[20,000] Magnum Opus: The Parallels of Jacen Solo and HIM Emperor Palpatine

Discussion in 'Literature' started by dp4m, Aug 30, 2005.

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  1. Rouge77 Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    May 11, 2005
    star 5
    well, this is a nice paradox indeed. but..
    what if it was meant for him to do right this? what if it wasn´t him determining it? the force may work beyong time and space.


    His actions determined it, but the Force could well have led him to do what he did. Certainly it seemed that he only wanted to know what had happened and then, when the opportunity arose, to tell her mother where to follow him and the other young Jedi.

    what if Jacen didn´t save raynar and co, but rather saw a vision of the past through the eyes of another being? like Quinlan Vos can, when touching things or people.

    Certainly what he did had to be related to Vos´ power, but as Raynar says he saw Jacen, I think that he really affected the past. Changed the past may be a wrong term, as it had already happened! (I really don´t like time travel stories much because of these paradoxes...)

    But, in most cases, visions show something we fear, fears coming reality. or dreams and hopes (of balance) getting true, like with the choosen one prophecy. if we see something we fear, we should stop fearing.

    That was what Yoda said to Anakin, but to most of people, Anakin included, it isn´t enough. There are few people capable of that. In the SW, Jacen has become one of them.

    hey are alike in many things, like Palpatine said in episode 3. sith and jedi both use it for what they want / see as good. the only difference is that one side is egoistic and the other altruistic. though, I still think, maybe there are some sith with noble goals that just use the wrong methods.

    I think that there must have been a lot of Sith that have started with good intentions - I think those stories that make the Sith believe themselves evil are not very convincing - and have tried to do good, but who have been corrupted by the dark side - whether internal or external - and ended eventually pretty much as the stereotypical Sith.

    peace and order, yes, but the imperial way? etc. sith and jedi, both, have to learn some lessons. and maybe if they do they can truly become one. balanced. that´s why I think the Potentium encompasses Jedi AND Sith.

    If it would encompass both of them, it would have to include Sith teachings and I doubt that - except perhaps in the case of exceptional individuals - Jedi and Sith teachings can co-exist. I think the Sith teachings would eventually "take over".

    houghts? this is what I hope and think about the future. including the legacy series maybe. though no real sith lymia might bring back some sith lore and unify it with the jedi. when they understand in the end they are alike, one. and instead of being killed, she forgets her anger and is turned or joins the new order. well, difficult and I dunno how to pull this.. but it is something unexpected I hope for.

    Well, I don´t think that there will be reconciliation between Lumiya(who, I hope, will be a real Sith and not a Sith wannabe in the series) and the Jedi. Maybe Luke can bring her back to the light, but I doubt she can live. I think that her fate at best will be the same as her former master Darth Vader´s. Of course Sith lore could be united with Jedi in some other way. Jacen - the most likely major person to do so, I think Ben is far too young in the 9 initial LoTF books - could fall for some time to the dark side and then reconciled with the Jedi. I would like to see the Sith survive in some form - as bad as they tend to be, they have existed for 25 000 years.
  2. CeiranHarmony Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    May 10, 2004
    star 5
    "His actions determined it, but the Force could well have led him to do what he did. Certainly it seemed that he only wanted to know what had happened and then, when the opportunity arose, to tell her mother where to follow him and the other young Jedi."

    Yub, but I still think, that his mother might have just ignored or not got that message. It was one possibility of many futures. I don´t see it as determining. the force might have let him to send and her to recieve. and I don´t think Jacen determined the past for Raynar and co, maybe they determined his future? or the force did.

    "Certainly what he did had to be related to Vos´ power, but as Raynar says he saw Jacen, I think that he really affected the past. Changed the past may be a wrong term, as it had already happened! (I really don´t like time travel stories much because of these paradoxes...)"

    paradoxes, yeah. my brain hurts already. but I think the best explanation is still that there are things beyond time and space, like the force. the choosen one prophecy didn´t determine anakins future, or did it? well.. it was nature.

    "That was what Yoda said to Anakin, but to most of people, Anakin included, it isn´t enough. There are few people capable of that. In the SW, Jacen has become one of them."

    right, it is possible, but not many accomplished to win over their fears. still much to learn, this galaxy has.

    "I think that there must have been a lot of Sith that have started with good intentions - I think those stories that make the Sith believe themselves evil are not very convincing - and have tried to do good, but who have been corrupted by the dark side - whether internal or external - and ended eventually pretty much as the stereotypical Sith."

    right, I agree. sith believing themselves evil are mere darksiders, I think. sadists who enjoy pain. true sith like palpatine, vader, traya or few others were different.

    "If it would encompass both of them, it would have to include Sith teachings and I doubt that - except perhaps in the case of exceptional individuals - Jedi and Sith teachings can co-exist. I think the Sith teachings would eventually "take over"."

    nice thoughts, and yes that would been including sith teachings. how to do it is the question. I don´t think sith lore would take over. it would if the old jedi had tried this, but the new ones are on a way to be different. more open, closer to darkness and still not falling. they might manage it, though not all of them.
    but to understand on how integrating sith lore, we have to analyse what is dark, what is sith, etc.
    many would agree that sith and dark is paining others, hurting. but that isn´t the center of it. if taking into account what I said about sith and darkness we have this: egoistic nature. partially including sith nature is to allow egoistic stuff, like having a family, loving, instead of only serving others. I agree that that isn´t what most have in mind with the term sith, but I see it as part of it. the new jedi learned that already out of the old times. sith were partially right, jedi partially wrong. both sides right and wrong at some aspects. they already included stuff. they just need to unify more. if a Jedi can choose between a mission saving a colony in danger and holliday with his family, and he chooses the long overdue holliday, it is egoistic, selfish, but it isn´t dark per se. though it is a part of being sithy. egoism again. to unify jedi with sith lore doesn´t mean hurting others for fun. it means being selfish sometimes. to not only be altruistic. also it means for the jedis role in the galaxy. not only serve a government, but also themselves and the force. to actively, if needed, change and alter the government or influence it for the force's will and a better galaxy. not manipulating or controling it like the sith did, but also it means doing more than the old order did. no longer passiveness. but active and passive when needed. like Luke showed in TJK, it means being nice often, but if it requires to end a conflict to be harsh.. do it. not enjoying th
  3. Rouge77 Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    May 11, 2005
    star 5
    Yub, but I still think, that his mother might have just ignored or not got that message. It was one possibility of many futures.

    I didn´t thought about that. It´s true.

    I don´t think sith lore would take over. it would if the old jedi had tried this, but the new ones are on a way to be different. more open, closer to darkness and still not falling. they might manage it, though not all of them.

    Yes, that´s the problem. There would be born new Dark Jedi, and the question is, is it worth the risk?

    After being trained by the Emperor in the DE, Luke has knowledge of the Sith lore. Will he let it die with him or will he record it?

    egoistic nature. partially including sith nature is to allow egoistic stuff, like having a family, loving, instead of only serving others.

    I don´t think that having a family is partially including Sith nature, as the Sith rarely have family after the fall of the Sith Empire of Naga Sadow - Freedon Nadd being an exception. Maybe there is a reason to it - in SotE Vader can´t give himself totally to the dark side, partly because he is happy about Luke. Maybe family would be a weak point for a Sith and, like the redemption of Vader shows, a strong point for a Jedi. Positive love can protect one from the dark side.

    to unify jedi with sith lore doesn´t mean hurting others for fun. it means being selfish sometimes. to not only be altruistic. also it means for the jedis role in the galaxy. not only serve a government, but also themselves and the force. to actively, if needed, change and alter the government or influence it for the force's will and a better galaxy. not manipulating or controling it like the sith did, but also it means doing more than the old order did. no longer passiveness. but active and passive when needed. like Luke showed in TJK, it means being nice often, but if it requires to end a conflict to be harsh.. do it.

    I partially agree, but it´s problematic to know - at least for outsiders - when the Jedi are following the will of the Force and when they are being driven by just their own lust for power. And as TJK shows, even the Jedi themselves can´t agree which is the right thing to do. The Jedi after all are members of their own society and do have responsibility towards it, not only towards the Force. On the other hand, the Clone Wars showed that blindly following the orders of the government is also a wrong thing to do. In this case there is no absolute truth.

    is it right or wrong to influence the galaxy for peace and justice, for more harmony, or would it be better to stay monks and not work in the galaxy.

    Basically I think that the right thing to do is to try to influence the galaxy for peace, justice etc. The methods to achieving these goals are a different thing. And it has to be aknowledged that even the Jedi can be and will sometimes be wrong. They are not infallible.

    so after all, some ghosts might make Lymia a Sithlord.. or the reborn emperor might have done that. but GLs quotes tell other things, hmm..

    I hope that she will be a real Sith Lord, not just a pretender. It would be insulting towards the readers for them to read 9 books believing that she is the real deal and in the end to be shown that she just claimes to be. What comes to Lucas, I read some time ago one of his interviews, where he basically said that the galaxy would be a dull place after ROTJ and so there isn´t any stories for him to tell in the post-ROTJ period. So what he says is not always the absolute truth.
  4. CeiranHarmony Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    May 10, 2004
    star 5
    "Yes, that´s the problem. There would be born new Dark Jedi, and the question is, is it worth the risk?"

    well, that´s the question, and I have no answer. if not that way, nature will compensate naturally and darksiders will always be there one way or another. but that way it might be more controled, earlier recognised by the Jedi. or helped.

    "After being trained by the Emperor in the DE, Luke has knowledge of the Sith lore. Will he let it die with him or will he record it?"

    I think he recorded it into his holocron. after all he lets his jedi teacher tionne keep sith artefacts and holocrons. they could have destroyed them.

    "I don´t think that having a family is partially including Sith nature, as the Sith rarely have family after the fall of the Sith Empire of Naga Sadow - Freedon Nadd being an exception. Maybe there is a reason to it - in SotE Vader can´t give himself totally to the dark side, partly because he is happy about Luke. Maybe family would be a weak point for a Sith and, like the redemption of Vader shows, a strong point for a Jedi. Positive love can protect one from the dark side."

    having a family is not sith nature, but it is egoistic, and that is what the sith center on most of the time. that I meant. family was just example for egoism instead of serving others without family ties binding one. family is a weak point for sith as for jedi, yes. as is love. yes vader redemption shows this, but I just used it as example. my other examples might be better then.

    "I partially agree, but it´s problematic to know - at least for outsiders - when the Jedi are following the will of the Force and when they are being driven by just their own lust for power. And as TJK shows, even the Jedi themselves can´t agree which is the right thing to do. The Jedi after all are members of their own society and do have responsibility towards it, not only towards the Force. On the other hand, the Clone Wars showed that blindly following the orders of the government is also a wrong thing to do. In this case there is no absolute truth."

    yub. every jedi has to decide for himself/herself/itself. and outsiders can´t know, yes. they have to trust. and trust is rare in a wartorn galaxy. so not only the jedi but also the galaxy and nonforceusers have to learn much and change. right there is no absolute truth. everybody has to solve it alone. I agree.

    "Basically I think that the right thing to do is to try to influence the galaxy for peace, justice etc. The methods to achieving these goals are a different thing. And it has to be aknowledged that even the Jedi can be and will sometimes be wrong. They are not infallible."

    right. I agree. though, out of wrongs they learn.

    "I hope that she will be a real Sith Lord, not just a pretender. It would be insulting towards the readers for them to read 9 books believing that she is the real deal and in the end to be shown that she just claimes to be. What comes to Lucas, I read some time ago one of his interviews, where he basically said that the galaxy would be a dull place after ROTJ and so there isn´t any stories for him to tell in the post-ROTJ period. So what he says is not always the absolute truth."

    yubyub. I have to agree. though, it would be too obvious for legacy. maybe there is another twist. or she isn´t the main enemy, just one enemy? We have to wait for more information, but I am looking forward to her appearance. she was cool in the marvel comics, and in the sw galaxy magazine short story of a long time ago.
  5. Rouge77 Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    May 11, 2005
    star 5
    I think he recorded it into his holocron. after all he lets his jedi teacher tionne keep sith artefacts and holocrons. they could have destroyed them.

    I didn´t know that. Now I know, thanks.

    every jedi has to decide for himself/herself/itself. and outsiders can´t know, yes. they have to trust. and trust is rare in a wartorn galaxy. so not only the jedi but also the galaxy and nonforceusers have to learn much and change. right there is no absolute truth. everybody has to solve it alone.

    The problem is that for the good of all most people should arrive in the same kind of conclusions for the things to work out well. And of course, this seems unlikely.

    We have to wait for more information, but I am looking forward to her appearance.

    So do I.
  6. Kudzu Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Jun 18, 2005
    star 5
    Yep, Jacen's a bad kid. He's playing with something that's too big and too dangerous for him, and he's too arrogant to admit that even to himself. He has fooled himself until believing that he and he alone can harness and control the entirety of the Force itself.
  7. CeiranHarmony Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    May 10, 2004
    star 5
    "The problem is that for the good of all most people should arrive in the same kind of conclusions for the things to work out well. And of course, this seems unlikely."

    Right, this is unlikely. So what is needed to make it more possible? people have to learn.. go through some lessons, maybe even hard ones. loss, love, facing decisions and other stuff, similar or different from Jacens journey. everybody has to face other fears or challenges, because everybody has other things to learn, and some in common with others. but how will it get possible? how will they learn? the NJO showed us loss, crisis, war. Dark Nest shows us less pain, but moral dilemmas, philosophical learning, understanding, as well as manipulation, selfcontrol vs. giving oneself over to something or someone else. it shows us dangers of responsibility and giving it to others, as well as many other things. what will legacy bring? it is different from dark nest and the njo,otherwise it wouldn´t make sense to start a new era. well.. the njo opened the EU for major deaths and a new view upon the force. dark nest went further with including crisis that could rip families apart, deepening the new views dangers and advantages, the galaxy has changed and is still changing. now legacy might bring all this.. and go even further. it will go full circle.. and I think it doesn´t just mean bringing back old characters, or connections to the prequels. I hope the circle goes back to 25000 years ago... ending a shism that started a long time ago in a galaxy far far away.

    some thoughts that crossed my mind:

    vergeres words of a "skywalker legacy" and "3 generations of skywalker", that this is no good and not meant to be. they might have to do with it maybe? the skywalkers won´t be around forever to keep peace, to lead the jedi, to aid the government. people have to start learning themselves, and not give over responsibility to others. so.. maybe, and I think it would be hard for fans but nice for the galaxy, the skywalker rule over the jedi order and their peacekeeping in the galaxy has to end. so that it learns to do it itself.

    this is already hinted at with:
    -Ben Skywalker not wanting his force talent, not using it often if at all. breaking the line of his ancestors.
    -Jaina too busy to have a baby, well though I hope she will later still get a family.
    -Jacen separated but still attached to the Jedi in some way, learning for himself, knowing the galaxy has to do the same and sometimes it is best to not aid it. (see the moth tale of vergere in Traitor. it explains this well, how inaction sometimes can be better than action)
    -Luke creating a jedi council and no longer being the sole jedi leader, but still the most powerful in the force
    -Leia showing herself as true Jedi, no longer in politics as head of state.

    Another thing is, the Jedi rigged the elections in Destiny's Way and got Cal Omas elected. now he demands more and more of them. this might backfire and they realize that sometimes it would be better if the jedi let the galaxy do it, and not manipulating the currents flow. while I see some jedi choosing the active part, like others choose passive learning, the skywalkers will more and more retreat from the center stage, and watch, only seldom influencing. or.. if they do not want that, they´ll serve until death, and how soon that might come, I don´t know. the force has many ways..
  8. Rouge77 Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    May 11, 2005
    star 5
    So what is needed to make it more possible? people have to learn.. go through some lessons, maybe even hard ones. loss, love, facing decisions and other stuff, similar or different from Jacens journey. everybody has to face other fears or challenges, because everybody has other things to learn, and some in common with others.

    The YV war brought some measure of unity in the galaxy, but based in TJK it seems that at least the elite didn´t learn the lessons. The government and the conglomerations are as corrupt as before, and the galaxy is a poorer place to live. The war and the devastation it wrought could have brought on the galaxy as a whole same kind of change it brought in Jacen, but it didn´t. So I doubt that any positive rebirth can be achieved.

    now legacy might bring all this.. and go even further. it will go full circle.. and I think it doesn´t just mean bringing back old characters, or connections to the prequels. I hope the circle goes back to 25000 years ago... ending a shism that started a long time ago in a galaxy far far away.

    I like the connections to the prequels that are now being made, and would like see some of the old characters making appearances, but yes, agree with you in this. And the reconciliation between the Jedi and the Sith would be a good thing.

    vergeres words of a "skywalker legacy" and "3 generations of skywalker", that this is no good and not meant to be. they might have to do with it maybe? the skywalkers won´t be around forever to keep peace, to lead the jedi, to aid the government. people have to start learning themselves, and not give over responsibility to others. so.. maybe, and I think it would be hard for fans but nice for the galaxy, the skywalker rule over the jedi order and their peacekeeping in the galaxy has to end. so that it learns to do it itself.

    Yes, "Three generations now of Skywalkers, all strong in the Force! This is a Jedi dynasty! ..Can´t you see how governmemts will view this as a threat? Once it is possible for Jedi to leave their power to the children, the balance that exists between government and Jedi falls."

    I thought that Vergere was scared about the possibility that the government would turn against the Jedi more than the fact the Jedi had become something of a hereditary class of their own. She seemed to think - in my opinion - that the Jedi must be seen as dependent of the government, weaker than they are, so that they wouldn´t be seen as a threat by the government. But her view of course was created by her experience of living in the Old Republic.

    What comes to the Skywalker rule over the Jedi, it would of course be best that eventually Luke would be succeeded in power not by Ben or Jacen or Jaina but a true Jedi Council - and no shouting club of the Masters, as it was in TJK - that would wield the power. Those Skywalkers and Solos that would merit it by their own abilities would play important role like any other Jedi of their stature, but they would have no special role. But that would likely take generations, as the ranks of the Jedi are still few. Leia and Jaina most likely will eventually have important positions in the Order. What comes to Ben, I think he will eventually re-connect to the Force. Jacen - I don´t think his future will be that bright. He could continue on his current solitary path, but falling to the dark side or becoming a martyr of sorts are likelier, I think. Somehow he reminds me of Paul Atreides in Dune.

    Another thing is, the Jedi rigged the elections in Destiny's Way and got Cal Omas elected. now he demands more and more of them. this might backfire and they realize that sometimes it would be better if the jedi let the galaxy do it, and not manipulating the currents flow. while I see some jedi choosing the active part, like others choose passive learning, the skywalkers will more and more retreat from the center stage, and watch, only seldom influencing.

    I doubt that the Jedi can or will stop supporting the Galactic Alliance. Individual Jedi will, I think, but the Order won´t
  9. JediJSolo Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Jun 11, 2001
    star 4
    I see my post has been ignored. Y?all are assuming Jacen will fall to the Dark Side. He will not. The supposed parallels to Palpatine doesn?t exist in the first place.

    Palpatine preached dominance. Jacen simply refuses to be dominated. All instances that ?prove? he thinks himself superior to everyone else actually prove that Jacen is his own master. Think of it as arrogance if you like, but also recognize that it primarily represents independence, not dominance.

    Rogues and hermits usually do the same thing and most of them wouldn?t even want to be tyrants. Jacen falls more into that category than the tyrannical one, especially as the text actually states directly that he shunned dominance in TUF.

    His use of the Dark Side stopped, for all we know, when Vergere died. He does not now, nor has he ever preached that it?s a good thing to use (in fact, in chapter 23 of TJK, he intimates that it?s not).

    There is a duality regarding the Force he believes in, and that is in regards to the Force?s will. Things that aide the Force?s will are ?light side? and things that hinder it are ?dark side? (which, BTW, even has support in the Dark Side sourcebook). But the use of the Force is also more complicated than that, and Jacen is perfectly aware of the minutia involved with how the Force affects to user.


    If you want to talk about a character who thinks he/she is on the light side, but also doesn?t have the slightest problem throwing Force lighting around, talk about Mara. You want talk about a person who thinks the ends justify the means, talk about Cilghal.

    The idea that Jacen will fall to the Dark Side because he doesn?t believe in a Dark Side (aside from being an oversimplification of the case) doesn?t hold any water, as the entire Jedi Order no longer believes in a Dark Side. Jacen is no more likely to fall than any of them, and less likely than some.
  10. CeiranHarmony Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    May 10, 2004
    star 5
    "The YV war brought some measure of unity in the galaxy, but based in TJK it seems that at least the elite didn´t learn the lessons. The government and the conglomerations are as corrupt as before, and the galaxy is a poorer place to live. The war and the devastation it wrought could have brought on the galaxy as a whole same kind of change it brought in Jacen, but it didn´t. So I doubt that any positive rebirth can be achieved."

    well not yet, but maybe in the future. the elite didn´t learn. the republican system failed again and again. it is time for democracy without republican structures to it in my opinion. there shall be no more elite, if there is more democracy, the elite has less power and has to change to stay in office.

    "I thought that Vergere was scared about the possibility that the government would turn against the Jedi more than the fact the Jedi had become something of a hereditary class of their own. She seemed to think - in my opinion - that the Jedi must be seen as dependent of the government, weaker than they are, so that they wouldn´t be seen as a threat by the government. But her view of course was created by her experience of living in the Old Republic."

    right, but why shall Jedi deny their power? the galaxy has to accept them like any other subgroup. not the jedi, the galaxy has to change. and if a government isn´t capable of accepting them, they shall not serve it. they are no police tool with superpowers.
    I like that cal omas can´t order Jedi, he can only ask them for volunteering for a mission. this is much better than it was in the old times.

    "What comes to the Skywalker rule over the Jedi, it would of course be best that eventually Luke would be succeeded in power not by Ben or Jacen or Jaina but a true Jedi Council - and no shouting club of the Masters, as it was in TJK - that would wield the power. Those Skywalkers and Solos that would merit it by their own abilities would play important role like any other Jedi of their stature, but they would have no special role. But that would likely take generations, as the ranks of the Jedi are still few. Leia and Jaina most likely will eventually have important positions in the Order. What comes to Ben, I think he will eventually re-connect to the Force. Jacen - I don´t think his future will be that bright. He could continue on his current solitary path, but falling to the dark side or becoming a martyr of sorts are likelier, I think. Somehow he reminds me of Paul Atreides in Dune."

    Ben will reconnect, I think that, too. though he will be not like Luke or the other Jedi. more like Jacen then and careful. Jacen won´t be solitary all his life, he will have Tenel Ka and a family. and this prevents any dangers that might arise. he might be like Paul Atreides, but Vader fits that role more than Jacen. I think Jacen is misunderstood, and will do his own things, but nothing dark. no falling. ben might fall and then return.

    nice that you mentioned Dune, I thought of Matrix trilogy. where the heroes in the end die and the normal people go on. Neo and Trinity sacrificing themselves. like Vader did. or maybe like some future main characters may do? to bring the circle to an end? breaking the circle, soluting it, freeing people from darkness vs. light. but might be in the far future.

    "I doubt that the Jedi can or will stop supporting the Galactic Alliance. Individual Jedi will, I think, but the Order won´t - I hope. The galaxy deserves decent rule that can keep up the peace, but without the Jedi the GA will not survive. On the other hand, the Jedi need more independence, co-operation with the GA instead of Cal Omas or his successors telling them what to do. Some kind of change in their relationship is needed and probably there will be a showdown between Luke and Omas in the future.

    oh they won´t stop supporting it, but they won´t take orders anymore. at last not those who are not in the military. they will help and aid, but when they see it is needed, not when the galaxy demands it. they help where it is needed, not where politicians
  11. CeiranHarmony Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    May 10, 2004
    star 5
    I read your post and liked it, also the earlier one! though on some details about the force I disagree (like: what exactly is the dark side), we agree in most points. I believe, too, that he won´t fall, and the jedi are more likely to fall, yes, but they will learn, like Jacen did, somehow.
  12. Quiet_Mandalorian Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Apr 19, 2005
    star 5
    As I understood it, the New Republic was a democracy pretending to be a republic, and that's why it failed.[face_thinking]
  13. CeiranHarmony Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    May 10, 2004
    star 5
    I see it the other way around. it was a republic and not a democracy. that´s why it failed.
  14. Kudzu Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Jun 18, 2005
    star 5
    No, it was because it didn't believe it!

    And that is why it failed.
  15. Quiet_Mandalorian Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Apr 19, 2005
    star 5
    Democracy inevitably leads to tyranny. Only a republic safeguards against it.;)
  16. Fingolfin_Noldor Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Aug 10, 2004
    star 4
    It is a democracy. Those Senators are sent by the respective govts, which assumingly are elected by their people. The Senators are supposedly to represent the interests of their govts. Whether they decide to be self-serving, is another question.

    So in a way, the Govts supported Palpatine's rise.
  17. Joser_Kyind Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Feb 10, 2005
    star 4
    Um, I'm pretty sure that they intentionally sacrificed themselves, and Darth Bane was the only one who disagreed with the idea.
  18. Darth Guy Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Aug 16, 2002
    star 10
    They knew they were doomed. There's a big difference between sacrifice and facing the inevitable.
  19. Kudzu Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Jun 18, 2005
    star 5
    Army or not, they must have known - they were doomed!

    *glances back at the Advisory Council in the early NJO*

    Oh, I don't think so.
  20. CeiranHarmony Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    May 10, 2004
    star 5
    I heavily disagree. democracy doesn´t let to tyranny, republic does that more often than democracy. look at the real world for example. In my opinion, a republican system is very unsuccessful.
  21. lexu Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    May 28, 2002
    star 6
    I've read, and while the Palpatine info was interesting, I'm sorry to report I'm pretty unconvinced by the 'incontrovertible proof' of the link, citing JJS's excellent post. I can see how it looks to the pro-Anakin/anti-Jacen crowd, but seriously, I've got my grain of salt right here. ;)

    I think I'll wait to see how Dark Nest ends before I begin to form an opinion. In the meantime, I'll just enjoy Jacen's ambiguity and complexity. ;)
  22. dp4m Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Nov 8, 2001
    star 9
    JJS' "excellent post?"

    The one which says that "I am a Jedi; all you need to know are that my reasons are sound" and describing non-Force sensitives as "lessers" mean that he's not being controlled rather than controlling?

    Uh, yeah.

    In the immortal words of Leia: "I don't know where you get your delusions, laser-brain."

    I mean, it's not like Jacen has ever said anything along the lines of: "You're my brother, I won't let you do this," right?

    Suuuuuuuure he's not controlling or enforcing his will on others.
  23. JediJSolo Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Jun 11, 2001
    star 4
    dp4m: The one which says that "I am a Jedi; all you need to know are that my reasons are sound" and describing non-Force sensitives as "lessers" mean that he's not being controlled rather than controlling?

    How is he being controlling by refusing to let non-Force users dictate how he uses his own power? They are his abilities. To allow someone else to dictate how he uses them?particularly when that other person is likely ignorant of many aspects of those abilities?would simply be stupid. Computer nerds don?t typically make good football coaches, just as good football coaches don?t typically make good CS teachers.

    Having a computer nerd coach football would be placing the responsibility in lesser hands.

    Having a non-Force user (who understands the Force even less than the Jedi) dictate how the Jedi should use their power would be placing the responsibility in lesser hands.

    As far as Jacen?s refusal to answer Cal?s question: how does that demonstrate any form of control whatsoever? Cal is a politician. Jacen doesn?t answer to him, neither as a Jedi, nor as a citizen of the GA. Heck, even the Jedi don?t answer to him. They just tend to humor him more than Jacen feels he needs to.

    Does Jacen intimate that he is superior to these people? In understanding the Force, he is superior to non-Force users. I know more about programming languages than my father because I have actually used more programming languages than my father (as he hasn?t used any). That makes me a superior programmer. Jacen is a superior Jedi to non-Force users. That?s common sense. I see no indication that he sees himself as superior in ways outside the realm of Force understanding.

    As far as Jacen trying to control his brother? I might point out (again) that his brother asked to be controlled. That whole scene didn?t make any sense anyway (both from a logistical standpoint, and a character standpoint). It is the most ridiculously fudged up scene in the whole series. Anakin wouldn?t have asked, Jacen would have had different reasons, and Sal-Solo wouldn?t have been able to push past his guards and two of the most powerful young Jedi in the order to fire that thing. It just doesn?t make any sense. The author screwed up the scene, basically, and I don?t see it as holding much meaning for that reason.
  24. BIG_BAD_JEDI_MAN Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Aug 9, 2002
    star 3
    I was wondering when JJS would get involved with this...

    And yes, PLEASE don't bring up the mess that was Centerpoint again. Anybody who's been on these boards for the last two years has read or written their own opinions, and I think everyone, whether they're pro-Jacen or pro-Anakin, can agree that it was a gigantic blunder that never should have happened if not for poor editorial and writing choices.
  25. Rouge77 Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    May 11, 2005
    star 5
    well not yet, but maybe in the future. the elite didn´t learn. the republican system failed again and again. it is time for democracy without republican structures to it in my opinion. there shall be no more elite, if there is more democracy, the elite has less power and has to change to stay in office.

    True, but governments that really work well give less possibilities for stories than failed ones. And the SW tends to be a rather curious mix elitism of and populism; at the same time as the Senate in Old Republic, Empire, New Republic and Galactic Alliance is describes as a nest of corrupt sycophants, we see positive portrayals of autocratic governments - Hapes, Chiss etc - and the heroes tend to come from among the elite.

    right, but why shall Jedi deny their power? the galaxy has to accept them like any other subgroup. not the jedi, the galaxy has to change.

    The problem is that is far easier for the Jedi to change than for the galaxy to change, but I accept your view.

    Ben will reconnect, I think that, too. though he will be not like Luke or the other Jedi. more like Jacen then and careful. Jacen won´t be solitary all his life, he will have Tenel Ka and a family. and this prevents any dangers that might arise. he might be like Paul Atreides, but Vader fits that role more than Jacen. I think Jacen is misunderstood, and will do his own things, but nothing dark. no falling. ben might fall and then return.

    I don´t totally agree. I think that Ben will have his own encounters with the dark side, and end staying on the side of light, but I doubt that Jacen and Tenel Ka will end together in the way that of, say, Han&Leia. Maybe a a more free companionship like that between Chewbacca and Malla could be possible, Jacen visiting now and then. The Hapan system would be too constricting for him.
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