2 observations about Jedi standard of not killing an unarmed person

That's funny junior, I didn't say anything of the sort. Why don't you just let Duggy talk so the adults can work this out. You and the Vader symbol are just shooting your team's argument in the foot.

 

Yes, teacher. However, I don't think there's irrefutable evidence to suggest that Mace did not believe he was still dangerous at the time. As I've said, I would have liked to see Mace chopping off Palpy's hands as Palpy's mumbling that stuff to Anakin about Anakin having to "make a choice" and having the power "to save the one you love". You know...eliminate Palpy's ability to use Force lightning. But then it wouldn't be the quite so interesting around here.

 

read Tubbs ^^^. i countered all your arguments . even provided Quotes. Your whole argument is based on the Fact that nobody in the movie say's out loud that the Jedi aklways try and arrest unarmed defeated combatants . and i provided Quotes that prove that their Mandate is to try and arrest first. and all you can come up with is that Obi and Anakin killed all the droids on Grievous ship? or that they fought their way back into Their OWN Temple?

Weak. that's all can say.

 

That's funny junior, I didn't say anything of the sort. Why don't you just let Duggy talk so the adults can work this out

Ok my boy - was it not you who said that the jedi are not required to look for a solution to killing? That killing wasnt always the last option?

If thats the case why does Mace go to arrest Sidious?

Oh yeah, I forgot to thank you for all the laughs you have brought to the boards this evening little tubbs. Havent had as much fun on the boards in a longo time.

read^^^. i countered all your arguments . even provided Quotes. Your whole argument is based on the Fact that nobody in the movie say's out loud that the Jedi aklways try and arrest unarmed defeated combatants . and i provided Quotes that prove that their Mandate is to try and arrest first. and all you can come up with is that Obi and Anakin killed all the droids on Grievous ship? or that they fought their way back into Their OWN Temple?

Weak. that's all can say.

Thats not very fair Duggy. He did present the evidence that jedi sleep with teddy bears and that Mace Windu is unreliable.

 

stop it, tubbs. that's calling names. i think you've been banned before. why force it again?

 

First, let's take a step back and not get personal.

Second.

Sure they did. The Clonetroopers opened fire on the Jedi when they arrived. They couldn't let them live either, least they try to contact re-enforcements.

How is it not? Take Luke in ROTJ. He opts to go for negotiation with Jabba. He enters Jabba's Palace unarmed. He continually negotiates with Jabba, until he has no choice but to go with aggressive negotiations. Obi-wan is known as the Great Negotiator. Mace tells Palpatine that he is under arrest and only decides to kill him after Palpatine resists twice. Anakin has defeated Dooku and claims that it was wrong to kill him. A Jedi kills as a last resort.

Let's go over the points, one by one.

1. Jedi destroy Battle Droids. Nothing wrong with that. They aren't alive. They're machines. Also it should be noted that the Droid Army was controlled by remote. Throughout much of TPM, they could not get to the remote. Once the option became viable, the Gungans fought the Droid Army while Anakin blew up the Federation ship. Afterwards, the Confederacy hid the remote signal where the Jedi and Republic would never find it.

2. Obi-wan and Qui-gon fight Darth Maul, who is going to kill them. But they are sent to Naboo to protect Padme and draw out the mysterious warrior. The fight is on and both Jedi hope to wear Maul out and disarm him. Then he would be arrested. Unfortunately, that plan goes south and Obi-wan had no choice but to kill Maul. Arrest was not an option anymore. Maul was hardly helpless or unarmed.

3. Obi-wan disarmed Zam Wessel and took her out to be questioned. Jango killed her in cold blood.

4. Obi-wan was told to bring Jango Fett in for questioning. Obi-wan fights him, but never makes a move to kill Jango.

5. Mace kills Jango because there is no longer a need to arrest him and in the situation, it was the last resort. Jango was shooting him and was armed with a berevy (sp) of weapons. Mace trashed the blaster and then decapitated Jango. Afterwards, he looks down as he briefly mourns the loss of life and then moves on. Mace didn't even kill Jango when he first entered the balcony.

6. Obi-wan and Anakin were told to prevent Dooku from escaping. Both Jedi were defeated and Yoda stepped in. But he never made a move to kill Dooku at all. Lucas even changed how the fight ended. With Yoda knocking Dooku down and pointing his saber at him.

7. Anakin wasn't supposed to kill Dooku like he did. He wasn't even supposed to kill him at all. He's a criminal and must stand trial.

8. Grievous left Obi-wan no choice. Obi-wan only had a blaster and was hanging on for dear life. Grievous was going for the kill. In self defense, a Jedi is justified.

9. Yoda killed Gree and the Scout Trooper because they were going to kill him first. Afterwards, Yoda avoids killing the rest of the Clonetroopers. Any killing that was done was done by Chewie and Tarrful.

10. Zett Jusaska killed a few Clonetroopers to save Bail and to escape, before being shot himself.

11. Obi-wan and Yoda killed the Clonetroopers who fired upon the Jedi first. They couldn't let them call for backup.

12. The Jedi Posse were going to arrest Palpatine so that he stands trial. Mace changes his mind when he realizes that it would be pointless to arrest him. Anakin justifies his decision when it was really just a selfish thing that he did stopping Mace from ending it.

13. Yoda was not going to arrest Palpatine. He knew what Mace had come to realize. Yoda was going to do what the Jedi and the Republic did a thousand years back.

14. Obi-wan does not kill Anakin because it was not right to kill an unarmed and helpless man. The fire would kill him and that was enough.

 

All hail Sinsiter.

 

I'm the only person "calling names".

 

well said sinister

 

3. Obi-wan disarmed Zam Wessel and took her out to be questioned. Jango killed her in cold blood.



Thank you. i pointed that out two pages ago , to no avail.

 

I'm the only person "calling names".

Lets exercise some maturity hey Tubby.

 

Yes, teacher. However, I don't think there's irrefutable evidence to suggest that Mace did not believe he was still dangerous at the time. As I've said, I would have liked to see Mace chopping off Palpy's hands as Palpy's mumbling that stuff to Anakin about Anakin having to "make a choice" and having the power "to save the one you love". You know...eliminate Palpy's ability to use Force lightning. But then it wouldn't be the quite so interesting around here

that would have been a easy solution. No Hands , no fighting. Mace went too the Extreme.

 

Both Obi Wan vs. Grievous and Mace vs. Sidious are kill or be killed scenarios. Mace was going to arrest Palatine at the beginning, even after they dueled he was still going to. Once the lightning starts the arrest scenario, goes out the window. No pun intended. Mace was fighting for his life, so was Obi Wan. You could say the same for Sidious, if you believe he was in that predictament, and the same for Grievous. Those opinions are based on your own sympathies regarding the characters, and where your allegiance lies.

 

No more name calling or bans will be doled out. I don't care who started it, it ends now. This is everyone's first and last warning.

I agree with is decision, but I do feel it was wrong due to Anakin being there. Had he not been there, then I support it whole heartedly.

 

There is NO explicit statement from a reliable source in any movie confirming that Jedi do not kill unarmed combatants

You sound like a broken record. it is VERY VERY VERY infered all throughout the PT. sorry you choose to be ignore this fact.


Yes, Tubbs. nobody verbally said that .


Happy now?

 

Yes very much so.

 

Arrest was offered. It was implied.

Obi-Wan drops down to the level and says "hello There". (He doesn't attack)

Grevious first tells his droids to attack , Obi-dispatches them and then tell sGrevious "YOUR MOVE".

His move could have been surrender.

Obi-DID try to take him peacefully.

It was Grevious who said "You foool, I have been trained in your Jedi arts blah blah blah...and whoops out the four sabers.

At that point...alll bets are off. He was basically saying "I'd rather die!"

 

Sad that you did'nt accept that we acknowleged that a page ago though.

 

Just because Anakin's quote is detrimental to your case doesn't make him an unreliable source. In fact, as M_S has pointed out, given his situation he is probably the most reliable source in the movie on this point. Anakin wanted revenge against Dooku and so killing him was what he wanted. Furthermore Palpatine was telling him that it was the right thing to do. Now if you just did something that you wanted to do and you're being told by an authority figure who you admire and trust that it was the right thing to do, would you suddenly make up a rule that said what you did is wrong and use it to mentally punish yourself for what you just did? Of course not. The fact is that if it wasn't true that killing an unarmed person was against the Jedi way then Anakin would never have brought it up and instead would have reveled in finally getting the revenge he desired and in doing what was right from is POV (by this I mean that without a jedi mandate that what he did was wrong the only real influence to dictate whether that was right or wrong was Palpatine's so he would have excepted Palpatine's position since he respected and admired him so much).

Face it tubbs, you don't have a leg to stand on. Anakin's statement on the Invisible Hand proves you wrong and he is reliable in this manner.

 

All you've shown is that Anakin FELT that Jedi don't kill unarmed people. Similar to M_S' opinions this is not solid proof that the rule exists.

Again, police can give you flowers before they read you your rights; that doesn't mean THEY HAVE TO. There are just as many cases of jedi killing unarmed combatants as there are of jedi arresting.

Also to the point raised earlier: "THEREFORE, MACE HAS TO KILL THE BAD GUY. Not arrest. KILL.

Absolutely wrong. he was seemingly defeated begging for his life. Mace or Anakin never knew he was still Dangerous at that time. "

Is that why Mace said, "He's too dangerous to be left alive"?

 

Thanks for the clarification, darth-sinister. I know I would have felt more comfortable had I been Mace if Anakin had actually looked like he was going to do something to help subdue Palps - particularly when Palps cackled, "Nooooooo! You will die!" while shooting Force lightning. However, I see your point of view.

 

Why would Anakin feel this way if the Jedi didn't tell him this is the case? He feels guilty about what he did because he believes he went against the Jedi way. Now why would he believe something about the Jedi that would make him feel guilty and ashamed if they didn't make it the point extremely clear to him? The fact is that no one is going to believe in a rule of their organization that they routinely violate unless the organization had told them that was the rule. So based on the circumstances surrounding the quote, it is clear that this is not some conclusion Anakin came to on his own, but rather a statement that was clearly drilled into him by the Jedi.

Yes but an officer who chooses to do this wouldn't explicitly say that giving flowers before reading you your rights is the police way, so your analogy here has no bearing. And correct me if I'm wrong but the only example of a Jedi killing an unarmed combatant that you've given is when Mace kills Jango, which I don't think Jango was unarmed. I don't recall anyone taking out his wrist flamethrowers explicitly so as far as Mace knew he still had them. Jango already tried to kill Mace repeatedly, and waiting to see if he's going to fry you before you take action is hardly the best move. Besides, even if Jango was unarmed this once instance doesn't disprove that killing unarmed individuals is against the Jedi way. It could simply be a case of Mace breaking the rules (if I go steal something is that proof that there is no law against theft?).