[20,000] Magnum Opus: The Parallels of Jacen Solo and HIM Emperor Palpatine

Palpatine cared for Anakin. Stover outright wrote this in his book (yes, yes, if he stops by he won't comment on the text, but Palpatine ran to check on Anakin).
Anakin cared for Padme, Obi-Wan, etc. I don't think that helped him any by the time it was too late.

Oh? "by respecting his own desires first." HIS OWN. Not the Force's, his OWN desires. It's plain as day, man...

Oh, and Excellence, the thread explains why it's sticky.

 

Well then! Maybe I should read better!

 

Alright fine, I'll give you that. That quote does speak of his desires. However, Jacen's ultimate desire is balance in the galaxy. Balance in the galaxy translates to balance in the Force, which translates to the Will of the Force.

And as of now, Jacen is still empathetic to those who are inferior. Palpatine just wanted to enslave the known universe. Jacen's not becoming a Sith Lord anytime soon.

 

I agree that there are several similarities. But I'm mostly of the same opinion as BIG_BAD_JEDI_MAN. You can't generalize here. And I think T. Denning has something particular in mind by presenting Jacen in that way. And I don't think that it will be something evil.
Palpatine on the opposite was evil from the core, Jacen grew up in peace (until 16) with lots of friends (YJK) and a caring and loving family.
If you look further you can even find similarities between Jacen and Yoda. Didn't Yoda study the dark side in his long, long life to get a better understanding?
Nevertheless I admire your engagement in your research. And you certainly have a point.
In one way , I think, Palpatine was right: one must study all its aspects to come to a full understanding of the force. This can be done in an evil and selfish way (like the Emperor) or peaceful and in balance (Jacen). Only if you KNOW what raw power can be provided by the force you will be able to control it properly.

 

Well, one thing I'd like to point out, regarding Jacen's idea that the Jedi should only be answerable to themeselves. Fist off, who else should they answer to? Politicians? We saw how well that worked out in the PT. And logically, it's foolish to say that politicians should be able to tell the Jedi what to do; if politicians could be counted on to do the right thing, they wouldn't need Jedi, would they? Even Yoda agrees with Jacen. In the RotS novel, page 173, when Yoda learns of a proposed bill that would put the Jedi directly under the command of the Supreme Chancellor, he responds with, "Though nominally in command of the Council, the Senate may place him, the Jedi he cannont control. Moral our authority has always been; much more than simply legal. Simply follow orders, Jedi do not!" (emphisis added by me).

 

Palpatine cared for Anakin. Stover outright wrote this in his book (yes, yes, if he stops by he won't comment on the text, but Palpatine ran to check on Anakin).

I don't think that was compassion; more like "Anakin is my precious 20,000+ midichlorian doomsday weapon. I must save him."

And while you can draw similarities between Jacen and Palpatine, note the difference: compassion, which that same RotS book talks about. Selfless love, as opposed to the sort where you Force-strangle your wife because the dumb broad doesn't appreciate the things you do for her, and oh yeah, she burnt your supper too.

Jacen is and has always been big on empathy. And as long as we're drawing parallels, let's compare that to Obi-Wan, a Jedi who gains victory through understanding rather than a straight-up butt-kicking. (This is also made quite clear in the RotS novel.) Kenobi would rather talk than fight. He forms force-bonds with animals. He rejects absolutes. He goes off as a hermit for years.

Sound familiar?

 

It seems to me that there are parallels between Stover's Obi-Wan in ROTS and Denning's Jacen in TJK, especially in regards to their belief about going with the "flow" of the Force.

Plus, Jacen and Obi-Wan have beards. There's that too. Palpatine doesn't have a beard. At least not one that I know of.

 

While I agree that Jacen has a lot of compassion, he is willing to do what he feels is nessacary- that's why Jacen is dangerous. In his mind, he is answerable only to himself and the Force. It's like a medieval crusader massacring a villiage in the name of God. Chances are, Jacen will turn dark. The question is for how long and how catatrophic.


About who the Jedi answer to, the moral authority thing dosen't work for the NJO- because to them, morality is relative. Do you really want an order of highly-skilled powerful warlords who police the galaxy controlled by a man who condones to the torture of those under his command?


As for "making the Force bigger than light and dark, because the Yuuzhan Vong don't exist in it", how does that work? The YV did and do exist in the Force, they were simply 'exiled' (a concept I find just a bit stupid). Do dosen't that mean the same rules of light and dark still apply?

The Jedi in NJO took the easy way out. Instead of fighting, of doing their duty, they whined about the Force. Then when they had to fight, they collectively went dark. Eventually, this is going to bite them in the ass.

 

Heh. "The Weakness of Inferiors suggests that by reading the book, the reader has somehow been made custodian of galactic civilization, and that by applying the Emperor's teachings the reader can bring peace and order to the galaxy."

Also, didn't Anakin express the exact same interest in his picnic with Padme on Naboo in Attack of the Clones?

So did Anakin Skywalker, if you'd remember.

Ah, but as the Emperor taught: "True calm is only achieved through testing the limits of one's anger and passing through unscathed." Which is what Jacen had followed as of Destiny's Way -- or believed he had anyways. And controlling the power is exactly what Palpatine's POV was in DM:SH above.

The Shamans? No, not really. The Tyia stretch back to the very first SWRPG product (the original 1987 WEG 1st edition Star Wars Roleplaying Game), where they were the model for "Force Adepts" -- non-Jedi Force traditions to which a player might belong.

In other words, it's old-sk00l.

 

While I agree that Jacen has a lot of compassion, he is willing to do what he feels is nessacary- that's why Jacen is dangerous. In his mind, he is answerable only to himself and the Force. It's like a medieval crusader massacring a villiage in the name of God. Chances are, Jacen will turn dark. The question is for how long and how catatrophic.

Yes, Jacen is willing to what is necessary, within reason. As I said before, Jacen still adheres to the limitations placed on him by the Jedi code, as he won't kill or cause any undo harm. He is, ultimately, a decent and good human being. Even when he did let his anger overwhelm him when he lashed out at Vergere and the Vong in TR, he still didn't kill them. Your example, while valid in its point, isn't really appropriate for Jacen's character. If put in a situation like that, Jacen would find a way around it.

About who the Jedi answer to, the moral authority thing dosen't work for the NJO- because to them, morality is relative. Do you really want an order of highly-skilled powerful warlords who police the galaxy controlled by a man who condones to the torture of those under his command?

Morality is NOT relative. There is still right and wrong within the NJO. What is relative is the means to whatever end may be desired, a totally different thing. And when people here talk about Luke condoning torture, they seem to forget that he was sick to his stomach while doing it, but doing so saved countless lives. If they had more time, the Jedi could have found another way to figure out what they did, but seeing as how they were pressed, they were forced to use whatever methods they had at hand for the greater good.

The Jedi in NJO took the easy way out. Instead of fighting, of doing their duty, they whined about the Force. Then when they had to fight, they collectively went dark. Eventually, this is going to bite them in the ass.

So the easy way would have been to slaugther an entire race, simply because of their bizarre and violent religous beliefs? Had the Jedi not gained this greater understanding of the Force, they would have been guilty of genocide, which in turn would have led to more casualties on their side with the prolonged fighting. Jedi life is about sacrifice; this time, the Jedi sacrificed a bit of their beliefs in order to do the right thing, which is what they are doing now.

Ah, but as the Emperor taught: "True calm is only achieved through testing the limits of one's anger and passing through unscathed." Which is what Jacen had followed as of Destiny's Way -- or believed he had anyways. And controlling the power is exactly what Palpatine's POV was in DM:SH above.

In DW Jacen did not test his limits; he kept himself in check by leaving the Vong alive. When Danni was kidnapped in FH3, he could have slaughtered her kidnappers, but he didn't. If and when he uses the Force to kill, THEN you'll be onto something . If anyone is testing their limits, it's Luke, and he's doing it in the name of compassion and the greater good. So if Jacen is Palpatine, does that make Luke Vader?

 

Thats because he blacked out in his fit of rage....

 

Thats because he blacked out in his fit of rage....

Yes indeed, he lost concsious control of his actions, giving himself over to his more primal instincts. Essentially, he gave himself over to the Force, yet still, even in this state of being, he would not kill, whether it was his own inate goodness or the control of the Force itself. Either way, Jacen was meant for greater things than becoming a weapon of mass destruction.

 

Eh, if I am remembering Traitor correctly, what Blithe is saying is that he passed out/fainted and didn't finish the deed.

heh, so was Anakin!

 

Is this a game mechanic?

 

Vergere -?Out of control is just code for ?I don?t want to admit I?m the kind of person who would do such things?. It?s a lie?

Jacen defiantely intended to kill Vergere and the Vong. No matter how Vergere softened it. And the creature-dwellers....

Being sorry for it later does not make you a good person. Look at Anakin.

If Jacen had intended to kill them, he would have Force-strangled or Force-fried the lot of them. Instead, he just dropped part of a building on them. Not saying that was the right thing to do, but if he intended to kill them, there were much better and more efficient ways of doing it.

And everyone was saying that Anakin still had good in him, despite what he had done. Regret and repentance are a sign of good character, and while you're right that it doesn't necessarily mean they are good people, in Jacen and Anakin's case it does, because they didn't feel sorry for themselves, they felt sorry for what they had done to other people. If Palpatine ever felt sorry for anything, it was for the fact that he didn't get things done when he had the chance

 

Anakin at least had the luxury of having the single thing in the universe he cared about be someone other than himself; Jacen, thus far, has shown no direction in this regards...

You pretty much end up loving no one by loving everyone...

 

Anakin at least had the luxury of having the single thing in the universe he cared about be someone other than himself; Jacen, thus far, has shown no direction in this regards...

You pretty much end up loving no one by loving everyone...

Like the man said, there's love and then there's love. And I think it becomes apparent by the end of RotS that Anakin's love, however pure and meaningful it might have been, was guided by selfish motivations, hence the maniacal screaming of "SHE'S MINE, YOU CAN'T HAVE HER!" And while you're right in saying that Jacen has no singular focus for his love (as of yet ), his compassion for all is keeping him from falling into this same trap.

 

Anakin at least had the luxury of having the single thing in the universe he cared about be someone other than himself; Jacen, thus far, has shown no direction in this regards...

He doesn't love his own twin sister? He doesn't mourn for the brother he lost? Joiner King says he has only just begun to accept Anakin's death, eight years later. You don't think he cares for his parents and his uncle's family? It's probably true that he doesn't yet love anyone with the intensity with which Anakin Skywalker loved (assuming it really was love) Padme, but he certainly cares for people other than himself.

 

Sure, he loves his family. Who doesn't? But does it drive his motivations? Nope, thoe are pretty much focused inwards.

 

Have a look at this quote from TUF:

"He had become so powerful as to be dangerous to his own galaxy, for he could see clearly the temptations of the dark side and the desire to force one's will on others -- to so completely dominate that all life would kowtow him.

He purged his mind of all pride and evil intent and entered a moment of unadulterated bliss, where he seemed to have unlocked the very secrets of existence."
-The Unifying Force p. 472

 

That's right, because pride goeth before the fall.

Makes great literary sense, no? I have no clue how McE completely missed that one before.

Of course, you're trying to prove the opposite, methinks. But that was Jacen's limited POV of "opening himself up to the Force" for which we do not know which SIDE showed him the bliss he was experiencing...


... especially given that he's now in the habit of forcing his will on others.