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[20,000] Magnum Opus: The Parallels of Jacen Solo and HIM Emperor Palpatine

Discussion in 'Literature' started by dp4m, Aug 30, 2005.

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  1. dp4m

    dp4m Chosen One star 10

    Nov 8, 2001
    This thread's been a long time in coming.

    The first thing any reader of this thread should probably acknowledge is this: Emperor Palpatine (aka Darth Sidious) is evil. The Sith are evil. This was the crux and intent of the Star wars films. If you do not believe that -- whether or not you believe the Empire was "Evil" -- then, as Obi-Wan might say, you really are lost.

    There will be no using Wizards of the Coast statistics to point out how Vergere cannot be a Jedi Spirit.
    There will be no mentioning of Vergere speaking Sith.
    There will be no describing "powers" as Light Side or Dark Side according to RPG rules.
    Game terms will be presented as an addendum to those who care, but will not be germane to the debate.

    There will only be hard, canonical fact beyond which you only have the RPG information to bolster my conclusions.

    Many thanks to those who assisted me in research, due to many of my books remaining packed after seven months of a new apartment: Blithe, ChildofWinds, Jedi Ben and JediJSolo (for attempting to slow me down by not doing research :p)

    UNLESS SPECIFICALLY NOTED, all emphasis belongs to the source and not myself.

    Bearing that in mind, here are the comparisons between the most successful Sith Lord in history (with apologies to Darth Revan) and the most successful Jedi Knight of the Young Jedi Knights.


    "You are a horrible student, Jacen Solo. You listen but you do not learn..." - Akanah Pell, Adept of the White Current

    Training Methodology

    Here are some of the training methods that each of the protagonists undertook when confronted with the vagaries of the Force...

    Emperor Palpatine:[blockquote]"... if one is to understand the great mystery, one must study all its aspects, not just the dogmatic, narrow view of the Jedi. If you wish to become a complete and wise leader, you must embrace a larger view of the Force." - Revenge of the Sith film.

    "Palpatine became convinced the Dark Side was ignored because few had the courage to pay the price it demanded. Since the Dark Side didn't lend itself to sharing and other such weak-minded attitudes, there had not been organizations of Dark Side servants to endure the ages. There was no great collection of Dark Side lore, nor any gathering of it's masters. Realizing the task that lay before him, Palpatine knew he must begin at once to attain control over the Dark Side.

    With the resources of a galaxy at his disposal, he gathered the greatest works of knowledge from over a million worlds. He studied the Force in all its guises throughout the galaxy, whether it was the shamanism of Jarvashqline or the tales of the Tyia. Coupled with perversions of the secrets he ripped from the living minds of the Jedi he captured during the Purge, he learned more than he expected." -- Dark Empire Sourcebook (hardcover, p. 64)[/blockquote]
    Jacen Solo[blockquote]"If that's where the Force leads me. But right now I'd like to spend some time among some other Force users--the Jenasaari, the Theran Listeners, the Sunsei....maybe even try to find out where the Fallanassi disappeared to." -- The Unifying Force (hardcover, p. 514)[/blockquote]

    Views On The Force:

    Here are some of the choice views of those people who have instructed Jacen Solo over his new view of the Force until he accomplishes his own vision of the Force, as compared to the estimable Emperor Palpatine...

    Emperor Palpatine[blockquote]Darth Sidious was also thinking about the Jedi.

    Their fire was dying in the galaxy; of that there was no doubt. For more than a thousand generations they had been the self-appointed paladins of the commonweal, but that was coming to an end. And the pathetic fools, blinded by their own hypocrisy, could not see the truth of this.

    It was right and fitting that this be so, just as it was right and fitting that the instrument of their downfall be the Sith.

    The few pedants and scholars who even k
  2. Zebra3

    Zebra3 Jedi Master star 5

    Aug 28, 2004
    Awesome topic dp4m (I agree, BTW)! Can't wait to see where this one goes :)

    And congrats on the big 20,000! =D=

    BIG_BAD_JEDI_MAN Jedi Youngling star 3

    Aug 9, 2002
    While I very rarely agree with anything you say, dp4m, I have to say that the effort and research you put into this smear campaign ;) is astounding, and even makes a helluva lot of sense. In all seriousness, bravo, and congrats on the milestone.
    You even had me convinced, up until the point where you got to the Dark Side Compendium, which is where I think you began to generalize and grasp at straws a little.

    Your examples for the Book of Anger, while justified on their own, ignore much that came after. Vergere's quote by itself is proof of your argument, but as demonstrated later on through TR and the rest of the NJO, Jacen has indeed put limitations on himself and the use of his emotions, limitations nearly identical to those of the Jedi: he won't use the Force to kill (Omni not withstanding, but that's a whole other topic for debate, which I'll stay out of for now), he won't use the Force to dominate the wills of other beings (at least not any further than the usual Jedi Suggestion), and he won't use the Force simply to gain power for himself and entirely for his own selfish ends; that power has been used for the good of the galaxy.

    The Weakness of Inferiors is a stronger argument, though, and you're right that, at the moment, it seems that Jacen might be falling into some of those pitfalls. However, Jacen's apparent arrogance and condemnation of the weak has nothing to do with domination, as the Book suggests, but rather with responsibility for the power that the Jedi can bring to bear, power that their code keeps them from misusing. Power does indeed corrupt, but in a choice between Jedi and politicians, Jedi are the lesser of the two evils, because they have a greater understanding of it.

    The Creation of Monsters evidence you provide is, as you admit, circumstancial, so I really have no right to argue against this, as there is no evidence either way, as of yet.

    The Minutiae part is just a bit of a reach, as any Jedi can and will use Force projection. I seem to remember Corran doing something similar in "I, Jedi", and no one ever thinks he's evil.

    Again, awesome work and awesome argument, but I'm still not convinced (which is probably due in part to my own stubborness). As long as this thread doesn't turn into a series of character-bashing, "I tink Jacen is a wuss cuz he dont like fighting and is evil cuz he follows Potentium" or anything like that, I can't wait to see where this goes and what the rest of DN will add to this.
  4. dp4m

    dp4m Chosen One star 10

    Nov 8, 2001
    The Dark Side Compendium is designed to show Jacen's behavior over time, really.

    By Traitor and through Destiny's Way he had finally succumbed and was, as Palpatine said, using his anger with intelligent control. Remember that Destiny's Way was post-Traitor and Jacen has shown no deviation from that path. By The Joiner King, he's fully on the path of The Weakness of Inferiors, if not some portion of The Creation of Monsters.

    The minutiae portion is just amusing, but Jacen's desire to show himself as a looming presence mirrors that of the Emperor's desire to appear larger than everyone else (as demonstrated by his "personal" hologram setting).

    BIG_BAD_JEDI_MAN Jedi Youngling star 3

    Aug 9, 2002
    The Dark Side Compendium is designed to show Jacen's behavior over time, really.

    By Traitor and through Destiny's Way he had finally succumbed and was, as Palpatine said, using his anger with intelligent control. Remember that Destiny's Way was post-Traitor and Jacen has shown no deviation from that path. By The Joiner King, he's fully on the path of The Weakness of Inferiors, if not some portion of The Creation of Monsters.

    If (and that's a big IF) Jacen were to follow this guideline, then yes, you would totally correct in your reasoning. However, I still don't see Jacen using his power or knowledge to dominate and subvert like Palpatine did. And as I'm sure you'll agree, anger can indeed be a powerful motivating factor for good, if properly applied and not misused (whatever that means). Palpatine was indeed evil to the core, and his idea of "intelligent control" was using his anger to lash out at those around him for whatever reasons he may of had for becoming evil. Jacen has used his control over his anger for the salvation of others, as in TR when he saved the girl from the tunnel beast (and yes, he did lash out at the Vong later on, but he later admitted he was wrong to do so), and also in DW, when he tried to save Jaina. I'm sure he'll come dangerously close, to keep things interesting, but if anything I think he's becoming too much of a Jedi (which, it can be argued, could also lead to this, but you know what I mean). In any case, I'm sure it will be resolved by Swarm War, or at least moderately so.
  6. Blithe

    Blithe Jedi Master star 4

    Jun 24, 2003
    If dp4m doesen't mind, just a little addendum I thought I'd throw in there....
    [blockquote]"For a moment all of the cosmic tumblers had clicked into place, and light and dark sides became something he could balance within himself, without having to remain on one side or the other." - pg. 470 TUF [emphasis mine] [/blockquote]

    Place beside....

    [blockquote]Dooku believes that one can draw from both sides of the Force eqaully--light and dark--to achieve perfect balance. So long as he is not tempted to one side or the other, he can stay the course and harness the the kind of terrific power needed to change the galaxy. SWRPG RCRB, EU Dooku articel, [emphasis mine] [/blockquote]

    And to add on to something else dp was saying.....

    [blockquote]Jacen: "Of course. Who else can we trust to wield our power? We must follow our own consciences."
    -- Dark Nest: The Joiner King (softcover, p. 323)

    "His apprehensive colleagues in the Jedi Order believe no one can call upon the power of the dark side without being corrupted. Dooku assures himself that his keen mind, pure intent, and strong moral compass will see him through the perilous journey. - SWRPG RCRB, Dooku Bio, [emphasis mine] [/blockquote]

    Palpatine isn't the only Sith Lord Jacen Solo has striking similarities too....
  7. Whitey

    Whitey Jedi Master star 6

    Jan 26, 2003
    dp4m, I love you. In the straight way, of course.
  8. dp4m

    dp4m Chosen One star 10

    Nov 8, 2001
    No slash plz.


    But, honestly?

    "I know."
  9. Rohniss

    Rohniss Jedi Padawan star 4

    May 9, 2005
    all ive got to say is.

    "I pledge myself to your teachings"

    "What is thy bidding my Master"

    I also love you in the straightest way possible.
  10. Whitey

    Whitey Jedi Master star 6

    Jan 26, 2003
    *single tear*
  11. -myndonos-

    -myndonos- Jedi Youngling star 1

    Nov 1, 2004
    Amazing job dp4m =D=

  12. CeiranHarmony

    CeiranHarmony Jedi Master star 5

    May 10, 2004

    you won´t ever give up,d4pm, would you? lol.. I will watch and be amused.

    but something on this topic:

    you are right.. jacens view is like palpatines in many ways, if not in all.

    we have 2 different mindsets.

    1) dark/light


    2) potentium

    it is not possible to argue one above the other because both can exist, and be right as proven in another topic where I helped to make an essay of a fellow member.

    so we only might discuss each view independently from the other, or if you want to connect them, you have to remember one important fact.

    the dark/light view we all know, but the potentium emcompasses dark, light and all other views or rainbow colors that might be there. so no wonder that it contains, too, dark side lore, aside from others. this is no proof of it being evil. or any user being evil. as stated in other potentium discussions, not the powers and lore matters if one is dark or not, but other points. control, reasons behind actions and emotions, etc. for details look up the other potentium topics.

    so your points are interesting and well collected, but they don´t proov evilness or wrongness of the potentium. just that it encompasses all, even the dark side and its lore as one of many parts. it isn´t solely dark. potentium users can be light or dark, if approached with your point of view, but that depends on factors I mentioned above or in other topics.

    enjoy the discussion nevertheless ;)
  13. GrandAdmiralJello

    GrandAdmiralJello Comms Admin ❉ Moderator Communitatis Litterarumque star 10 Staff Member Administrator

    Nov 28, 2000
    Interesting analysis, though I admit I was drawn in by the "HIM" part more than anything. I'll standy by and contribute any comments I have later in the discussion. I do have to say, though, that I wish I knew about this policy earlier. Now I have to wait for 30,000. :p

    Though one thing I might say, and this is pure opinion so I won't get into a discussion on it, is that I don't necessarily see Jacen Solo following in the Emperor's footsteps, but simply going in a similar direction.
  14. dp4m

    dp4m Chosen One star 10

    Nov 8, 2001
    I put in the HIM ("His Imperial Majesty" for those who don't know) specifically with you in mind. Didn't want the pro-Empire folks having a cow... ;)
  15. Fingolfin_Noldor

    Fingolfin_Noldor Jedi Padawan star 4

    Aug 10, 2004
    Interesting way at looking at it. But yes, Jacen is beginning to sound a lot like Palpatine and extremely arrogant. I was utterly dismayed at their attitudes in The Joiner King.

    Not to mention, Kreia.. somehow walked that fine line too.
  16. VaapadMaster

    VaapadMaster Jedi Youngling star 2

    Aug 12, 2004
    Firstly, congrats on 20 000. Secondly, an interesting essay. It shows that you certainly did put a lot of time into research.

    For now, I'll just give a few quick points on the Dark Side Compendium parallels.

    Book of Anger
    I certainly do agree that anger is quite a potent emotion. It seems that Jacen has used this from time to time, as has any Jedi. However, he's surrendered to the Force far more times than he's used anger to fuel his power. Surrendering to the Force, is not anger, in fact, it as an emotionless void. Perhaps the only term we can use to describe it, as far as we know, is serenity. The Emperor solely uses anger, hatred, and rage to fuel his power.

    Weakness of Inferiors
    There is some truth to what you say, but by now I'm convinced that this arrogance is more to do with Denning's style of writing, rather than intent. We might have to wait and see for the remaining two portions of the Dark Nest trilogy, and the Legacy of the Force arc to be quite certain about it.

    Creation of Monsters

    "...Instead, focus on instituting controlling weaknesses into each and every beast you construct. Make it strong where you are weak, but weak where you are strong. It must have a fatal flaw that you--and only you--know how to exploit." -- The Dark Side Sourcebook (hardcover, p. 110)

    "- Jacen has always had an affinity with animals.
    - Jacen's escapades with the amphistaves.
    - Jacen's deal-making with the dhuryam.
    - It is currently unclear on the nature of Jacen's involvement with the creation of the new structure of Killik society."

    The only one of the above that I can see as matching with Palpatine's teachings, is "deal-making with the dhuryam". Jacen did use the dhuryam from time to time to cause the Yuuzhan Vong grievances. But this connection he shared with the dhuryam, was more like a partner in crime, rather than a slave to his will.

    Possibly the Killik society structure could also parallel, but that remains to be seen.
  17. dp4m

    dp4m Chosen One star 10

    Nov 8, 2001
    Except that his *belief* that he can use strong emotions (and specifically anger) to fuel his power when he needs to is unchanged.

    Combined with the fact that he's now focusing on his own desires first... well, as we know the Jedi are selfish, only looking inwards. Oh, no wait, that's the Sith...[blockquote]ANAKIN: The Sith rely on their passion for their strength. They think inward, only about themselves. -- Revenge of the Sith film[/blockquote]

    Not to mention, the ever popular Sith Code:[blockquote]Peace is a lie
    There is only passion
    Through passion I gain strength
    Through strength I gain power
    Through power I gain victory
    Through victory my chains are broken
    The Force shall set me free[/blockquote]
    Compared with Vergere's teachings and Jacen's seeming adoption of those techniques... well, doesn't leave too much to the imagination there.
  18. VaapadMaster

    VaapadMaster Jedi Youngling star 2

    Aug 12, 2004
    I agree that he has used emotions. It's been a while since I read the NJO series, as is the case for most people, but as far as I remember, Jacen did not use anger to fuel his power in the last few novels on the story arc. All he did was surrender to the Force.

    Sure he serves his desires, but his desires ultimately are to serve the Force. Jacen is not thinking of himself.
  19. Thrawn McEwok

    Thrawn McEwok Co-Author: Essential Guide to Warfare star 6 VIP

    May 9, 2000
    dp: Peace is a lie

    Just for fun; funny - that's what the Korunnai say. The darkness of the jungle may be different than the darkness of the Sith, but the darkness of the people who live in the jungle looks pretty similar, if you ask me... ;)

    VM?: but his conception of the Force is in itself the product of his own thought-processes...

    Can I juggle out a few random thoughts for people to catch? Jacen is Dooku; Jacen is Palpatine; Jacen may also be every Sith Lord from KotOR, too...

    Is Jacen Solo the new Darth Vader?

    Secondly; who was the Sith Apprentice between Maul and Tyrannus? o_O

    Can you turn someone into a Sith, but just not tell them?

    And if Jacen is a Sith, and he's also a New Jedi...

    ... whither the New Jedi?

    Brilliant thread, dp!!

    - The Imperial Ewok
  20. Excellence

    Excellence Jedi Knight star 7

    Jul 28, 2002

    Disagree---of course. :p

    While Denning made Jacen's Joiner status deliberately unknown, it was the deliberate aspect that makes me suspicious. I'm thinking, despite all evidence to the contrary, it is not in fact Jacen who's darkening.

    Why? Recently on TV, I successfully guessed the Home and Away Staker identity. Out of the 6 names, two were regular casts, two were utterly unlikely, and the other two possibilities. And when Sally got knocked off the ladder to hospital . . . and nurse asked right to your face in a careful voice, was there any stalker clues left behind. There you go. But George Martin too likes to write with a pattern; once you work it out, you can accurately predict who wins a battle, large or small. My point is . . .

    . . . When someone tries hard to make one name stand out, look to the other quieter one. Thul's last line to Leia blossomed innuendo to me . . . and there's no RPG law saying you need to know your own Joiner status. Forcefulness plays a key role in Joinering, and your own light/dark in your subconsciousness. Jacen may parallel Sidious, but it's too obvious. Look to one of the Skywalker names---

    Of course, anything can be redited from now till publication, so that must be Skywalkered in mind.

    Why is this a sticky thread?
  21. CeiranHarmony

    CeiranHarmony Jedi Master star 5

    May 10, 2004
    I agree with you Exellence ;) well spoken
  22. Darth Guy

    Darth Guy Chosen One star 10

    Aug 16, 2002
    Is there a HER Palpatine? [face_thinking]
  23. -myndonos-

    -myndonos- Jedi Youngling star 1

    Nov 1, 2004
    Jacen cant be a would be too obvious

    Jacen cant be a would be too obvious

    Lomi cant be the would be too obvious

    [insert any opinion on any topic] would be too obvious


    Just because something is "too obvious" does NOT mean that it can/can't will/wont happen.

    basing your argument against dp4m's Parallels? with your own opinion on such matters is not solid justification for fact.
    (yes i know "everyone has the right to their own opinion")

    What dp4m's Parallels? show is the facts. NO it does not mean that Jacen is a sith (I believe he is well on his way to becoming one). It is to show you the *gasp* parallels of Jacen and Palpatine.
  24. Excellence

    Excellence Jedi Knight star 7

    Jul 28, 2002

    Many are the literary writing tricks recognised that comes with careful and wide reading, my dove.
    Lets wait and see. January's not far. ;)

    (This thread page is werid, scrolling too far right!)
  25. NaboosPrincess

    NaboosPrincess Manager Emeritus star 6 VIP - Former Mod/RSA

    May 14, 2001
    Excellent effort, dp4m. This is certainly a stellar 20,000th post thread. Congratulations!

    It seems there are indeed several parallels between Jacen and Palpatine. I don?t think these parallels represent conclusive evidence of Jacen becoming the next Sith lord, though. I don?t think we can even say he holds the same views as Palpy. There?s so much more to Jacen Solo than the quotes/instances you pulled out. Essentially, it boils down to Jacen still having a heart. He's very concerned for others. Compare this to Palpatine, who didn't really care for anyone besides himself, used dark side techniques or practices almost daily, and was full of anger and aggression. Jacen has never exhibited any of these signs on a regular basis.

    The biggest issue I have with the post is the suggestion Jacen = Sith Lord because he has spent the past five years exploring various Force traditions. Jacen is seeking out knowledge beyond his comfort zone of relatives, friends, and other familiar Jedi masters. How can this possibly be an evil thing? One of the quotes up there says Palpatine began to learn because he ?knew he must begin at once to attain control over the Dark Side.? I don?t think Jacen is seeking knowledge because he wants control of the Force. He just wants to learn more about it; to find the answers to some of his questions.

    It will be interesting to see how Jacen?s character develops in the coming novels. Until then, I think it?s far too early to be calling him the next Sith Lord. It's really not all that surprising to find that two Force users might hold a few beliefs in common. What we need to look at is the overall picture: their life experiences, character, and demeanor. Jacen has a respect for life and a desire for the greater good that I believe will keep him from becoming a Sith.
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