[20,000] Magnum Opus: The Parallels of Jacen Solo and HIM Emperor Palpatine

Discussion in 'Literature' started by dp4m, Aug 30, 2005.

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  1. dp4m Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Nov 8, 2001
    star 9
    A computer nerd in charge of football? That'd never happen. (see: Theo Epstein [baseball], Billy Beane [baseball], Bill Bellichek [football], etc.)

    Do you require "Force powers" to understand morality?
    Or do you simply require a belief in morality -- one Jacen DOES NOT HOLD ANY LONGER -- to understand morality?

    What Jacen is suggesting is that he and the Jedi -- and ONLY he and the Jedi -- are capable of legislating morality and that anyone who does NOT control the Force is incapable of defining a moral position and just usage of that power.

    If that is not Palpatine's definition of "The Weakness of Inferiors," then I don't know what is.

    The Jedi don't answer to the Galactic Alliance? Even as citizens of the Galactic Alliance? Then you're suggesting that they are a completely separate entity capable of operating outside of the boundaries of the civilization within which they live in. Kind of sounds like the KGB (real world) or Sith (GFFA) to me. And Cal Omas would be perfectly within his rights to arrest and indefinitely detain the Jedi -- ALL of the Jedi -- if they do not claim any GA citizenship and are acting against the laws and directives of the GA government.

    There is a difference between the government of the Galactic Alliance giving an UNJUST order and the Jedi refusing to follow it out of a sense of moral outage and the Galactic Alliance giving a perfectly just order and the Jedi refusing to comply. It's called "treason."

    I'll concede the Centerpoint Station scene, let us never bring it up again. :)
  2. Rouge77 Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    May 11, 2005
    star 5
    Having a non-Force user (who understands the Force even less than the Jedi) dictate how the Jedi should use their power would be placing the responsibility in lesser hands.

    As far as Jacen?s refusal to answer Cal?s question: how does that demonstrate any form of control whatsoever? Cal is a politician. Jacen doesn?t answer to him, neither as a Jedi, nor as a citizen of the GA. Heck, even the Jedi don?t answer to him. They just tend to humor him more than Jacen feels he needs to.


    The fact that the Jedi are powerful doesn´t give them the right to decide questions of galactic importance by themselves, nor does it give a single Jedi the right to decide questions of war and peace by himself. Nobody has elected the Jedi, Cal Omas has been (dubiously, but still) elected. He has rightful authority, whereas Jacen is still one person who has no right to do what he did. The ability to do something can´t justify doing it. And the GA does pay the bills of the Jedi Order, so they are in debt to the civil authorities.

    That makes me a superior programmer. Jacen is a superior Jedi to non-Force users. That?s common sense. I see no indication that he sees himself as superior in ways outside the realm of Force understanding.

    These are two different kinds of superiority. Being good in some thing like programming and wielding great power that can change the fate of a galaxy are two different things. The superiority that Jacen feels can easily corrupt his view of the people that lack his powers, people that are basically in his mercy.
  3. CeiranHarmony Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    May 10, 2004
    star 5
    "True, but governments that really work well give less possibilities for stories than failed ones. And the SW tends to be a rather curious mix elitism of and populism; at the same time as the Senate in Old Republic, Empire, New Republic and Galactic Alliance is describes as a nest of corrupt sycophants, we see positive portrayals of autocratic governments - Hapes, Chiss etc - and the heroes tend to come from among the elite."

    true words... and I like the stories. but even I think by now that there needs to be a Happy End. final peace and harmony. they could do more stories in between the others or before that time. but the galaxy needs rest. why shall Anakin Skywalkers sacrifice be so good and important, more important than Quel Droma, Exar Kun, Revan or others, if he just bought it a little time until new evil rises? and only the jedi learned, the galaxy didn´t? corruption like before the clone wars. well.. in my opinion. legacy shall bring it to an end, with still enough potential for stories, but on a smaller scale. individual stories, not galaxy spanning epics. like short stories who feature torubles but on a smaller scale and are successful nevertheless.

    "I don´t totally agree. I think that Ben will have his own encounters with the dark side, and end staying on the side of light, but I doubt that Jacen and Tenel Ka will end together in the way that of, say, Han&Leia. Maybe a a more free companionship like that between Chewbacca and Malla could be possible, Jacen visiting now and then. The Hapan system would be too constricting for him."

    might work for Ben, but I think Jacen's journey is ending. he found lots of wisdom and powers, but realised that they don´t understand him. see akanah. the Cluster might be a refuge for him, studying the force and being with his family. they could change the cluster or he might stay out of the public. I see it work, he deserves it. I even hope for Jaina to get a family, though it is less likely now sadly. lets wait and see.
  4. Rouge77 Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    May 11, 2005
    star 5
    but even I think by now that there needs to be a Happy End. final peace and harmony. they could do more stories in between the others or before that time. but the galaxy needs rest... individual stories, not galaxy spanning epics. like short stories who feature torubles but on a smaller scale and are successful nevertheless.

    I totally agree with this. There can be continuing adventures even if the galaxy at large is at peace.

    I even hope for Jaina to get a family, though it is less likely now sadly.

    I think she will eventually get a family. It would be a kind of waste making her a childless, old maid. What comes to Jacen, well, time will tell. Clouded, the boy´s future is.
  5. CeiranHarmony Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    May 10, 2004
    star 5
    yubyub, right.. well did we run out of stuff to discuss that early?

    what threats or challenges do you think might be future ones when the galaxy at large is at peace? I think personal stories would work best, like Tatooine Ghost, or things like Courtship of Princess Leia, without the Imperial threat. less fighting and more adventure, fantasy, riddles and discoveries, maybe philosophy.
  6. Rouge77 Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    May 11, 2005
    star 5
    what threats or challenges do you think might be future ones when the galaxy at large is at peace? I think personal stories would work best, like Tatooine Ghost, or things like Courtship of Princess Leia, without the Imperial threat. less fighting and more adventure, fantasy, riddles and discoveries, maybe philosophy.

    I greatly enjoyed Tatooine Ghost. I could read a lot more novels like that. It showed that even relatively small threats can lead to engaging adventures. Survivor´s Quest was another recent novel of that kind that I liked. And in both of them there was just two of the main characters involved, so the whole cast doesn´t need to be involved the whole time. More lighthearted adventures in their vein would be nice. I have nothing against more serious and dark novels, but there has to be a counterweight to them.

    Future challenges? Well, we don´t know that the galaxy at large will be in peace. What I have read about LoTF is a bit conflicting at this point when it comes to that, but if the galaxy is peaceful, then for example Ben´s development would be nice to follow. The Bothan hunt for Zonama Sekot comes to mind too, and of course the reconstruction of the galaxy will offer lot of stories. The Borao affair was just a subplot, but one could possibly write a novel from a same kind of situation. Then there are lot of bad guys from the past who are still unaccounted. I would like to see Han face his cousin Thrackan and bring Thrackan´s story to a definitive end.
  7. CeiranHarmony Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    May 10, 2004
    star 5
    "I greatly enjoyed Tatooine Ghost. I could read a lot more novels like that. It showed that even relatively small threats can lead to engaging adventures. Survivor´s Quest was another recent novel of that kind that I liked. And in both of them there was just two of the main characters involved, so the whole cast doesn´t need to be involved the whole time. More lighthearted adventures in their vein would be nice. I have nothing against more serious and dark novels, but there has to be a counterweight to them. "

    right, I agree. too many characters are also difficult to write. some novels with reduced numbers, or maybe even former sidecharacters as main heros, and the big 3 or their children as cameos or background characters only might work. see fanfavorites like kyle katarn, or the clones in karen traviss works. it would definitely sell.

    "Future challenges? Well, we don´t know that the galaxy at large will be in peace. What I have read about LoTF is a bit conflicting at this point when it comes to that, but if the galaxy is peaceful, then for example Ben´s development would be nice to follow. The Bothan hunt for Zonama Sekot comes to mind too, and of course the reconstruction of the galaxy will offer lot of stories. The Borao affair was just a subplot, but one could possibly write a novel from a same kind of situation. Then there are lot of bad guys from the past who are still unaccounted. I would like to see Han face his cousin Thrackan and bring Thrackan´s story to a definitive end."

    nice ideas. also I think, we need more on Soontir Fels past. or what happened to Calliasta? such stuff could be included, and many stuff hinted at only in the existing books or comics might then get explored.
  8. JediJSolo Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Jun 11, 2001
    star 4
    dp4m: Do you require "Force powers" to understand morality?
    Or do you simply require a belief in morality -- one Jacen DOES NOT HOLD ANY LONGER -- to understand morality?


    And should one let other?s dictate your moral code? I certainly hope one would have more moral fortitude than to require others to dictate it for them. You seem to assert that Jacen lacks such fortitude. There is no evidence of that. Quite the contrary, Jacen has demonstrated more moral fortitude than anyone else in the series.

    But more importantly, morality as it relates to the Force and the Force?s will is something non-Force users are less capable of understanding than Force users. To relegate the morality involved with the Force?s will away from the people who are actually capable of sensing it makes absolutely no logical sense.

    If that is not Palpatine's definition of "The Weakness of Inferiors," then I don't know what is.

    Palpatine?s definition of the weakness of inferiors dealt with those inferiors? own misapprehensions about themselves. The misapprehension that they require guidance and leadership. The misapprehension that they should be dominated by someone or something. The fact that Jacen sees non-Force users as less capable of understanding the Force is not what Palpatine focused on as the true lesson.

    Palpatine may have also asserted that because a person can?t use the Force, that person is universally weak and inferior. However, Jacen has asserted that those who can not use the Force are ignorant of much of it and are therefore inferior in that single aspect, yet not necessarily inferior as a whole. There?s a sizable difference.

    As far as the Jedi not answering to the GA, I suggest you reread TJK. That fact is made abundantly clear through the whole book. These new Jedi serve the Force, not the GA. They are bound by the laws of society (as everyone is), but they are not a part of the government. Jacen broke no laws, and even as a citizen of the GA, he was in no way required to answer Cal Omas? question.

    A government can not simply order one of its citizens to do random useless junk. Had there been a law passed which required everyone to answer every one of Cal Omas? questions fully and truthfully, then Jacen would have broken that law. As it stands, I seriously doubt the GA would create such a ridiculous law. The right to remain silent is even given to people under arrest in this country. Somehow I doubt that right would be revoked for people who aren?t under arrest in the GA.

    Rouge77, Jacen has every right to request military aide. Please note: that wasn?t his fleet. The people in that fleet were not following his orders. They were following Tenel Ka?s orders (someone who was placed in power through legitimate means).

    Also note, everything Jacen did turned out almost exactly as he?d hoped. A war was averted with both the Killiks and the Chiss, as well as one with the Chiss and the GA (which wouldn?t have happened anyway, IMO). Had Jacen not acted as he did, the Killiks on that planet might have been completely wiped out. Preventing genocide is not an act of evil.

    Being good in some thing like programming and wielding great power that can change the fate of a galaxy are two different things.

    Tell that to Bill Gates.
  9. dp4m Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Nov 8, 2001
    star 9
    Erm... so what you're saying is we shouldn't have interfered with Nazi Germany if they had left well enough alone?

    A morally indefensible position is a morally indefensible position. Otherwise there would never have been a Rebellion, because Palpatine was entitled to his position (lawfully elected government and all that).

    Also, please remember, the Sith absolutely believe they are morally right in their positions and THEY are Force sensitive. So they would be just as "in the right" for dictating Jedi behavior according to you.

    Er, no. Jacen outright stated that he believed non-Force users were "lesser."

    "And so we place the burden of remaining pure on lesser shoulders?"

    That is not an equivocal statement; he outright states that non-Force users are LESS PURE than those who control the Force. That is an *exceptionally* dangerous position, to which McE should be chiming in with the Nazized ideals of "purity" of race.

    Jacen committed treason. Plain and simple. He engineered a war fleet of a member-state (at least ally; I don't recall Hapes position within the government at the time of TJK) to actively engage the war fleet of an allied territory against a non-allied fleet. So when you state that "Jacen broke no laws," what you mean to state is "Jacen committed treason but gets off because he's a Jedi who believes he's above the laws of the Galactic Alliance." Don't you?
  10. JediJSolo Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Jun 11, 2001
    star 4
    dp4m: Erm... so what you're saying is we shouldn't have interfered with Nazi Germany if they had left well enough alone?

    That actually relates more to what Jacen did, in that he stopped the Chiss from wiping out a planet of sentient beings. Omas was worried about the politics involved. Jacen was worried about the people involved.

    But as one might remember, we did let the Nazis continue for a very long time before doing anything about it. They conquered entire nations, and we did nothing. We were wrong to not stop them earlier, just as Jacen would have been wrong to not stop the Chiss when he did.

    Also, please remember, the Sith absolutely believe they are morally right in their positions and THEY are Force sensitive. So they would be just as "in the right" for dictating Jedi behavior according to you.

    Not at all. Having a valid opinion and being right are completely separate issues. The fact of the matter is that Omas has no business dictating to the Jedi about what the Force wants, as he hasn?t the slightest clue what that might be. A Sith may have a more valid opinion than Omas, but that in no way makes them more right.


    But all this is rather silly. Jacen made a moral decision, and that decision was right. Arguing about Jacen?s ?reckless independence? seems rather silly to me, as Anakin Solo was notorious for that very same trait. Jacen is no more wrong for no obeying Omas than Anakin was in not obeying Luke in Conquest. In fact, Omas never actually told Jacen not to do what he did. Jacen just didn?t feel like explaining himself.

    Er, no. Jacen outright stated that he believed non-Force users were "lesser."

    Taken out of context, yes Jacen used the word ?lesser? when describing non-Force users. But the statement was not a stand alone declaration. Within context, it was in regards to those most likely to have the most valid moral opinions regarding the usage of the Force. The context makes that perfectly clear, and in that sense, non-Force users are lesser.

    I suggest you reread the entire passage, and not just that single quote.

    As far as Jacen committing treason? That?s simply not true. Aside from the fact that it wasn?t his fleet (Tenel Ka would be more guilty of treason than Jacen, if one could even call it that), but that fleet was only intended to defend the Killiks, hopefully by preventing the Chiss from attacking at all. He did not engineer the fleet to intentionally and actively engage the Chiss. It was a blockade, nothing more. You might remember that the fleet spent more time starring down at the Chiss than actually fighting them. You might also remember what the person commanding the fleet actually said: ?Actually, our mission is closer to peacekeeping than reinforcing.? (page 299)
  11. Grand Admiral Wettengel Jedi Youngling

    Member Since:
    Jan 10, 2000
    star 4
    I would just like to bring up some points:

    This notion of the Jedi serving this supposed "Will" of the Force is rather stupid. Shouldn't Luke be scratching his head and wondering: "If wise Master Yoda had always followed the Will of the Force, why was the Old Order essentially destroyed? If only Luke could have met arrogant, egotistical PT-era Yoda. Probably would have tag-teamed the little troll with Papa and cleave it in two.

    The problem with following this "will" is that not everyone has access to it. What the Jedi do shapes galactic events and for them to be unaccountable to the elected galactic government smells more like theocratic tyranny. The Jedi could not present any documentary evidence to justify an action, just this "I'm a Jedi, so I can understand the will of the Force" nonsense that is truly just a politely-worded: "Silence, impudent swine. I have supernatural powers; you don't. My powers help me know what's best."

    Was it the Will of the force that the OJO be destroyed? If that is so--it would not be wise for any Force-sensitive to entertain listening to the Force and taking guidance from it, unless you happen to have an interest in potentially aiding in your self-destruction.
  12. Alynn Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    Jun 27, 2005
    star 2
    In the UN, "peacekeeping" is a code word for military troops. It was peacekeepers who were sent to Rwanda and Bosnia back in the 90s, but make no mistake what they saw was not peaceful.

    In the Star Wars realm, there was no guarantee that sending the Hapan fleet in would prevent a war. It was just as likely that the Chiss would see it as an act of aggression (which it turns out they did) and it would hasten a war (which it seemed to do, and which is what the Dark Nest wanted.) I do agree with dp4m that it can be argued that Jacen's actions were treasonous, though. If Jacen feels that as a Jedi he's above the government and society, then what's the point of even having a society in the first place. If it doesn't sound like Palpatine, it certainly sounds a lot like Anakin did on Mustafar when he explained his reasoning for wanting to control the galaxy with Padme. But I digress. Aside from bring a third, unrelated society into the conflict, Jacen accompanied that fleet on an unauthorized (by the GA government) military action.


    Was it really Jacen who accomplished that, because it seemed to me that the only thing the inclusion of the Hapan fleet did was to complicate matters. It was Luke, Mara, Han, and Leia who sussed out the Dark Nest and Leia and Han who diffused the border conflict. All Jacen did was escalate the situation, mess with the brain scan, prostitute himself for a bunch of ships, and take it upon himself to be the arbiter of what is moral, who is right, and who deserves punishment (such as the way he "disciplined" Tenel Ka's secretary).
  13. JediJSolo Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Jun 11, 2001
    star 4
    They are accountable to the rule of law, just like everyone else, Grand Admiral Wettengel. They are not, nor have they ever been a branch of the GA.

    This isn?t about knowing the will of the Force; it?s about who is more likely to (as Jacen used a relative term?lesser?it?s clear we are dealing with a relative comparison). Clearly Jedi are more likely to understand the Force, making Jacen?s statement perfectly justified and true.

    Alynn: In the UN, "peacekeeping" is a code word for military troops. It was peacekeepers who were sent to Rwanda and Bosnia back in the 90s, but make no mistake what they saw was not peaceful.

    Yes, but in the UN one will also hear things like ?reinforcing the peacekeepers?. However, when the two words are presented as clearly opposed to each other (as they are in the quote), it represents a rather different meaning. Peacekeeping in the sense of keeping the peace, rather than forcing the peace through violence.

    In the Star Wars realm, there was no guarantee that sending the Hapan fleet in would prevent a war.

    I never said there was. However, that was the intention, the belief, and most importantly, what actually happened.

    People seem to be harping on about Jacen asking Tenel Ka to defend the Killiks... But let?s look at the arguments: Omas was an elected public official, and therefore should have been obeyed. Well, as Omas never told anyone not to set up a blockade to protect people, I don?t see where Jacen was disobeying him. But aside from that, Omas doesn?t have the legal right to order around random citizens who are not employed by the government. The Jedi, as a whole, are not employed by the government. Jacen isn?t even technically a part of the Jedi order. He?s just a citizen. He can do what he likes, as long as it doesn?t break the law.

    Jacen believed he knew better than Omas. Well apparently he did, as what he intended is what happened, and it certainly worked better than all of the non-existant ideas Omas had about fixing the situation. I don?t see anyone complaining about Anakin Solo directly disobeying Fey?lya and Luke in Conquest. No one seems to deny that Anakin knew better than Fey?lya and Luke about what should be done, because obviously everything turned out better because of what he did. I don?t see why there?s a double standard here for Jacen. Obviously, Jacen did the right thing, as the result was just what he intended, and allowed for the cessation of hostilities between the Killiks and the Chiss (which is what everyone wanted in the first place).

    Jacen didn?t break any laws. He didn?t use the Dark Side. He didn?t directly disobey any orders he had been given (as if anyone could give him orders, as he?s not a member of the Jedi order). Given that everything worked essentially as intended I don?t see the problem. Everything turned out for the best.

    It was just as likely that the Chiss would see it as an act of aggression (which it turns out they did) and it would hasten a war (which it seemed to do, and which is what the Dark Nest wanted.)

    Actually, the Chiss were on their way to wipe out the colony even before the fleet arrived. The arrival of that fleet stopped them from carrying out their plans. It did not hasten the war. It slowed it.

    Aside from bring a third, unrelated society into the conflict, Jacen accompanied that fleet on an unauthorized (by the GA government) military action.

    Jacen did not accompany the fleet. Tenel Ka sent the fleet, and it was commanded by Dukat Aleson Grey. Jacen?s involvement extended only as far as asking Tenel Ka for help.

    The action may not have been authorized by the government, but it was clearly the right action nonetheless. Just because Omas disagreed with it doesn?t make it wrong.

    Was it really Jacen who accomplished that, because it seemed to me that the only thing the inclusion of the Hapan fleet did was to complicate matters.

    As I said, the Chiss were on their way to wipe o
  14. QuentinGeorge Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Dec 12, 2003
    star 5
    You know the POTJSB had an interesting quote that was used by the OJO to teach lessons on arrogance.

    The quote is:

    "The acceptance of others is not a guarantee. Like everyone else, a Jedi is accepted or not based on his behavior. The Jedi who believes that he is more important than others only demonstrates that his opinion is to be ignored."

    But what's more interesting is who said this.

    Here's your answer.

    Hmmm....
  15. Rouge77 Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    May 11, 2005
    star 5
    too many characters are also difficult to write. some novels with reduced numbers, or maybe even former sidecharacters as main heros, and the big 3 or their children as cameos or background characters only might work. see fanfavorites like kyle katarn, or the clones in karen traviss works. it would definitely sell.

    Yes, that would be good. I liked Shatterpoint and a novel like that could work well also in the NJO/LotF-eras. Kyle Katarn could well be one possible hero.

    nice ideas. also I think, we need more on Soontir Fels past. or what happened to Calliasta? such stuff could be included, and many stuff hinted at only in the existing books or comics might then get explored.

    It would be good thing if they would bring some of the forgotten subplots in to a conclusion, like Callista´s fate. I don´t mean that there would have to be a novel about it, but it could be revealed in some novel. It wouldn´t have to take much space.
  16. CeiranHarmony Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    May 10, 2004
    star 5
    "Yes, that would be good. I liked Shatterpoint and a novel like that could work well also in the NJO/LotF-eras. Kyle Katarn could well be one possible hero."

    Your idea has to be posted in the kyle katarn threads! from there it will find its way to some authors! I like it.

    "It would be good thing if they would bring some of the forgotten subplots in to a conclusion, like Callista´s fate. I don´t mean that there would have to be a novel about it, but it could be revealed in some novel. It wouldn´t have to take much space."

    Yub, maybe more Tales anthologies of short stories. they sold well and had great fictions by fantastic authors.
  17. Joser_Kyind Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Feb 10, 2005
    star 4
    I'm somewhat torn on the subject of whether the Jedi should be answerable to the GA. I think that their first loyalty and responsibility is to the Force. Their second loyalty should be to the GA, since they are citizens of it. I believe that the Jedi should follow the laws of the GA, as long as that doesn't lead them to the Dark Side. I also think that they should be ready and willing to suffer the consequences of their actions when the Will of the Force and the orders of the GA are not in agreement. It's kind of like how Jaina and Zekk disobeyed the Colony in order to serve the Force. By becoming Joiners, they had become citizens of their Nest. The Nest wanted them to do things that was against the Will of the Force. In the end, they chose to obey the Force, and they were banished from the Nest because of it.
  18. CeiranHarmony Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    May 10, 2004
    star 5
    Nice examples. I agree, the force first, others second. though, the galaxy won´t like this. what do you mean with this:

    "I also think that they should be ready and willing to suffer the consequences of their actions when the Will of the Force and the orders of the GA are not in agreement."

    Do you mean if they act in union with the will of the force and break laws, they have to stand trial? and the will of the force doesn´t count as excuse? or what do you mean? this is an interesting but difficult topic.
  19. Alynn Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    Jun 27, 2005
    star 2
    JediJSolo
    However, when the two words are presented as clearly opposed to each other (as they are in the quote), it represents a rather different meaning. Peacekeeping in the sense of keeping the peace, rather than forcing the peace through violence.

    Perhaps, but considering how political the Hapans tend to be, and considing how Leia was fishing for information, I think that it's reasonable to expect that they were using the less literal definition.

    I'll concede the notion that Jacen wasn't with the fleet. I thought that Dukat Grey's comment, "That won't be necessary. We have a course to the Lizil nest and your son assured us that someone would be waiting--" implied that Jacen was still with the fleet and I missed that other line. Jacen was the one who provided them with the coordinates to the nest and apparently planned the logistics of the fleet's getting there which makes me think his involvement went a little further than simply making the request.

    Actually, the Chiss were on their way to wipe out the colony even before the fleet arrived. The arrival of that fleet stopped them from carrying out their plans. It did not hasten the war. It slowed it.

    Except that the Chiss have that law about not attacking first, but bringing in the Hapan fleet provided them with an excuse not to make the first move. And Han seems to think that bringing in the Hapan fleet would start the war, and it did lead to a battle.

    Given that everything worked essentially as intended I don?t see the problem. Everything turned out for the best.

    The road to hell, or the dark side as it were, is paved with good intentions.

    Which is exactly what the fleet was meant to do. ?The Hapan fleet will buy us the time we need to resolve this conflict.? (Jacen, page 323) The fleet did exactly what Jacen intended, and without it, there wouldn?t have been a colony to save by the time everyone figured out what was going on.

    Jacen's biased. He's too arrogant to feel the need to explain his reasoning to any of the lesser peons who ask him, and it's still unclear as to whether he's a Joiner or not, in which case of course he'll say that it would buy time. Raynar said that the Chiss mutilated themselves. Alema said that Saba attacked a Chiss Joiner. That doesn't make it true. And Han said on page 299, "You think you know him...and then he goes and tries to start a war."

    Just because Omas disagreed with it doesn?t make it wrong.

    I agree. What makes it wrong is that Jacen (and the other Myrkr Jedi) when outside a set command structure and acted without regard for all the consequences, not just those seen from his point of view. If you have no respect for government, what was the point of having one? Jacen's actions will lead to anarchy.

    Allowed himself to be used, you mean. Tenel Ka was the one pushing for it, as one might recall?

    Naw, actually I did mean prostituted. "Jacen was beginning to feel very carried along--and spending the night could only help his chances of getting the fleet (page 258, emphasis added)." Jacen the Jedi Gigilo. On a side note, I would wonder what was carrying Jacen along--Tenel's forwardness, the Hapan night...or maybe the Dark Nest?


    He merely stated that he had valid reasons; not that he was the custodian of absolute Rightness.

    The latter is precisely what he did when he refused to explain his actions to the head of government stating "I am a Jedi. All you need know is that my reasons were sound," and "Do you really believe the Jedi should be the tools of such frail institutions [ie. the government]," and when he said that they should only answer to themselves because "Who else can we trust to wield our own power. We must follow our own consciences." Jacen's whole attitude during that scene (starting on page 322) was flippant and arrogant. "breezed into the room" "Jacen's tone was cordial"--note his tone, not Jacen was cordial. Kenth Hamner even came right out and called Jacen arrogant, and who w
  20. Lank_Pavail Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Sep 26, 2002
    star 7
    Something that I thought of, reading the last few pages:

    Jacen's actions play right into the superstition and fear people have about the Jedi: Powerful beings deciding the fate of untold billions with little regard for the people themselves. We're right back to the propoganda Palpatine put about the Jedi as traitors and and untouchable religious fanatics, sitting in their ivory tower until they come down from on high and grace the people with their 'wisdom'. Jacen Solo, son of two of the greatest heroes of the Rebellion, has been absent at a time the Jedi are deperately trying to help rebuild a shattered galaxy, because he feels his quest for knowledge is more important than helping out. And after coming back, he amost preciptates another war, beleiveing that he is wiser than not only the current heads of state, but of the Jedi Council.

    Whether Jacen's actions were because he is a Joiner, he's become Lumiya's Sith Apprentice in his 5 year sabbatical, or he's just that utterly deluded and arrognat, the boy done wrong. And as a GA citizen, I'm pretty sure he should be facing some sort of legal reprecussion.

    My 1/50th of a dollar.
  21. Joser_Kyind Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Feb 10, 2005
    star 4
    I mean that, if following the Will of the Force means breaking a law, they should stand trial. They could use the Will of the Force argument in their defence, and some judges/judicial committees might let it go at that. However, if the system still punishes them for doing the right thing, they should take the punishment. They should not be ashamed of their actions if those actions were right, but morality and legality are not always in agreement. If doing the right thing means going to jail for a few years, that shouldn't stop you from doing the right thing. Perhaps that sacrifice would be the catalyst for a change in the system that prevents other such situations from occuring, but even if it doesn't that's no exuse not to do what's right.
  22. CeiranHarmony Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    May 10, 2004
    star 5
    interesting, and I have to agree. but what if the government turns into tyranny and the laws get inhuman? do they still have to stand trial? and where to draw the line? this is more difficult than it sounds.
  23. Joser_Kyind Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Feb 10, 2005
    star 4
    I guess I'll have to find a way to reword my philosophy. I'd say that if the government is tyrannical, like the Empire, then don't let the government catch you, and if they do, make sure you make as much noise as you can, so that others will see and be inspired to fight against the tyranny. Hmm...I'll have to ponder on this.
  24. CeiranHarmony Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    May 10, 2004
    star 5
    doesn´t work. when is it tyranny and when isn´t it? see the prequels..when does tyranny began? with palpatines election? or only in episode 3 right AFTER war and the purge? it isn´t a straight line and and knights like qui gon viewed this different than the council. your system only works if all see it the same way.
  25. Sinrebirth SWC and EUC Forum Moderator

    Manager
    Member Since:
    Nov 15, 2004
    star 7
    Being concerned about self-destruction = selfish = dark side

    And I view that Yes, it was the Will of the Force for the OJO to die.
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