181st Imperial Discussion Group: Heir to the Empire!

Hey everybody! This month we will be discussing Heir to the Empire by Timothy Zahn!

Here's a link to the TF.n Staff Reviews.

As always I'll start with some discussion points. We'll be discussing the rest of the trilogy in the coming months, so obviously the whole trilogy is up for discussion, but it's good to bear that in mind. Having said that, a lot of these points are more general, since part of the reason we're discussing these novels is that it's the 20th anniversary so I'm trying to look at it as a relaunching point for the EU and what it brought to the shared SW universe.

Without further ado!

- A lot of the elements of this novel are science fictional as opposed to fantastical concepts that we might not infer from the space fantasy and mysticism of the original trilogy. Ideas like ysalamiri and Force absences, a more realistic sense of militarism and heavy focus on the clones (obviously based on Luke's line to Obi-Wan about the Clone Wars, but still, I think, executed along more science fiction than fantasy lines). What did you think of this? Do you even agree with my assessment? Was it something you expected when you first read the novel? Was it even something you noticed?

- More expected, perhaps, is the heavy inclusion of the smuggling elements of the universe, although arguably, this is something lost from later novels. Here we first meet (in realworld chronology), Mara Jade and Talon Karrde. For the former, certainly, it is, in retrospect, a momentous introduction. How did you initially react to these characters?

- The Empire in this novel is portrayed with more of a sense of military scifi than in the movies, and the villains aren't mystical wizards but tactical geniuses. Another incredibly iconic character, even if he did not get used as much as Mara Jade, is Grand Admiral Thrawn. Again, how did you respond to his presence here? Do you feel he's an original character? A needed character? How do you feel about the shift in the portrayal of the Empire - the first step, in many ways, of rehabbing their image into, without the Emperor, something potentially honourable? It's also worth mentioning Pellaeaon, a character who, at odds with his former commander, became incredibly important because he was used by so many other authors.

- As I mentioned briefly, above, I've been a little broad in the questions here, but are there any specific issues any of you want to raise regarding the plots in this novel? The political war between the Empire and the New Republic including the mysterious Delta Force? The decision to pair up Leia rather than Han with Chewbacca and their time on Kashyyyk? Whether Mara wanting to kill Luke smacks of contrivance or genius? The idea of the New Republic wanting to work with smugglers? The way Karrde is willing to play off against Thrawn? Whether Zahn succeeds in creating strategies genuinely worthy of a genius like Thrawn? ET CETERA!

- Finally, tell me your personal story of first reading this novel. How old were you? How did you hear about it? What were you expecting? Was it an early series in your EU-reading history or was it something you came to later as a "classic" you'd been todl you should read? What did you think?

For me, I was 13. I'd just watched the rereleased 1997 movies for the first time ever (yes, I know, I had a deprived childhood). I thought they were awesome. A family friend and uncle-figure I was staying with for the last few weeks of summer vacation told me about the EU and bought me the first novel before I had to take the plane home. I read the whole thing on the plane home. It was awesome. Never looked back.

Now, you lot, take it away!

Next month we will be discussing Dark Force Rising by Timothy Zahn!

 

I read the Thrawn Trilogy for the first time in many years just recently so it's still fresh in my mind.

I've always had a hard time swallowing Mara, and after reading it recently it was an even bigger roadblock than before.

I'm going to assume everyone knows Mara's upbringing with the Emperor and everything in her past that leads up to her meeting with Luke Skywalker. We all know that she wants nothing more than to KILL LUKE SKYWALKER.

Well, early in the book, she has the perfect opportunity to do so and just doesn't. The reason given for restraint just isn't good enough for me. She has the perfect opportunity and probably just as many logical advantages as disadvantages, so there's really no reason why her raging hatred for him shouldn't win out.

So, why didn't she kill him? Loyalty to Karrde? Yeah, her business relationship with someone she met relatively recently is going to quell that passion inside her. Not to mention, she even reasons that she might be helping Karrde by killing Luke, or turning him over to Thrawn. Is it just because deep down inside Mara's a good person who doesn't really want to kill anyone? Wrong, because her first solution to every problem in this trilogy is just to kill anyone in her way. It seems like Luke is the only person she has qualms about killing, even though he destroyed her life. So, why doesn't she kill him? It really comes off as Mara falling for Luke in the forests of Myrkr. There are several little hints of her bizarre fascination with Luke. Even then, it was the power of love.

Thrawn is described as an exotic, oh so sophisticated Dr Claw. Which was slightly amusing. Unfortunately, I find his supposed genius poorly set up, poorly executed and poorly explained. The notion that he can figure out his opponents in battle by studying their species' art is just silly. Could you imagine that being applied to Earth humans? Pellaeon is there only to marvel at Thrawn and his incredible genius. "Omg, how'd he do that?" is his standard mindset. I'd really like to know the history of why Pellaeon got picked up by so many other authors. Was it just because he was in the wildly popular Thrawn Trilogy, making him sorta like an EU character one notch below movie characters?

I have no problem with the idea of a military genius as leader of the Empire, I just don't think Thrawn was all that convincing. I'm not going to poke holes in his specific strategies, it's been done. His saving grace is that he's so theatrical you just can't help but be amused.

My favorite Zahn character by far is C'baoth. C'baoth is actually a very simple character taken to hilarious extremes. His arrogance, his ego, his sheer imperiousness is just staggering. The guy makes Anakin Skywalker look humble in comparison. I don't think any of us has ever met anyone like C'baoth. His outlandish, larger than life ego is so fantastical it never ceases to amuse me.

He looks, acts and in my head sounds like Charleston Heston as Moses coming down from the mountain.

 

Pellaeon, as was communicated in Heir, was depicted as the defacto military commander for what remained of the Empire post Endor. Keep in mind this was almost Pre-EU(WEG was prominate, Marvel was largely ignored, so on). It was somewhat short sighted and minimalistic to think that a Star Destroyer Captain would, in a relativly quick manner, rise to command the entire Imperial Fleet, but thats what Pellaeon got presented as.

In addition to the Heir to the Empire novel in 1991, 1992 gave us the West End Games Heir Source Book which expands greatly on the novel and fills in a lot of little Pellaeon details along the way.

Now as canon morphed Pellaeon's role itself was adjusted, changing him ever so slightly from the defacto fleet commander to a character who was an extremely influencial Captain. All in all his role is a little muddled now with 20 years of EU adding characters and events, but at the time he was presented as the second most important character in the Empire. That I suspect is the reason why the other authors flocked to him.

I think part of his likability for fans is that he was a "good guy" Imperial. He was presented as not liking Force users, but being extremely loyal to the ideals of the Empire. He wasn't the evil mustache whirling Imperial we'd seen depicted so many time before, he was a career soldier who was on the wrong side of the war, fighting for what he believed in.

And of course the fact that Heir to the Empire was a runaway hit didn't hurt any of the characters that appeared on its pages.

 

I'm not sure if my conception of the SW universe jived with these aspects from the beginning or if in fact it was the Heir trilogy that helped shape my SW universe, but these are all pretty important to me.

I can't remember if it was last year or this year but at some point I finally picked up Asimov's Foundation series, and to me that universe felt almost identical to the OT - minus the Force. Thing is, in the OT, I guess I thought the Force could give you some powers and insight, but not necessarily godlike ones (unless you wanted to be a recluse like Yoda and study it all the time, or conversely, destroy your physical embodiment through reckless use like the Emperor). So Zahn's version, from what I can remember, fits well.

I really enjoyed the use of evolution-related thought processes in these books, too: if the Force were part of an environment, of course there would be organisms (Force-sensitives, ysalimiri, vornskrs) that had evolved tons of varying ways to use/react/interact with it.

And somebody else mentioned finding Thrawn's study of art as a source tactical hints ridiculous - well, I think if we tried the same with earth humans, it would actually be pretty useful. The problem right now is we don't have any other species to really compare to, though I suppose one could try in certain ways with other apes (many of whom have liked to use art materials when given them in the past), elephants, dolphins, etc. The point is, the cultural output of a species will tell you a lot about them: where their visual range is, how many spatial dimensions they tend to conceptualize easily, their general physical size and body plan - and if you understand the content of their work, you might learn about their hangups and cognitive blind spots, etc. The Thrawn Trilogy was my first introduction to what I would later find out was called evolutionary psychology.

 

I think the more sci-fi tone worked. It's very clearly the same universe, but Zahn is looking at it from a different angle -- one where Luke isn't getting Force training and he isn't going up against Sith Lords, so the mysticism and fantasy doesn't quite enter into the story in the same way. It has its entry points -- Luke's vision of Obi-Wan, C'baoth's awe-inspiring displays, Mara's spiritual haunting by Palpatine, Luke's trance at Nkllon, even more basic fantasy-type elements like the trek through the forest with the enemy. But Zahn's real focus isn't on anyone's emerging connection with the Force, so the mysticism is behind us somewhat, and his angle is on the Empire as a military threat to the New Republic. And what do the films looks like if Luke isn't training with Obi-Wan, with Yoda, if he isn't confronting Vader? Well, you've got the Battle of Yavin, the Battle of Hoth, the Battle of Endor. Tarkin, Piett, Executor, the Death Star, AT-ATs, Jabba, Boba Fett, the Mos Eisley cantina, the Millennium Falcon, Admiral Ackbar, X-wings, General Dodonna. And Zahn latches onto all that stuff -- the military, the government, the underworld, with Luke's Jediness hanging around in the story but not being the defining storyline. It's a very natural direction to go, since Zahn can't really try to make an opponent in the style of Vader or Palpatine -- it would be either a pale imitation or a KJA-style retread-while-one-upping. So he gives us a different kind of opponent in Thrawn, and keeps C'baoth as something very different from Vader or Palpatine -- an insane Dark Jedi who's not really a big threat without Thrawn propping him up -- and keeps him on the sidelines. So I don't think the military focus throws off the tone -- it just takes a big element of the films and digs into it deeper.

What really does up the sci-fi quotient is the new elements that Zahn adds -- the ysalamiri and the clones. The clones, in my mind, fit really well -- they're referenced in the films, they're not wildly outlandish, and they fit with the sci-fi, Buck Rogers tone of ANH, with its Death Stars and laser swords. The ysalamiri are trickier, since they mess with the Force and are a totally original concept. They're a great example of Zahn thinking hard about the setting and coming up with something original and interesting that really has an impact on the story, and the concept of putting Luke on a planet where he can't use the Force is great, but there's also something about them that's always been sort of unsettling, and I'm of mixed feelings about them.

The inclusion of the underworld is great. It's a key element of Star Wars, one that's too often left out. Zahn does a great job with Karrde by making him not Han Solo or Lando. He's not this lone rogue out there. He's a big crime boss, who is key to the story not out of luck in getting into the right spot at the right time, but because he genuinely has a ton of resources to bring to bear. He's still part of that world, but he's something we've never seen before. The thing about Karrde and Mara both is that they avoid the scoundrel-with-a-heart-of-gold thing. They're both people who are calculating, mercenary, genuinely aloof to the good guys, often hostile. They side with them not because they're secretly longing to do the right thing, but because they're forced into it by the situation. They both have this deep-buried streak of nobility, but it doesn't come out right away. They're not showing back up at the Death Star. They're not doing anything that they're not forced into by circumstances. They're not signing up for any sides. Mara's genuinely hostile; I don't think she's ever been written better than she has here, where she has this wonderful, intriguing hard edge that keeps her from being just another good guy and gives her really interesting interactions with the heroes.

Thrawn is a great character. By far the most underappreciated and underused major film character is Tarkin. Thrawn is a take on an Imperial villain that calls back to Tarkin, not to Vader or Palpatine. That's pa

 

I read HTTE for the first time shortly after the release of Jedi Search. So, sometime in 1992? I think I was 13. In fact, I remember specifically picking up Jedi Search and The Last Command at Sam's Club and reading Jedi Search first, and then The Last Command and then scratching my head a bit until I took a closer look at the books and figured out "whoa, I read these out of order and there's a couple other books I need to get before The Last Command and Jedi Search." Which necessitated me hunting them down. I found HTTE at a local Waldenbooks. And later I found Dark Force Rising, in hardcover, at one of those Book Warehouse liquidator things. So I've had, for years, HTTE and TLC in paperback and only DFR in hardcover. Until the last couple years, when I tracked down the others in hardcover.... to which I got a pretty good deal on an HTTE first edition. I'm not sure if I want to get all three for Kindle as well, but I might. I love the trilogy that much. I have yet to get the 20th anniversary edition of HTTE, which I probably should do at some point.

There's a kind of irony, I think, in how politics heavy HTTE and the Thrawn Trilogy as a whole are... such that it pre-empts the PT, but executes it far better and more believably. It's at least more entertaining and not a bore to read. And the shift in focus away from the mystical aspects of the Force is both a departure from the films while simultaneously being nearer to the films than more recent efforts, which have skewed the perspective far further into the realm of the fantastical than even GL goes. Simultaneously, Zahn picks up on ideas implied in the films. For instance, with C'Baoth he picks up on the fact that after Palpatine's death the Imperial fleet collapses into chaos in ROTJ and are swiftly routed by the smaller Rebel force. In the ROTJ novelization the author actually writes that as if the Emperor were doing the Battle Meditation power that Veitch gives a name to, but that Zahn develops with C'Baoth and Thrawn's reasoning for using him at all. Which, I think, is pretty brilliant considering that you don't have to come to that conclusion watching ROTJ, but it makes sense. So while Zahn eschews the fantastical as the main thrust of his writing, he obviously has no problems building on it in ways that work with what he's doing. As a purely military perspective on it via Thrawn... who realizes how swiftly the fleet fell into disarray after Vader slew the Emperor, he extrapolates(or perhaps he knew this was something Palpatine did, since they were close) that Palpatine was exerting some kind of mystical control over his minions.. and so, when he sees the opportunity to use a loony Dark Jedi that he believes he can control(reasonably so, since he's got ysalamiri.... which are a pretty neat innovation themselves) he jumps at the opportunity to use C'Baoth in that capacity in order to utilize his new clones and cloaking tech.

 

Before I make my comments, I'd like to know if it's permitted to add any comments I might have concerning the annotations that were printed in the rerelease of this novel last month.

 

I find it strange that there's lots of criticism going on here, I'd expected the book to get universal praise right away. But after reading it again, I wouldn't heap universal praise on it either. Even if it's still up there as one of the fundamental and most enjoyable works of the EU.

In retrospect, it's short of amazing how well the characters are transferred from the movies to this book, although I have to side with Havac regarding Han and Lando. Having Han as "the smuggler ambassador" and Leia's taxi ride is as much the state of ESB as is Lando just going for another [enter name her] City mining operation. Both of this still works, but even in this first post-ROTJ book, it's a bit awkward when Karrde calls them generals when they are not but should be. Actually, I think this might be the very foundation of the downfall of Han's and the sidelining of Lando's character in later books. Leia and Luke are going to be the most important leaders in the universe; Han is a glorified house-husband who's got no outlook except for using the Falcon and worry about Leia and the kids.

In that regard, not only do the characters translate well, but the entire universe is a plausible extrapolation of the movies. While the inclusion of the namedrop planets Tatooine and Dagobah is a bit much (especially Tatooine, and very especially setting the scene in the Cantina), the new planets are interesting, the entire setup/situation is plausible, and the history of how the characters come to this point just makes sense, most of all regarding Leia's pregnancy. This is something that needed to be part of the story; not just "oh, they got kids offscreen, so lots of time passed" and not COPL's state of "they're a couple but they still have to truly commit to each other". Here, the pregnancy gets the importance it deserves, the symbolism and the powerplays that come with it.


I was also astonished to go back and see how big the underworld/smuggling component is in this book. It's almost as if the title is also meant to refer to the Heir of the Other Empire - the smuggling empire. It's funny, though, how Karrde's operation never really appears like a credible successor to Jabba's crime organization although it should be. You have pretty few people "onscreen", you have one base. Something I apparently never paid attention to is how Mara is second in command while having been there for just a short time, which also does not speak for the size of the organization.

In that regard, it's also interesting how much stuff in this book is about the power of information (ironically even in the small detail of having a politician from the bothan "dying-for-information" camp). The smugglers know more about Thrawn than the Republic; actually, the Republic doesn't know anything about this hidden Grand Admiral (which is a bit strange); Thrawn knows all about Rebublican insider info right down to the pregnancy; he knows about secret Imperial stuff like Wayland, Spaartis and the Noghri, and he finds out about Ysalamiri. Karrde knows about Ysalamiri when just about nobody else does. The galaxy doesn't really know about the VIP status of Luke, but every smuggler knows about Han. No-one knows about the Noghri. And this is just the tip of the iceberg - there's so much information politics going on in here you should do a map of it.

Based on that, I think it's funny that Luke isn't the galactic holo-hero that he is today (just look at Mindor). Information politics were very different back then, and just like Zahn mentioned that the entire process of contacting your agent/publisher/fellow author was much different 20 years ago, so was the media landscape. Today, the holonet is the internet. Back then, I don't think the authors had this in mind; it was more of a means to contact people, not to instantly get information. So much information that you need piles of datapads to keep it in your office (compare this to one office in this book - Thrawn's or maybe Karrde's - where there's just talk of one pad). But generally, it's funny to not only see the famous Clone Wars re

 

I've said this in many other threads before, but one of Zahn's core strengths as a writer is his knack for characterization. He has an excellent grasp of what a character would or would not do, how they would handle a situation, how they would talk, etc. I was rather struck by how much Pellaeon has been whitewashed since HTTE; the man does not bat an eyelash at the enslavement of the Noghri. C'Baoth is extremely grating throughout the trilogy, but I'm convinced that he is meant to be that way. If there is any authorial tic, it is the constant mention of lip acrobatics. The mere thought of it makes my lip twitch. Mara is...eh, somewhat abrasive in HTTE, but Zahn irons that out for the most part in later novels. It doesn't make her unbearable, just kind of abrasive. Zahn is pretty concise when it comes to dialogue, which after having read the first four novels of X-Wing is quite a relief.

The plot works well; it is logical, believable, and still exciting. It actually *moves*, instead of treading water for chapter upon chapter to fill up a page count. What struck me when I finished The Last Command a week ago is how almost none of the seemingly extraneous details and plotlines turned out to actually be extraneous. Reading through HTTE and DFR, Thrawn's ultimate demise becomes less of a deus ex machina and more of the author following through on one of his side plots in an unexpected manner. He's great at setting up hugely important plotlines early on in his novels, then dangling them in front of you- heck, he sets up half of the plot of Hand of Thrawn during TLC.

My story: I initially didn't like the OT, as far as I can remember. Episode One was what actually got me hooked on Star Wars; my early exposure to the EU entailed Starfighter: Crossbones, the Jedi Apprentice Series, and the Jedi Academy trilogy. Like Havac, I bought the NEGTC pretty early on, so naturally I was spoiled for much of the EU. I probably first read HTTE in 6th or 7th grade. What speaks to the strength of Zahn's writing is that it lost none of its potency even for a reader who basically knew the whole story going in. It still filled me with suspense and a feeling of wonder; I still remember how excited I was to finally read The Last Command- even with me knowing that Thrawn would die and the New Republic would triumph, I still anticipated the conclusion to the trilogy with about as much excitement as I did Episode III (Incidentally, it was only in the last year or so that I read Hand of Thrawn). Heck, I started rereading HTTE about two weeks ago, and it still worked its magic- I finished The Last Command a few days ago.

More thoughts to come, perhaps.

 

I agree, that's what makes this book stand out even if stuff like the Kashyyk visit or the general coincidental meeting of characters is stretched to the extreme. Yeah, it's really odd how Luke and Han not only are at Karrde's at the same time that Thrawn shows up, and that they directly move to the place where Thrawn is having his master attack, which can be only foiled because the owner of the mining vessels happens to appear out of thin air with the necessary codes in his brain - but as the characters play the situation out exactly as they would, without breaking the fourth wall regarding the implausibility of the scene, and with lots of action - this is what keeps me reading.

edit: But yeah, Mara's acting in this is really strange, so I'd exclude her from my praise. Can't really understand why she would hold back seeing how she's bent by Palps on killing Luke. Especially since she's already unveiling the secret instead of having to keep up a facade for a greater benefit, and generally not being very stealthy about the entire Luke/Empire thing.

 

I think Mara's hesitancy is sort of the point. She tells herself that she's longing to kill Luke, but subconsciously, she has no desire to carry out this external mandate Palpatine has imposed on her. A couple times over the course of the trilogy, she gets bugged, "Well, when are you going to do it?" and she always blusters about how she'll do it, just you see, and she never does it. Because she doesn't actually want to. Her subconscious, and maybe the Force, are telling her that she's got no reason to actually want to kill Luke herself, especially once she actually meets him and he's a nice guy. She's been bumping around for five years and never bothered to go after Luke. She's in total denial about the fact that she has no intention of killing Luke.

 

What Havac said. Besides, she couldn't very well kill her future husband, could she?

In addition, as to why she was so loyal to Karrde - Mara is a very loyal person. It is very hard for her to give her loyalty, but when she does, it's usually for keeps. So even though she's only known Karrde for a few months, she's given him her trust and loyalty and it would've been much more out of character for her to disobey Karrde and kill Luke.

More on the rest of the book later.

 

This is a hard book to measure objectively, in the same way that Newton's writings can't really be criticized for their flaws: it's impossible to separate the Thrawn books from their overall influence on Star Wars as we understand it.

From a saga perspective, how secular this book is stands in sharp contrast to the Jedi- (and to a lesser extent, Mando-) centric storylines we've been getting since the PT. By portraying Luke as not terribly far along from where he was in RotJ, the heavy lifting is shifted from him to everyone else. The reputation of the Jedi still exists on the periphery - we see Luke accorded enormous respect when dealing with members of the New Republic, and not because he blew up the Death Star. But there is a sense that the Republic must be maintained and defended by everyone else, without counting on the Jedi to be the be-all-end-all in moral guidance and physical defense. It's an element that I think the EU has walked away from in recent years - we have almost no non-Jedi centric stories in any of the Clone Wars media, and the Big 3-era fiction has taken such a grim term that there really is not Government or Cause that our heroes can identify with. There is a sense of optimism about the New Republic in these books that is sorely missed.

I agree with Jello - I miss Villain Thrawn.

I know Havac has already shouted-out Karrde, but viewing this character in a post-PT light is fascinating. Karrde comes from an age where 2/3rds of the existing films spent significant, memorable time in "hives of scum and villainy." The closet we get in the Prequels is a NASCAR race and a bar that looked more like Ten Forward than it did the Mos Eisely Cantina. Karrde's disappearance has paralleled the loss of the gritty underworld from the Big 3 era, another contributor to that era feeling very far from "home." The book also provides one of the very few examples of the Empire working with the Underworld, which really expanded the "middle ground" of the Galactic Civil War. Again, this is a thread that I really wish the EU had picked up and ran with.

Zahn should also be commended for NOT making Karrde a Hutt, even though they had been long-established as the criminal power in the galaxy. The lack of attention given to the Hutts is perhaps a flaw, but giving us a human mob boss was one of the more expansive ideas of the early Expanded Universe.

 

It is funny to look back on Heir to the Empire after all of these years. Since we are all sharing our fond memories of starting the journey into the Expanded Universe, I figure I will start there.

In 1992 or 1993 my mom picked up the paperback edition of HTTE. She tried to read it and didn't find it particularly compelling, but she knew that I was just starting to get into Star Wars, as my grandparents had given me the Trilogy on VHS. I was only 9 or 10, but I always was reading at a few grade levels above my own, so I eagerly jumped into it. Suffice to say, I loved the book and eagerly awaited the paperback editions of both DFR and TLC.

Looking back at HTTE, one thing that really stands out to me is Zahn's characterizations of both Thrawn and Pellaeon. I am one of those fans who feels that subsequent books with Thrawn (especially those by Zahn himself) have ruined the character and made him to much into this "uber-demigod" who is better than everyone. However, in the original Thrawn Trilogy, Zahn wrote the character fantastically. Pellaeon is another character who has NEVER been written as well as he was in the original Thrawn Trilogy. As Hav mentioned in an earlier post, he was Watson to Thrawn's Sherlock Holmes. The scences between those two characters are some of the best written in the EU, hands down. Pellaeon has alot of detractors (see my good buddy Jello for more information ), but he was a character who helped define the EU's definition of the post-Palpatine Imperial State.

Zahn really shined in his political and military look into the New Republic. There is arguably no character created for the Expanded Universe whose motives have been more discussed, questioned, and analyzed than Borsk Fey'lya. Bringing the Bothans into the Expanded Universe is IMO on the Zahn's simple masterstrokes. It is always fun to have good guys that have shades of grey, as Borsk showed time and again. His rivalry with Ackbar is one of those forgotten gems of the Expanded Universe, but it defined the political crisis the NR government faced in 9 ABY.

Speaking of Ackbar, one thing that Thrawn's most ardent fans typically overlook is the level that the Grand Admiral went to to have Ackbar removed from power prior to starting his main campaign against the New Republic. Granted I have a well known bias to Admiral Ackbar, but I think it is very telling that Thrawn's preference when facing our beloved Mon Calamarian admiral was to have him removed from power, as opposed to defeating him in open battle.

Lastly, Zahn deserves out undying thanks for gladly (at least after his editor mentioned he had to) incorporating the vast materials created by West End Games into his story. This started the trend to have an all inclusive Expanded Universe. Granted, this has gotten messier over the years as the EU has expanded, but at least the trend started right at the begining.

While I have not been of fan of much of Zahn's subsequent EU works, Heir to the Empire and the rest of the Thrawn Trilogy remain for me among the very best of the Expanded Universe.

--Adm. Nick

 

I may have to embark on another re-read of TTT, and probably the comic adaptations as well, and then HoT(which I have only read once, believe it or not). I still don't have Choices of One.

HTTE and it's sequels aren't perfect, but their greatness is full of nostalgia, number one, but I think they hold up really really well. I used to LOVE JAT, but I can't get past half of Jedi Search anymore. Thrawn, I can breeze through as if it was fresh to me every time.

 

Thinking about it, Zahn actually retires all the main guys - Han, Lando, and Luke - at least from the military. I think I may have preferred if he kept Han and Luke in different branches of the military, at least in an auxiliary capacity, and set Lando back into real administration and politics. I did like that he made Leia a Counselor, but not Mon Mothma's official second-in-command. In my opinion, one of KJA's biggest mistakes was making Leia the galactic Chief of State before she hit 30. But I agree that Zahn was maybe too much in an ESB mindset when it came to the movie characters, and didn't think of ROTJ.

One criticism I do have of Zahn is his tendency to make all his characters too similar in personality or expression. I think Thrawn, Karrde, Mara, Leia, Winter, Han, Lando, and even Luke had cool smiles, wry smiles, lip twitches/sneers, and raised eyebrows. At one point or another, most of the main characters were described as cool or calculating. It builds up over the course of three books. Thrawn, Karrde, and Han all seemed like different facets of one personality, and the same happened with Mara, Leia, and Winter. This was almost certainly intentional, but hammered home so hard that sometimes it seemed that this is the only type of character that Zahn likes writing.

Lastly, and this isn't really Zahn's fault, but his attitude toward celebrity sticks out from the rest of the EU. It's a little strange to see Wedge Antilles with almost no wider reputation in the NR military, knowing about his role in the Battle of Endor and his adventures with the Rogues and Wraiths. It's been pointed out that Luke doesn't seem well known to the general public. It's just odd, with the other books that ended up chronologically flanking TTT. Again, not Zahn's fault since his came first, but kind of weird.

 

It is rather odd, in retrospect, when Wedge thinks that as a lowly wing commander he isn't going to draw much notice. Particularly after The Krytos Trap. Maybe Rogue Squadron lost out on some internal politics issue- it would explain why they are assigned to guarding Sluis Van, rather than in some campaign against the warlords. But yes, it's unlikely that Fey'lya in particular would forget Wedge; he *did* lead the Bacta War in the face of direct opposition from the Bothan councilor.

 

Ally - please feel free! I don't see that annotations would be considered spoilers in any event, but as of today, we're a month out from release which I believe is the end of the official spoiler period on this forum anyway? So yeah, please, go ahead.

A general note to everyone - I'm extremely sorry for not participating so far on the thread and very glad to see you all chatting - I am catching up and hope to be able to respond fairly soon. Since the weekend I've managed to be made redundant and had a pet health emergency so I've spent most of the week dealing with that stuff. It's been a mixed bag! I lost a key argument over my official notice period but on the plus side, my baby rat is making a full recovery and is no longer in imminent danger of death, so you know, you win some, you lose some. Just wanted to let you all know where I've been.

Please - continue with excellently distracting discussions of Zahn!

 

This is an interesting one for me. I have always known about Thrawn and this trilogy, but this is the first time I'd actually ever read the novel. I picked up the anniversary edition recently. I think what I like the most is how this book doesn't seem to play off of the bigger picture idea that has driven the EU as of late.

This series represents a conflict that happens within the greater whole, being the focus, but not the entire picture. It delves into the minute, the stuff that is taken as "being" and places the focus on that. Thrawn is a definite threat to the New Republic, but he is not a galaxy destroying evil like Palpatine was or any of the proceeding villains. He was a very competent military commander who managed to reform the Imperial Navy into a concentrated fighting force.

Compared to the "Save the Galaxy" stories that have come after, that's a very humble goal. Bring the Empire back from its embarrassing state and make it a prominent power in the galaxy. But despite that less than lofty goal, the books never lose sight of what it means to be Star Wars.

You still have the awesome fleet battles, the Force, dark Jedi, but it all appears more in line with the films than with the later works of the EU. The Expanded Universe has sort of developed along the same lines as Warhammer 40000. Over time, things have become more and more ludicrous, to the point where the original vision has been buried under decades of GRIMDARK.

At the time, I'm sure this would have been seen as setting the standard for the EU, being pure to the films while also maintaining a semblance of independence. After the EU erupted with more and more zany one-upping stories, Heir to the Empire seems almost tame by comparison.

But perhaps that is what the EU needs. To slow down, stop making newer, more dangerous enemies, and focus on the smaller stuff. Get back to being Star Wars, and not Luke Skywalker versus the Cthulu beast from the planet Zog.

 

I think, before the prequels, none of the SW villains were necessarily 'galaxy-destroying.' Palpatine would have been the closest, but even his successes and failures were his own, I think, not tied to the life or death of the Force or the universe.

In order to get back to that, I feel like people first need to determine what they want SW to be, and then cleave to one model or the other (or try to mix them somehow). But I'm not sure that so many people would be for going back to the 'smaller-scale' model, simply because the 'Epic' way of presenting things is now so entrenched in SW, let alone in fantasy/scifi as a whole.

 

I just watched the Tosche Station deleted scenes on the DVD, and seeing Luke there got me thinking.

In the final cut of A New Hope, we don't see very much of Luke before Owen and Beru are killed. The character we do see is whiny and moody, and remains, at least in The Empire Strikes Back, a little bit of a bumpkin. By Jedi, there is no whine left in him. But seeing those deleted scenes reminded me of something: Luke, underneath all the trauma and Jedi discipline, is a nerd.

Zahn is one of the very few authors to capture this. With Luke's hot chocolate and relentless nice-guying, he really comes across as a maturation of the same character we've seen from ANH, not just a continuation from RotJ. It's a fine difference, but an important one.

 

OK, I hope you didn't mean the OOU knowledge husband thing seriously.

I see a definitive problem in this characterization - of course it makes sense once we know the entire story, and after Zahn absolved his character of any sins regarding serving the dark side later on in VOTF - but in this book, we know too little and too much at the same time to make it a "satisfying mystery that will surely be solved in a future book". We do not know Mara's true personality, we do not know what might conflict with orders from her former master. Vader, in ESB, eventually reveals that he's at odds with his master's plans; but up to that point, he's behaving completely logically: find Skywalker, possibly for personal revenge, then for the Emperor's pleasure. Now, having Mara as grumpy and I'd-like-to-kill-you-but-hold-back personality makes sense in any kind of scenario - but being revealed as Palpatine's personal asassin, and then still not doing anything about it? Palpatine's asassin being held back by her working contract with some smuggler guy and by the fact that Luke is an insufferable nice guy (which she only finds out after mentioning for the fifth time that she could simply kill him)?

The fact that she's not remained loyal to the Empire's debris and has no intention in helping Thrawn rebuild the state (in this book) makes it even more strange - because then, her ties to Palpatine must have been even more personal. Not some vague oath to institution or throne that would allow her re-entry into the Imperial service at a lower level, but to the guy himself.

Ending my rant, I even found it a a bit jarring to have her reveal that she was a dancer at Jabba's palace just a few lines before the fact she really was one of the (theoritically) most evil people in the SW galaxy. If you're in cahoots with Palps and Vader, why would the audience think that you're anything else than in serious need of redemption and/or being killed? And that you look good in a Hutt's dancing attire?

We can all agree on the point that this book is as legendary as Mara is, but in retrospect, I really think that her character arc is taking too much of a back seat in this volume, resulting in an intriguing setup that could have started off more believably. But who am I to critizise the legends of two decades ago?

 

It's definitely Zahn's point, but I think it's poorly explained.

Again, why? Someone tell me why she wouldn't kill Luke on sight? She obviously cared a great deal for Palpatine, he practically raised her. They had a very intimate telepathic connection. He encouraged her, trained her and put her in a position of power. The book suggests that he's a bit of a father figure to her. She should be enraged by Palpatine's death, he was the only person she "knew" for like ten years of her life, basically her entire adolescence.

So, what? She just didn't care about Palpatine? She didn't care that he was killed? She hated him? She didn't care that she went from luxury to poverty? Palpatine's prodding, which seems extremely powerful on its own, is not her only motivation.

I still haven't heard a good reason why she wouldn't kill Luke in the forests of Myrkr. I don't mean to be hostile here, but I haven't seen any reasoning behind statements like "she didn't really want to".

Why? Because she has a problem with killing? Except her solution to every problem in this trilogy is to kill anyone in her way. She's very quick to draw her blaster. It's been said, she's a freakin assassin.

It seems like the sole reason is because Zahn had her picked out as Luke's love from the start.

Except she definitely has strong reasons to want to kill Luke, she believes he killed Palpatine. Not only did he kill someone she cared about, Luke "destroyed her life", in her own words. Let's not make it out that she has nothing against Luke personally and this whole thing about killing Luke is all Palpatine's meddling.

She's been bumping around for five years because of Luke, and she never had an opportunity to go after him. After Palpatine died, she lost all her means of survival. She had to scrape and struggle just to survive, taking whatever crap job she could get and bouncing from place to place trying to pull herself out of the gutters of the galaxy. She was in no position to go after Luke, she could barely afford food and shelter.

 

Let's also remember that at this point, Luke wasn't "very well known to the galaxy" according to the book. She might not have known where to look except for the general direction of the Rebel Alliance/New Republic, and without access to Imperial ressources, she might not have had a chance to infiltrate the Alliance anymore. Later books established that she might have been able to pull something like that off, but from HTTE alone, one could argue that she didn't (just like HTTE states that Mara has not much experience with a lightsaber when it's part of her standard equipment in prequel stories).