
  6. harpua Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Mar 12, 2005
    star 8
    You folks all take this stuff waaaaay too seriously.

    We're all just a bunch of dorks posting on a message board... this stuff isn't life or death. :p
  7. Grand_Admiral_Grant Ex-Mod

    Member Since:
    Nov 30, 2004
    star 6
    Message board or not, there is always the matter of treating each other respectful and equally. And that is the bigger issue which appears to be on stake and what makes it important enough to be addressed. (not accusing anybody or implying anything here though:))
  8. Jesina_Dreis Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Nov 8, 2004
    star 4
    People can make a complaint against a mod or an admin without demanding his/her removal. All that's being asked for, I think, is an explanation for something that appears to be inappropriate.

    Sorta like what KK was talking about. Something may seem inappropriate but, when explained, might not actually be as such. Or, it might be. Hence, asking for an explanation, which is what Malkie has been doing.
  9. Kimball_Kinnison Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Oct 28, 2001
    star 6
    Quite honestly, unless Sape himself decides that his actions are inappropriate, there is only one person with the authority to remove him, Philip Wise. The Head Admin is chosen by the owners and acts as their official representative. He serves at their pleasure, and only at their pleasure. There is no process (formal or otherwise) to remove him.

    Kimball Kinnison
  10. dp4m Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Nov 8, 2001
    star 9
    Since my name was spoken metaphorically-thrice (which summons me like Beetlejuice), I will say that I don't believe I had personally believed the MCRP was a replacement for Head Admin sanctions, at the Head Admin's discretion, as "agent of the owners."

    I can see where it would be useful to apply the MCRP for normal complaints moderator : moderator (in the same way as user : moderator), but I had personally viewed it mostly as a tool for user : moderator interactions. Even in the case of moderator : moderator, it would never abrogate the Head Administrator's responsibility to take unilateral action as he/she sees fit. That's why that person is there at the behest of the owners of the site and to make those judgment calls, regardless of what I or anyone else may think about it necessarily.
  11. ApolloSmileGirl Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Jun 18, 2004
    star 8
    Which is understandable, but once you demand it in public, you basically put the Admin in question on trial. If you make a big deal about all of the shortcomings of a moderator in public, than you're obviously questioning their competence in the position they hold.

    If nothing else, it alters the view of the administration, by regular users.

    So like I said, if it's really necessary to blast the administration in front of everyone, you might as well suggest a new head admin may be in your, and everyone else who has complained, interests.
  12. Jedi_Dajuan Admin: FanForce and Games

    Administrator
    Member Since:
    Dec 30, 2002
    star 6
    Please don't drag the FanForce admins into this. Anything that happened with that admin forum was a very long time ago, and none of the current admins had anything to do with it.
  13. Jesina_Dreis Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Nov 8, 2004
    star 4
    No offense intended but I'm pretty sure Malkie's demotion altered at least a few users' views of the administration. *shrug* Sape may be the owners' official representative but I don't think it protects him from having his actions questioned any more than any moderator, manager, or other admin is protected from having their actions questioned. Which is to say, not at all.

    Questioning does not necessarily equate to a call for removal. Plenty of mods and admins have had actions questioned in the past, publicly, and they're still around.
  14. Kimball_Kinnison Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Oct 28, 2001
    star 6
    I wasn't trying to "drag the FanForce admins into it". I was simply trying to explain why I question how effective it will be. Basically, the JC admins didn't use a private admin forum before, to the point where the FanForce admins who did use it took it over. Similarly, there was actually another attempt to use an off-site private forum (known only to the admins at the time) that also died quickly due to lack of use.

    At the same time, we never limited it to only user complaints when we designed it, and that was done on purpose.

    Kimball Kinnison
  15. malkieD2 Ex-Manager and RSA

    Member Since:
    Jun 7, 2002
    star 7
    Exactly.

    Seems that too many people jump to the conclusion that someone should resign due to one mistake. Humans make mistakes, it's how we handle them that's important. (I think too much of it is due to the media - happens here all the time when a politician makes a mistake, then the media demand resignation - forgetting that those people were put in place because of their abilities).

    I don't think anyone is looking for a change of leadership, which is pretty impressive considering how long Sapient has been in the post - he's obviously doing a lot of good things. However, that really doesn't excuse posting false information to support your own decision making - and some sort of comment from the administration would be appreciated :)
  16. rhonderoo Former Head Admin

    Member Since:
    Aug 7, 2002
    star 9
    Wow, popcorn all around. Since this seems to be turning into something beyond giving our opinions on the subject and discussing anything with something productive coming out of it, I'd ask that you take up your concerns with Sape or Philip Wise. That's where you'll get answers. Here, we're creating a public spectacle that is now back full circle. I'm not comfortable at all with a public trial of Sape any more than I was of Malkie. I'm locking this, and Sape can open it and answer your questions if he'd like.
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