[20,000] Magnum Opus: The Parallels of Jacen Solo and HIM Emperor Palpatine

Discussion in 'Literature' started by dp4m, Aug 30, 2005.

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  1. Fingolfin_Noldor Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Aug 10, 2004
    star 4
    What I think is, that Jacen became obsessed with the nature of the Force, but ignored everything around him. He became aloof. What he said in the meetings serve to highlight his arrogance. Leia should have answered him with a reprimand instead of being speechless.

    If there is to be in fact another Jedi Schism because of the conflict of authority, then so be it. It would be better that the Jedi learn from their mistakes the hard way, rather than to argue to the death over it. The Jedi are lost. War has changed them in a similar way as the war changed the Jedi in the Mandalorian war and at Malachor V. Clear, more might fall the same way that damnable Twilek has.
  2. JediJSolo Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Jun 11, 2001
    star 4
    Alynn: Perhaps, but considering how political the Hapans tend to be, and considing how Leia was fishing for information, I think that it's reasonable to expect that they were using the less literal definition.

    I don?t think so. The commander directly contradicted her when he said ?more peacekeeping than enforcing?, plus his orders apparently came directly from Tenel Ka. There were no bureaucratic comity involved with the orders he was given, and Tenel Ka is notorious for hating political double speak like that.

    Jacen was the one who provided them with the coordinates to the nest and apparently planned the logistics of the fleet's getting there which makes me think his involvement went a little further than simply making the request.

    You can?t ask for a blockade without telling the people where they should set it up.

    Except that the Chiss have that law about not attacking first, but bringing in the Hapan fleet provided them with an excuse not to make the first move.

    It?s fairly clear they were going to break that law. Jag essentially admitted he was going to attack the colony, when he said that Jaina saved his life by telling him to hold off. A number of other situations indicated that the Chiss were disagreying more and more with the adherence to that rule as it related to the Killiks even before Jag admitted he would have attacked preemptively. On page 279, Formbi makes it very clear that he disagrees with the law about not being aggressors (even though he doesn?t want to break the law simply because he doesn?t want to be exiled), and the fact that they were actively trying to starve out the Killiks to begin with is an aggressive act, even if it doesn?t technically fall under the Chiss definition; it may be passive aggressive, but it?s still aggressive.

    And Han seems to think that bringing in the Hapan fleet would start the war, and it did lead to a battle.

    A battle with far fewer casualties than would have been incurred otherwise. All this talk about so-and-so though it would lead to war? It wasn?t going to lead to war. The Chiss were threatening to remove their patrols from GA borders; not attack the GA. It didn?t lead to war.

    The road to hell, or the dark side as it were, is paved with good intentions.

    Yet it?s not just that Jacen had good intentions. Jacen did the right thing. You can?t go to hell for doing the right thing.

    Unless, of course, you had another idea about how you would have stopped the Chiss fleet that was on it?s way to wipe out the Killiks? The Hapans barely got there in time as it was. There wasn?t any time for talking the Chiss out of it. In fact, people were already trying that, and it wasn?t working in the slightest. Han and Leia didn?t have time to figure out and implement their plan to move the Killiks before the Chiss fleet was already at the Killik?s door step. Note that the battle was even over by the time they convinced the Killiks to move. By the time Leia got them to move, there wouldn?t have been a Killik left to go anywhere had Jacen not asked for that fleet to defend them.


    Jacen's biased. He's too arrogant to feel the need to explain his reasoning to any of the lesser peons who ask him, and it's still unclear as to whether he's a Joiner or not, in which case of course he'll say that it would buy time. Raynar said that the Chiss mutilated themselves. Alema said that Saba attacked a Chiss Joiner. That doesn't make it true. And Han said on page 299, "You think you know him...and then he goes and tries to start a war."


    The difference here is that the fleet did exactly what he said it would. And Han was being sarcastic. The guy hardly said anything seriously in the whole book. And who was he going to start a war with? The Chiss? They weren?t going to go to war with the GA. Aside from the fact that the GA weren?t the aggressors in this conflict (which you seem to think actually meant something to the Chiss), the Ch
  3. lexu Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    May 28, 2002
    star 6
    Let's not deny Jacen made some arrogant comments. Sure he did, that was his intention. IMHO, they weren't exactly tactful, but they weren't exactly wrong, either. He knew the government's motivation was in keeping friendly with the Chiss and the Killiks simply didn't factor into that equation. They were being starved to death, but they weren't members of the GA, so who cares? Jacen argued that as Jedi, their responsibility was to protect all life. They have to maintain higher moral standards. So then, is it false to say Omas was a lesser in that context? His morality was certainly less. His knowledge of the situation was less than Jacen's. His responisibility was less. And aside from all that, it was made clear throughout the book that Jacen's perspective, that is not taking orders from the GA, was shared by most of the Jedi for the very reasons represented in the Killik situation. Does anyone really believe that the Jedi should be motivated by petty political concerns? That they should be answerable to politicians and be used to serve their agendas? Obviously not. We wouldn't think much of the Jedi if they did, would we?

    The point of this whole thread is to compare Jacen to Palpatine. Personally, I just think the claims so far are really grasping. You can draw at least as many similarities between Jacen and Luke or Jacen and Yoda or Yoda and Palpatine. Hell, I think of other people as 'lessers' within certain contexts. Who doesn't? Doesn't mean I'm going Sith. :p Jacen obviously has personal conflicts and flaws, and maybe he even skirts with the Dark Side like many other Jedi have done. But his motivation is far from anything comparable to Palpatine's. Point being: in the ways that matter, Jacen is nothing like Palpatine. His character has always been fundamentally good. To reverse that now would be pretty inconsistent on the part of the authors and Del Rey. I'm not saying Jacen will never go dark, but he's definitely not the next Palpatine.
  4. Rouge77 Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    May 11, 2005
    star 5
    Your idea has to be posted in the kyle katarn threads! from there it will find its way to some authors! I like it.

    Thank for you kind words, but I really based it on your idea from an earlier post:

    right, I agree. too many characters are also difficult to write... see fanfavorites like kyle katarn, or the clones in karen traviss works. it would definitely sell.

    Yub, maybe more Tales anthologies of short stories. they sold well and had great fictions by fantastic authors.

    Yes, SW works also in short format. There are lot of uncollected, heard to get short stories that they could put together as an anthology.
  5. CeiranHarmony Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    May 10, 2004
    star 5
    thx and yub, they should collect these short stories, but I favor new short stories because I already got most of the old ones in a desperate hunt for completion.. well, it seems the hunt started a lifetime ago. And exploring the new Eras would be cool also. like NJO, post NJO, prequels, or KOTOR.
  6. Rouge77 Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    May 11, 2005
    star 5
    thx and yub, they should collect these short stories, but I favor new short stories because I already got most of the old ones in a desperate hunt for completion.. well, it seems the hunt started a lifetime ago. And exploring the new Eras would be cool also. like NJO, post NJO, prequels, or KOTOR.

    There are of course those new stories they publish in the SW Insider now and then, I would like to see them collected, as I don´t have a subscription on the magazine. I did use the 7 day Hyperscape membership offer to read most of their archived short stories.

    I too would like certainly to see some new territory covered in future works. The Bane novel seems to be sole piece for the next few years, which is certainly a pity. At least there will be the KOTOR comic. I look forward to it. When it was rumoured that the new Del Rey series that ended up being LoTF would be placed in the Old Republic era I was quite excited about the opportunities it offered, so I was disappointed that they decided otherwise. I would have gladly taken both the LoTF and an Old Republic era series.

    One thing they could do - and one that probably would interest a lot of people - would be to arrange a fan writing contest and publish the best. In the tradition of SW Adventure Journal.
  7. dp4m Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Nov 8, 2001
    star 9
    Really? Because Anakin Skywalker did the right thing by preventing Mace Windu from simply executing Palpatine in his office. How'd that turn out?

    If there was any point Lucas was making with the "you can turn most certainly to the Dark Side with perfectly good intentions," I think you missed it.

    No, he claims his reasons were sound BECAUSE he was a Jedi. It's a semantic difference which implies infallibility due to his status.
  8. Master_Keralys Sometime Technical Aide and Erstwhile Lit Mod

    Manager
    Member Since:
    Oct 8, 2003
    star 5
    Actually, in the context, he wasn't, DP. Sorry. :p

    He was actually stating that, as a Jedi, Omas had no direct authority over his actions unless he had already acted as a government official ordered Jacen as a citizen not to do what he did. He was a Jedi, not part of the bureacracy (that's the whole point of Jacen's behavior in that section, is to make that point to Omas, in case you missed it). When he said, "All you need to know is that my reasons were sound," he was pointing out that, really, that's all Omas as a gov't. official did need to know. Jacen hadn't been subpeonaed (or the SW equivalent thereof) and was thus under no obligation to tell Omas anything, even as just a citizen. And he, like several other of the Jedi, was mostly sick of Omas thinking the Jedi were a wing of the government under his command, and he (rather bluntly, and yes somewhat arrogantly, but quite effectively) made the point that this was not the case.

    He's not implying infallibility due to his status. He's implying that Omas had no right to question him any more than any other citizen not in gov't employ, and that as a Jedi he was separate from the gov't and responsible to act as his own conscience led.
    [face_laugh] You're stretching it, dp... Seriously. That was the whole point of that scene, particularly in the context of the novelization. Anakin did not do the right thing. It was life and death for Mace at that point (as is made clear moments later) - and more importantly, Mace was right. They could do nothing else to stop Palpatine/Sidious except kill him. Anakin made the WRONG choice there, not the right thing. AND, you don't exactly see Anakin try to arrest Palps after that, either. He makes his choice pretty quick.

    What Jacen did is not even close to comparable. He managed to give everyone enough time to prevent a war of xenocide on the part of the Chiss (btw - intentional OSC undertones, there, Denning?) That's really not arguable; we know that the Killiks would have been wiped out but for the Hapan fleet being there to protect them. And it's hardly an act of the dark side to save a species from annihilation by requesting a fleet be sent to save that species. In fact, to manipulate the situation so that both sides took grievous harm instead of both coming away relatively unscathed would have been more characteristic of a wannabe Palpatine... and that's the opposite of what Jacen did.

    - Keralys
  9. dp4m Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Nov 8, 2001
    star 9
    Er, what? He asked a citizen of the Galactic Alliance why he committed treason and the answer is: "I am a Jedi. All you need to know is that my reasons are sound." And you don't see a problem with that?

    No, Mace Windu had won the fight. Unless you believe that Palpatine intentionally threw away his lightsaber (which wasn't even remotely implied by the novelization either). Mace had won the fight. Palpatine *could* still be considered dangerous, but executing him -- an unarmed man -- was undoubtedly the WRONG thing and Anakin did the RIGHT thing to stop him.

    Now, you and I may argue morality -- and I certainly believe Palpatine needed to be executed right then and there -- but it's the WRONG thing to do.

    Anakin made the wrong choice for the RIGHT reasons. And therein lies all the difference...
  10. JediJSolo Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Jun 11, 2001
    star 4
    Master_Keralys went over some of this already, and did a very good job of it. However, this is what I typed up before reading his reply, and I think it justifiable to repeat some of there more important points anyway. :)

    Really? Because Anakin Skywalker did the right thing by preventing Mace Windu from simply executing Palpatine in his office.

    No, actually, he didn?t. Palpatine was too powerful to leave alive. The only other option left to the Jedi would have been what the old order did to Revan, and that was a violation of nature that even some of the masters who helped do it disagreed with. What?s more, stopping Mace from killing Palpatine didn?t turn out at all the way Anakin hoped it would (those ?good intentions?).

    The results were almost exactly what Jacen intended (delaying the Chiss long enough to save the Killiks). Not only did Jacen have good intentions, the result of his action turned out for the best. Even if you want to argue that Anakin?s action itself was right (which it wasn?t), the result of that action was undeniably terrible.

    Anakin both did the wrong thing, and the result of that action was exceptionally bad and not at all what he had intended. Jacen did the right thing, and the result was exactly what he had intended, and turned out for the best. The two situations are very different.


    It's a semantic difference which implies infallibility due to his status.

    You?re arguing supposed implication, rather than what Jacen actually said. His reasons were sound. That doesn?t make his conclusion infallible, nor does he claim it. (*points to Master_Keralys?s post for a more thorough response*)

    Edit:
    dp4m: Er, what? He asked a citizen of the Galactic Alliance why he committed treason and the answer is: "I am a Jedi. All you need to know is that my reasons are sound." And you don't see a problem with that?

    You have yet to establish conclusively how Jacen committed treason. Even in the Old Republic, setting up a blockade was a perfectly acceptable option when protecting one?s own or other?s interests.

    Palpatine *could* still be considered dangerous, but executing him -- an unarmed man -- was undoubtedly the WRONG thing and Anakin did the RIGHT thing to stop him.

    Maybe you didn?t notice, but even without his lightsaber, Palpatine was far from unarmed. That wasn?t a tackle he killed Mace with; it was a ranged weapon.

    Unless you?re claiming that killing a dangerous person who should be executed (even by your own admission) in a fair fight is always wrong? Which, IMO, doesn?t make any sense.

  11. dp4m Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Nov 8, 2001
    star 9
    So you're willing to bet Jacen's abilities on luck?
    Coincidence?
    Because without Alema attempting to murder Han and Leia -- which Jacen presumably didn't foresee -- they would not have found the planets to give the Killiks.

    So, you are left with two choices to satisfy Occam's Razor:

    1) Jacen knew that his parents were going to find a planet to give the Killiks as the result of one of his fellow Jedi Knights attempting to murder said parents and said nothing, or
    2) Jacen had no idea what the outcome of sending a war fleet of a GA ally against the war fleet of another GA ally was -- with all-out war between the two sides being a possible options -- and chose to do so anyways.

    I don't find either of those choices particularly appealing in a Jedi Knight, do you?

    It still doesn't change the fact that Anakin Skywalker did the wrong thing for the right reasons and Jacen Solo did the wrong thing for the wrong reason. The fact that two wrongs made a right in this case is wholly immaterial. ;)

    Here's the difference though: Han Solo is captured by the Yevetha. Leia is the Chief of State of the New Republic. Chewbacca has a Life Debt. Instead of putting OTHERS at risk to do what their conciences demand of them, Leia chooses the stability of the Republic over her husband's life and Chewbacca rigs up the Falcon on his own and proceeds to open his own can of whoop-[butt] on the Yevetha (accompanied by a family member who insists).

    Anakin Solo did the same thing for Tahiri.

    JACEN Solo, on the other hand, who once WOULD have done the same thing (see: Destiny's Way) has now learned that it's better to endanger an entire member-state of 63 worlds in order to satisfy his conscience. Palpatine would be proud.

    How can you define as what Jacen did anything other than treason?

    The Killik were of NO interest to the GA. They were not within the GA system. The Chiss were an allied state acting in THEIR own interests.

    Palpatine was perfectly dangerous without his lightsaber. I, personally as a human being, think he was too dangerous to live. But it's still the WRONG thing to do. It wasn't a fair fight at that point.
  12. rumsmuggler Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Aug 31, 2000
    star 7
    When you are fighting a Sith, there is no such thing as a fair fight, especially when powerful Sith are known to shoot lightning from their hands. It was a matter of kill or be killed by that point.
  13. dp4m Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Nov 8, 2001
    star 9
    Yep, you're right. The Jedi always did that in the past when defeating the Sith Lords.

    Like Ulic.
    And Exar Kun.
    And Revan.

    Oh, no wait, they didn't...
  14. Joser_Kyind Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Feb 10, 2005
    star 4
    They at least tried to kill Exar Kun, and, arguably, what Nomi did to Ulic was worse than killing him.
  15. Rohniss Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    May 9, 2005
    star 4
    actually from what I understand Exar got bombed from space and Revan and Ulic got cut off from the force.. which could be a fate worse than death.

    Ofcoure Sidious could still be extremely dangerous (politcally) without the force.
  16. JediJSolo Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Jun 11, 2001
    star 4
    dp4m, when one falls back on Occam?s Razor as their primary evidence, they essentially state that they have no evidence. Don?t bring Occam?s Razor into this. It will only lower the quality of the debate.

    Second, all out war between the Chiss and the GA wouldn?t have happened. Period. The Chiss aren?t that stupid, for one thing (they aren?t a galactic power, just a regional one). Second, the GA weren?t the aggressors in the conflict (as you yourself said, the GA didn?t authorize any of this), which, if one puts stock in Chiss law, means they wouldn?t have gone to war with them. Third, the Hapans weren?t meant to be aggressors either, placing the Hapan government in the same space of the GA. Fourth, the skirmish happened outside Chiss territory, which the Chiss had no legal right to (and also, by Chiss doctrine, means they can?t go to war with the people involved). Fifth, the Chiss never threatened to go to war with anyone. They threatened to remove patrols; that?s it.

    And, BTW, Jacen didn?t need to know how the conflict was going to be resolved. All he needed to know was that there was absolutely no way it would be resolved by letting the Chiss wipe out the Killiks. That?s common sense.

    Again, Jacen doesn?t say he was doing the right thing. He just says that his reasons were sound. Protecting the Killiks so the people involved have more time to resolve the issue is a sound reason.

    I?m the one saying Jacen was right. Jacen didn?t say so himself, because he couldn?t know that before he saw the end results. As readers, we have seen the end results, and it should be clear that those results were good. Therefore Jacen did the right thing.

    It still doesn't change the fact that Anakin Skywalker did the wrong thing for the right reasons and Jacen Solo did the wrong thing for the wrong reason. The fact that two wrongs made a right in this case is wholly immaterial.

    Jacen did the right thing for the right reason. You have yet to demonstrate otherwise. There was little or no threat of starting a war. The parties involved did so of their own free will. And as far as I can tell, the GA has no authority outside GA territory, and as that?s where all this took place, the GA didn?t really have any say in the matter to begin with.

    Here's the difference though: Han Solo is captured by the Yevetha. Leia is the Chief of State of the New Republic. Chewbacca has a Life Debt. Instead of putting OTHERS at risk to do what their conciences demand of them, Leia chooses the stability of the Republic over her husband's life and Chewbacca rigs up the Falcon on his own and proceeds to open his own can of whoop-[butt] on the Yevetha (accompanied by a family member who insists).

    Anakin Solo did the same thing for Tahiri.

    JACEN Solo, on the other hand, who once WOULD have done the same thing (see: Destiny's Way) has now learned that it's better to endanger an entire member-state of 63 worlds in order to satisfy his conscience. Palpatine would be proud.
    You might also note that Luke requested Talon Karrde to help protect the academy.

    If the job had required infiltration, or could have be accomplished by a single person, Jacen probably would have gone in by himself. But that wasn?t the case with the Conquest conflict, and it was even less the case here. The job required a fleet, and Jacen alone didn?t have one. That?s why he requested outside help. And as there was no need for anything beyond the fleet to pull off Jacen?s plan, his presence wasn?t required as far as he knew; unlike Conquest, where Anakin knew that he alone was required to keep Tahiri from falling to the Dark Side.

    That?s the difference. Though I didn?t read that part of BFC, I take it that Chewie managed to pull it off with just the Falcon (as you seem to indicate). A blockade is meant to block the routs to the area in question. Jacen wouldn?t have been able to block anything from a fleet of Chiss warships with a one man fighter.

    Even if Jacen teamed up with t
  17. MikeRPG Jedi Padawan

    Member Since:
    Dec 17, 2004
    First off, getting back to the original spirit of this topic (comparing Jacen to Palpatine), one of the major points made was that both sought greater understanding of the Force beyond what the Jedi had. THIS IS NOT A BAD THING! Consider a martial arts expert who decides to study ten different styles. Why? Because everyone has something to offer!

    Remember, according to Jacen's understanding of the Force, it is a person's actions that determine whether they're perceived as "good" or "evil." Palpatine's actions led towards his eventual (planned) domination of the galaxy. Jacen has already faced that potential within himself (read his battle vs. Onimi), and he has purged that desire from within. His goals are to learn and to heal, he gained the same healing tears ability of Vergere, while Onimi's (through his fang) were used to poison and dominate.

    Many are using Jacen's statements to Omas about the fleet as proof of his arrogance. Did he come off that way? Okay, I'll grant you that. But he learned from the Fallanassi to respect his own authority before that of any other. THAT IS NOT DARK! Remember, Akanah was pressuring him to stay until he found some light. The Fallanassi are devoted to non-violence.

    Next, the accusation of treason was more just Omas pissed about the situation. As far as I'm aware, Hapes in not a member of the GA, they are allies, just like the Chiss. Tenel Ka can listen to the advice and requests of the GA, but ultimately what she does with the Hapan fleets is not of the GA's darn business! People are saying either Jacen knew that his parents would find a planet for the Chiss or he had no idea how to solve the problem, and that either was not good. I say he didn't know how to solve the dilemma. What the fleet would have done is buy some TIME to come up with a solution. It was fortunate that Han and Leia had one readily available, but all Jacen was trying to do was buy some time until a solution could be reached.

    Personally, I find the whole no light/dark side perfectly acceptable, especially for Jacen. I don't think any of the rest of the Jedi are ready for it. Jacen has let his anger and hatred guide his actions a few times, but in the words of Anakin Solo's Force spirit, "Your dark side ain't all that dark, big brother." I think Jacen encompasses both light and dark within him harmoniously, which is why Akanah didn't sense any light, but neither did she say she felt any darkness.

    To conclude, I don't think Jacen is on even remotely the same path as Palpatine. I have no trouble believing that some of the other Jedi might interpret his actions incorrectly and think that way themselves, but Jacen has always considered others before himself, and I don't see that likely to change in the future.
  18. Rouge77 Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    May 11, 2005
    star 5
    First off, getting back to the original spirit of this topic (comparing Jacen to Palpatine), one of the major points made was that both sought greater understanding of the Force beyond what the Jedi had. THIS IS NOT A BAD THING! Consider a martial arts expert who decides to study ten different styles. Why? Because everyone has something to offer!

    Searching for a greater understanding of the Force is a more dangerous thing than studying ten different styles in martial arts. The Jedi had good reasons for limiting their search for knowledge of the Force. I think that in 25 000 years they had found the safe limits of using the Force - limits, which exceptional persons could sometimes extend further from the basic light side, but only on their own part.

    What comes to the martial arts, at worst one learns partially ten different styles and doesn´t excel in any of them. In what comes to the Force, at the worst case the person who searches for a greater understanding of it becames a threat to inhabitants of the whole galaxy. And the worst case scenario is more likelier than that the person in question learns to master both of them. I don´t claim that Jacen didn´t achieve a pecarious balance between light and dark in NJO, I just doubt that he can continue his balancing act.

    But he learned from the Fallanassi to respect his own authority before that of any other. THAT IS NOT DARK! Remember, Akanah was pressuring him to stay until he found some light. The Fallanassi are devoted to non-violence.

    The Fallanassi are as devoted to arrogance as they are to pacifism. They believe in the superiority of their own teachings. And the difference between Jacen and them is that they are non-violent! Jacen is not. He is probably the second most powerful Force user in the galaxy after his uncle Luke. He is not bind by the rules of the Fallanassi. He just excuses his own actions with their teachings.

    I think Jacen encompasses both light and dark within him harmoniously, which is why Akanah didn't sense any light, but neither did she say she felt any darkness.

    How can he be an all-around good guy if he encompasses both? Shouldn´t he be more neutral in his actions if he truly is both light and dark?

    To conclude, I don't think Jacen is on even remotely the same path as Palpatine. I have no trouble believing that some of the other Jedi might interpret his actions incorrectly and think that way themselves, but Jacen has always considered others before himself, and I don't see that likely to change in the future.

    We don´t know on what kind of path Palpatine was when he was Jacen´s age. And what comes to Jacen and his consideration towards others, yes, he has his good moments, but too often he thinks more about abstract ideas and the Force and too little about real people and what kind of effects his actions - or lack of them - have on their lives.
  19. Quiet_Mandalorian Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Apr 19, 2005
    star 5
    Perhaps the banana-republic "Peoples" variety, but I refer to real republics.
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