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  1. In Memory of LAJ_FETT: Please share your remembrances and condolences HERE

181st Imperial Discussion Group: Black Fleet Crisis: Tyrant's Test!

Discussion in 'Literature' started by beccatoria, Jul 31, 2008.

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  1. beccatoria

    beccatoria Jedi Grand Master star 4

    Registered:
    Dec 8, 2006
    Welcome everyone! And first, a word from our sponsors. Well, from me!

    Apologies for posting this a day early: it's because later today I get on an eleven hour flight and am moving from the UK to South Korea. I will definitely be checking in with this thread and look forward to all the excellent discussion we always get, but please accept my sincere apologies if I can't be around as much as I'd like and it takes me a few days to get back to you. I will definitely have internet access at least via net cafes and probably my new workplace, but I don't know how long it'll be before I have a regular connection at my new apartment. I'll do my best this month and hopefully by September everything will be back to normal.

    Now, that done with!

    This month the 181st Imperial Discussion Group will be discussing Black Fleet Crisis: Tyrant's Test by Michael P Kube-McDowell.

    Here's a link to the TFN Staff Reviews.

    As usual, here's a couple of discussion points that occured to me while reading the book, and please bring your own as well!

    - Now that we have the whole story, what did you think of the Fallannassi? Does their ability to mask things essentially forever, and even when there's no "obsever" to disguise it for, really make sense to you? Do you agree with their pacifistic teachings? Are you content with the explanation that the White Current is simply the Force in another guise? Did Akanah have anything useful to teach Luke or was she being presumptive in assuming it was her place to educate him through deception?

    - The Yevethan conflict was resolved very quickly once the political situation was resolved and Abaht was free to act. Obviously the defection of the Imperials and the assistance of the Fallannassi with their decoy targets helped greatly, but essentially, as one of the Yevetha noted, the "outsiders" were always able to overwhelm them through force of numbers. Did you find that the quick resolution of the situation aided the story by making it more about politics and morality, or did you think it was a wasted opportunity for a more Vong War-like campaign of brutality?

    - What did you make of the Qella storyline? Did it tie into the other storylines well enough or should it have had more of an impact on the ongoing Yevetha plotline? Did it end too abruptly? Was it enough to see the seeds of the Qella homeworld re-awakening or did you want a more "flashy" show?

    - Finally, now that we've read the entire trilogy, how do you think it holds together as a whole? Too long? Too short? Just right? Enough action? Enough character-based stuff? Enough world-building? What did ya think!

    Take it away!

    In September we will be discussing Cloak of Deception by James Luceno.

    In October we will be discussing the first three Young Jedi Knights books - Heirs of the Force, Shadow Academy and The Lost Ones by Kevin J. Anderson and Rebecca Moesta.
     
  2. Robimus

    Robimus Jedi Grand Master star 5

    Registered:
    Jul 6, 2007
    So while I didn't quite get through all of Shield of Lies, I must move on. So to Tyrants test it is![face_dancing]

    Loved the opening of this book for some of the same reasons I loved the early stuff in Before the Storm. Chewie and Lumpy are comic gold, even if they are not intented to be. It's like a tour de force tribute to the Star Wars Holiday Special from 1978.

    Now the first time I read this book I had never seen the Holiday Special, but had already heard of its greatness(or lack there of:p). Now having watched it I realize how much it adds to the overall sense of the Wookie scenes.

    I can visualize Lumpy, Malla and Idgy very well and look at the scenes of the Wookies talking and imagine they would be carrying on just like they did in that TV special.(If anyone hasn't seen the whole show, Chewie's family spends the first 15 full minutes basicly growling at each other in conversation)

    It adds a levity to an otherwise serious story, which comes across a little short on humor at times. While it probably wasn't the author's intention to do so, I found it to be a lot of fun. Also the mention of Salporin was great, harkening to the Thrawn Trilogy, another of my favorite Wookies.:)

    "This isn't bad. I've been beat up by experts. The Yevetha are strictly amateurs"-Han. Great line, very, very Han. Where I thought the author missed Han's character a bit in the past books this really captures his personality well.=D= Han never made much of a military man to me:p He should be wise cracking like this even in the face of certain death.

    Really liked Trenn Gant and Plat Mallor's interogation as well. He's pointed but not stupid(as I feel some of the NR military has been portrayed in the series).=D=

    Leia and Doman was another of those well written scenes Kube-McDowell seems to thrive on. Both characters have valid points of veiw.

    Also this book has a much better lay out than the previous installment. I flew through the first 40 pages with ease with it touching on several of the story arcs in that time. I was frustrated with the Shield of Lies format. I really didn't want to wait 200+pages to get to the heart of the story, Tyrants Test works much better in that reguard.:cool:
     
  3. Havac

    Havac Former Moderator star 7 VIP - Former Mod/RSA

    Registered:
    Sep 29, 2005
    I liked the idea of the Fallanassi, but their philosophy has never sat well with me. Their powers are interesting and novel, but they skew a little bit to the higher end of the Implausibly Powerful Spectrum -- they're really, really complex and plot-impacting stuff that only someone like Luke should really be able to pull off -- most the masking stuff. The more esoteric stuff like scribing is just a really interesting idea. The cloaking techniques, however, are the sort of stuff that's really dangerous to let the characters have and still have a believable story. They're useful for awesome OMGPWNED moments like with Luke in LOTF, but then you start to realize that with powers like that, why isn't this all over already, and you either have hobbling of the characters or seeming plot holes. I'm becoming increasingly wary of power escalation.

    As for Akanah, she's a weird sort of character. She certainly challenged Luke, but ultimately she was just using him, and Fallanassi philosophy remains uncompelling. Her value wasn't in changing the way Luke thought -- it was in challenging the way Luke thought, making him reconsider things a bit himself, but ultimately coming out confidently in favor of the Jedi philosophy of involvement, intervention, and responsibility-taking. She got him out of his burnout, but not by converting him to Fallanassi ways. K-Mac was great at introducing new ideas, challenging Luke with them, but ultimately not having Luke go, "Oh, you're right and I'm wrong." I don't like Akanah as a person or her philosophy, but her role as a character was great (Though I kind of wonder if the sex was necessary. She always struck me as Luke's oddest and most extraneous romance).

    On the Yevetha, I've said before that I wish the shooting war had been more extended. However, I don't think a long campaign was really in order. The Yevetha plotline is very much about challenges to the New Republic's ideals, to challenging the way Leia thinks. It's about the politics of getting into a war. The Yevetha are just powerful enough to be dangerous, to be someone you can't go in and just knock over and have war be an easy question. While I think a few more battles were in order to give us more of a feel for the war itself and not just have it be a postscript to two books of a war-buildup plotline, the fighting of the war itself wasn't really what it was about. Once Leia was firmly committed to war, the real questions the BFC was dealing with were resolved. The main plotline was over, and now that they finally committed, it was just time for the cleanup. The war itself was still a little underwhelming, however, but for the final battle itself, which was a knockout. The fact that the New Republic was going in simultaneously at world after world was a nice touch reminding us of the fact that they were a superior power and gives an epic feel to it, and A'baht's opening speech was supremely badass. I also loved the Sorannon plotline and the way the Imperials turned the tables on the Yevetha exactly the way the Yevetha had turned the tables on the Imperials. I also loved seeing Imperials as the "good guys" or at least the "less bad guys" in a great foreshadowing of their future role in the galaxy.

    I was fine with the Qella story -- it never tied in to the main plot, and it never really had to. It was just there to entertain and to showcase a really great adventure with great characterization. I actually felt it was more impressive by just showing the very beginning of a restoration process, of a sort of cold, beautiful hope for the far future, than seeing the Qella suddenly come back to life. That would have seemed a bit cheesy. It would also be harder to explain. The one thing that struck me as off about the ending was that it was the ending. The C plot was concluded after the A and B plots. That's usually awkward, and it was here. After the B plot was resolved in a stunning reveal and fed into the A plot, which concluded with a huge warring bang, then we get the rather quiet resolution of the C plot. The excitement of th
     
  4. Charlemagne19

    Charlemagne19 Chosen One star 8

    Registered:
    Jul 30, 2000
    Unsurprisingly, I disagree with Havac. The Fallassai's powers are no different from what Aleema has. Aleema is nothing more than a minor Sith Witch and she's able to fool the Republic forces of an entire fleet with her illusions (that are almost identical to the Fallassai in that they also seem to fool sensors---or maybe they are affecting the people AT the sensors).

    Then again, I hate when the Force is played as Parlor tricks. People can't seem to stand when their precious technology is shown up by the REAL masters of the universe.

    I think Akanah reminds me most of Aerith from Final Fantasy VII out of all of the various other characters you could compare them to. Unfortunately, they removed all of her fundamental warmth and decency. Had Akanah not been lying to Luke all this time and trying to play the Mysterious Bene Gesserit with him then they could have made a truly interesting romance for them.

    I also think that the ending to the Yevetha was underwhelming. Clearly, the author wanted the Black Fleet to end up in the hands of the Empire but forgot that Byss didn't exist. Ironically, had the author just said "Imperial space" the ending would have been much more ominous. Instead, I found the Imperial insertion as slave labor to be frankly a little silly and just undercut the Yevetha.

    Ultimately, I also disliked the resolution to the Qella. It was a way of showing that Luke had become EVEN MORE powerful but I couldn't really by the science fiction hand-waving that a people survived the CRUSHING OF THEIR MOON. Likewise, more than the introduction of Force Illusions; you'd think the Republic would want some of that self-repairing technology.
     
  5. Havac

    Havac Former Moderator star 7 VIP - Former Mod/RSA

    Registered:
    Sep 29, 2005
    Well, I have the same concerns over that. I'm not seeing your point.
     
  6. Charlemagne19

    Charlemagne19 Chosen One star 8

    Registered:
    Jul 30, 2000
    I'm suggesting that the limits that the Force can do are fairly well established in the EU and they worked very well for both stories.
     
  7. Thanos6

    Thanos6 Jedi Padawan star 4

    Registered:
    Apr 20, 1999
    I loved this book. Best of the three, I think. The battle of N'zoth gets me cheering every time, especially the defecting Imperials.

    And Nil Spaar's fate? Genius. KMac made us hate him so much that a simple death wouldn't be satisfying enough...
     
  8. JediAlly

    JediAlly Jedi Grand Master star 4

    Registered:
    Oct 31, 2000
    As I said in the previous posts, I didn't care much for the Qella/Lando story, so that's my two cents on that.

    As for Leia, I liked how she was portrayed as being conflicted in her motivation to wage war on the Yevethans - justice for those whom they had slaughtered or wanting to get her husband back. I liked how she tried to convince Doman Beruss to stop his vote of no-confidence, but it was consulting with Mon Mothma that managed to help Leia clear her mind and make a decision for the right reason. I also liked how she more or less told Beruss, "You betrayed me. I had hoped you would trust my judgment and my integrity, but it appears you never did. As such, our friendship is over. I never knew you. And I consider you a political enemy from here on out."

    Fortunately, Chewie and his group took direct action to save Han, thus saving Leia a major heartache. I'm surprised, however, she didn't order an investigation as to who supported the Yevethans, and then order their arrest and imprisonment. Maybe that took place afterwards and didn't make it into the book.

    I don't recall much about the fleet action, but I do think they should have expanded it a little. Shame about Plat Mallar dying in the battle. Being shot down and forced to go EV - fine. But not killed. It was a waste of a character who could have been of great help in the NJO.

    I do think, though, that it was a case of poetic justice and sweet revenge that the captured Imperials retook the Imperial ships and cut the fleet strength at least in half when they fled. Unfortunately, those ships still posed a threat to the NR, though I do believe most of them have been accounted for - either found destroyed or serving other Imperial factions. So at least the NR was still aware of their existence.

    Before I continue, I want to digress to Remnant for a moment, since a plotline in that novel had its origins in the BFC. Though the Fia and other victims of the Yevetha were part of the NR, and as such were enemies of the Vong, to them, the Vong were a distant enemy on the rim of the galaxy. They feared that one day the Yevethans would return and conquer them again. They saw the Yevethans as the greater and more immediate threat. To these victims, the NR stopped the Yevethans, but they didn't put an end to the Yevethan threat, which was what they wanted. The Yuuzhan Vongs arrived and said "We'll take of them in exchange for providing us with some resources." So if it meant a permanent end to an enemy they feared would return one day, then they had no regrets with making such a deal with the Vongs.

    Now back to Tyrant's Test, and I'll finish with Luke and Akanah. As far as Akanah goes, she should definitely have been honest with Luke from the get-go. However, she did a great job at portraying the "third side" of the war - the victims who were caught in the crossfire, which I described in the previous thread centering on Shield of Lies. Personally, I don't think she and Luke got as close as some people thought they did, but that's just a side note. I also think that by taking Luke away, she did him a favor. Luke managed to learn what was going on in the galaxy at large and what happened with his family. It made him realize he still had a role to play. Not as big as he did in the past, but he still had work to do. Included in that work is being an active member of his family. He wasn't going to give up on finding his mother, and he said as much to Leia. But he realized that he was already part of a family, and he had neglected that family for long enough.

    As for the Fallanassi, I reiterate what I said in the previous thread about their policy of non-involvement. I would have thought they would have faded into obscurity had Wialu not say to Luke, "When the time comes, have Leia come to us. We will accept her." Or something like that. Considering how Leia felt about the Force at this time, if she had to learn to use it, I think she would have found the Fallanassi way more appealing than the Jedi way because the F
     
  9. Charlemagne19

    Charlemagne19 Chosen One star 8

    Registered:
    Jul 30, 2000
    I somewhat doubt it's that easy to learn F-powers to be honest. If Vergere wanted them captured (which she did) then there was little they could do about it.

    I also disagree about Leia. People seem to forget she's far more hot tempered and easy going about violence than Luke. I never liked that statement because it represents a complete and utter misjudgment about which Twin is the less violent one. Leia is the warrior, Luke is the peacemaker.
     
  10. Jedi Ben

    Jedi Ben Chosen One star 9

    Registered:
    Jul 19, 1999
    Yep, it was focused on the question of what you do when you're top dog, how should you act in the face of an aggressive but still weaker power? Not an easy question but complicated by the Empire's legacy.

    The storming of the SSD by Chewie and a bunch of hacked off Wooks has to be the highlight of the book for me. My friend's captured and being tortured aboard an SSD in the heart of the enemy fleet? Right, we'll just go and busy him out!

    I have to agree the Battle of N'Zoth was an abbreviated affair and really shouldn't have been, for if the conduct of the NR was what at stake, then we should have seen the battle and how it was waged, instead we got the details aftewards - that the Yevetha fought to destruction, rather than surrendur their ships, that this was rarely seen.

    I didn't really care for Leia here, now Hans captured she's seeing the Yevetha for what they were? And for someone who goes on about trust she gave her military commanders precious little, but still, she does a great speech and everyone forgives her...how..."nice".

    Still a good conclusion and easily the best of the 3.
     
  11. Nobody145

    Nobody145 Force Ghost star 5

    Registered:
    Feb 9, 2007
    I haven't reread the book in depth yet, but yeah, Chewbacca's rescue was one of the definite highlights of the book. I know he doesn't get the chance at that kind of action often, but when he does, it is very awesome (another reason why it was a bad idea to kill Chewbacca). Although my only complaint about that rescue is that it suceeded mainly because a conveniently placed Fallanasi was there to cover them. But love how it incorporated Chewie's Wookiee background into it too, as well as showing off a smuggler's retreat, you can never get too many of those. It was another facet to the Star Wars underworld, where Han and Chewie came from when first introduced in the movies, an element that most corners of the EU is sorely lacking in these days. It was also nice how Drayson passed some information along that way.

    And while it might've been nice to see the final fleet battle in more detail, its not like it would've been all that interesting to read about. There were some heroic moments, like when that lone survivor flies out in a captain's starfighter and saves the ship, but otherwise, it was a long, slow slugging match. Once the Imp ships were gone, then it was a foregone conclusiion, and reading repeated scenes of New Republic offers for surrender being ignored, until the Yevethan ship blows up, would've gotten repetitious fast.

    And glad to finally get rid of that annoying, self-righteous Akanah. Not that I ever cared much for her or the Fallanasi much. At least with the Dathomir witches, there's a clear power gap between their "spells" and Jedi skills (though their spells are still useful for somethings, like as a Force glow-stick, or stuff like that). At least the Fallanasi helped out with the final battle a little bit, but still. But after the prequels, it seems really silly how they wouldn't tell Luke that his mother never had anything to do with the Fallanasi, ever. And back when I first read this, years ago, that last parting shot from them, where they told Luke to go away, but that Luke's sister would be welcome, I almost groaned, thinking that it was another female cult or something like that, and they were rejecting Luke but willing to accept Leia on that basis alone. Although I had read originally Courtship of Princess Leia at about the same time as this trilogy (within a year or so of each other), so that might've influenced my original reaction since Hapes is not a nice place. And not sure what the original intent was, but since Jacen later went to study with them, guess they were just saying they were too good for Luke to ever try out for the Fallanasi, but Leia, who I think they never met in person (or even talked to over the Holonet) could join. Still though, I don't think this was an intentional snubbing on the author's part, or meant as an insult to Luke, but rather, it was simply a very seperate Force tradition that had no interest in contact with Jedi, and its not like everybody has to get along with the Jedi in one big Force-family. Of course, this was years before the prequels, so now the norm is to hate and fear the Jedi in a galaxy that doesn't understand nor want them most of the time, so the Fallanasi hermit routine seems to make a lot more sense in current times. And yeah, the Luke-Akanah thing was kinda... odd, but meh, she was probably reasonably attractive, so anything goes.

    This is probably my favorite book of the trilogy, mainly because it ties up all the plotlines. Assuming I'm not mixing up events between the second and third book, Leia's speech was a particularly nice moment. Now, after Episode III, it could be seen a light contrast to Palpatine's declartion of the Galactic Empire, where democracy died with applause, but instead, here, Leia drew the moral line, and the majority supported her. There were dissenters, but at this point, the Senate wasn't the circus it would be during the Yuuzhan Vong War, at least not yet.

    Never cared much for the Qella story, but it ended on a nice note, was a neat sci-fi story (though honestly, it seemed a bit Star Trek-ian
     
  12. Havac

    Havac Former Moderator star 7 VIP - Former Mod/RSA

    Registered:
    Sep 29, 2005
    I thought it was rather appropriate, really. It puts a very human face on war -- the last survivor of Polneye, desperate to avenge his homeworld . . . takes a job as a ferry pilot, because that's all he can get. And then, when the ship is in distress, he hops into a fighter and dies heroically, saving the ship . . . but anonymously. It just seems a very appropriate bittersweet ending for Mallar -- more realistic than having him take down Spaar himself or some such nonsense, and more satisfying than having him survive and be stuck flying ferries around for the rest of his life without that motivation. On some level, it seems like what Mallar would want, and I think K-Mac really nailed the sense of beautiful tragedy there. He could have survived and had a satisfying future role, but we have plenty of pilots already, and K-Mac didn't really have any reason to think the character would ever be picked up and used again with the way the EU was going at the time. He gave him a satisfying resolution within the trilogy. I have no complaints.

    Also, I have to comment on Chewbacca's rescue -- it was incredible. K-Mac treats Chewie with far more respect than any other author. He takes him seriously, gives him actual dialogue, deals with his family and his legendary reputation among the Wookiees, develops his relationship with his son and so develops Waroo, and understands that Chewie is one serious badass himself and that he's going to let absolutely nothing keep him from doing his duty to Han -- and his family and friends are going to do their duty as well. Utterly fantastic portrayal of Chewie, his family, and Wookiee culture.
     
  13. ChildOfWinds

    ChildOfWinds Chosen One star 6

    Registered:
    Apr 7, 2001
    I think Tyrant's Test was the best of the trilogy. I like the way the author tied up all of the loose ends, wrapping everything up so well. And it's SO nice to have a satisfying ending for the good guys! There has been so little of that in the post RotJ EU.

    Luke actually ended up tying all three sections together. He was, of course, involved in his own thread with Akanah and the Fallanassi; he joined the main thread by bringing the Fallanassi to A'baht and the fleet in the Koornacht Cluster to try to prevent war by providing ship illusions; and he ended up in Lando's thread, helping the Qella with the rebirth of their world, and using his newly learned Fallanassi skill to hide the Qella ship.

    While I still can't stand Akanah (She was way too deceitful, self-righteous, and manipulative), and I thought most of those Fallanassi were pretty arrogant and judgmental, I do think that the journey Luke took was a valuable one. While I don't know how he came to fix the problem for which he had built his hermitage in the first place (the constant bombardment of pleas from everyone everywhere wanting his help), Luke came back from that trip changed, refreshed, and reconnected...to his family, to the galaxy, and to his job and responsibilities as a Jedi. I liked the way the author wrote: "The ship was like a tiny chrysalis, and it was his (Luke's) metamorphosis that was underway".

    Luke also learned a valuable skill that not only helped the Qella, but which protected the Jedi Academy and the Jedi children for a very long time during the YV war. Too bad it wasn't used on the Myrkr mission with Luke and Mara hiding themselves instead of sending the teenage Jedi on a suicide mission though. :(

    I liked Luke's words about the Force: "The Force is a river from which many can drink, and the training of the Jedi is not the only cup that can catch it." We know that Luke has learned from many of those "cups": Fallanassi, Dathomiri, Jensaari, Jedi, and Jacen learned from perhaps even more.

    There was a fun little paragraph when Luke downloaded his messages, giving us a glimpse of Luke's life as a "celebrity" : "As always, there were hundreds of blind messages--love letters and propositions, requests for personal favors, questions from amateur and would-be Jedi, the occasional diatribe from an Imperialist stubbornly resisting the idea that his world had changed." I love the way Kube-McDowell includes those small little "slice-of-life details and descriptions that make his story-telling so rich.

    Another example of this was Leia planting sasalea blossoms: "...none of the other things she might have been doing that evening had half the appeal of burying her hands in the cool, moist soil, crumbling it between her fingers, cradling each sasalea plant gently into its new home. On a day where nothing she had tackled had yielded to her efforts, it was intensely gratifying to take on a task where every element was under her control--spade and earth, stalk and blossom. Her vision., her time, her labor, her triumph, her satisfaction. It was a balm for her whole being." Nice writing!

    I was glad that Luke destroyed the hermitage, but I never did understand why he destroyed the fighter that Ackbar had given him along with it. :confused:

    It turned out that I was right about those stormtroopers on Lucazec from Before the Storm: they were only illusions which Akanah used to test Luke. Which was quite a feat on Akanah's part. They seemed SO real, even to Luke. Those Fallanassi are truly amazing! The Fallanassi aboard Spaar's ship was even able to make Nil Spaar and everyone else believe that all of the prisoners, including Han, were there, even though they were all safely away! Truly astounding work! And of course, they were able to hide the H'kig and their magnificent building on J't'p'tan.

    Havac, although the author probably meant otherwise, I choose to believe that there was no sexual interaction between Akanah and Luke. I use the following words as my "escape clause" : "Loneliness, grief, compassion, an
     
  14. beccatoria

    beccatoria Jedi Grand Master star 4

    Registered:
    Dec 8, 2006
    Awesome! What a treat to come back to such interesting and in-depth reviews. I'm afraid I'm here on borrowed net-time so I'll have to forego responding in detail, but I will throw in my two cents -

    Firstly, I agree with the general consensus that this was the best of the trilogy and for me, it made up for the somewhat disappointing SoL, which I found trying in terms of structure and - though I'd be hardpressed to nail why - I just didn't think was as well written. It's probably entirely subjective, but passages in the first and final books that I would have found "slice-of-life" delicious, instead seemed perfunctory and like padding. I think perhaps I was simply allowing my frustration with the slow-moving plot and "thirds" structure to affect my opinion, though.

    But back to TT.

    Ben put it brilliantly. I think, when I saw the BFC crisis resolved so swiftly, with a single battle, I finally understood what this series was about. How to confront conflict; how to act ethically in the wake of the Empire. And to his credit, KMac does not give us easy answers, nor does he force false epiphanies on any of the characters or have them change their fundamental characterisation. Leia still stands firm, and behaves in accordance with that fabulous (thank you Windy for quoting it!) quote from Mon Mothma. Luke maintains his belief in the ways of the Jedi. Han is...well, Han was never in danger of being anything other than himself! And even Chewie, when confronted by a difficult situation, lives his convictions and manages to not only save Han but also provide his son with a chance to complete his ritual journey to adulthood.

    (Thank you forever, KMac for fixing "Lumpy"'s name...)

    Akanah was never supposed to be a Vergere figure: a credible philosophical opponent. She was always intended to fail and only to sharpen Luke's own beliefs. The same way the politicians opposing Leia were.

    So on the one hand, I give KMac madawesome props for not simply making either of them two dimensional, for trying to tell stories about people with real religious/political worldviews that make sense even if they don't seem right to the reader. On the other, he has to walk a fine balance so as not to annoy the reader. I think that's a large part of what bugged me about Akanah, more than "wrong but interesting" character usually bother me: I forgot she was essentially a strawman for Luke to knock down. So much about the way she's presented - especially when I first read it and didn't know they weren't allowed to reveal the name of Luke's mother - made me try to fit her into that "Vergere" mode. That wise-but-cryptic teacher mode. I wanted her to make sense so I was always offended when she didn't.

    My fault in part, but I do wonder - and don't feel qualified to answer - whether that's a pitfall of the character that others experienced or that could have been avoided?

    I really enjoyed the Chewie rescue scene, but I guess that goes without saying? I did feel that in some ways it was squeezed in. The entire thing was told in only a handful of scenes, and it was told well. But if anything that made me arch an eyebrow and wonder if it wasn't symbollic of Chewie's treatment in most of the EU: what we got was good, but we never got enough.

    I wonder how his character would have developed had all the authors simply adopted KMac's habit of [allowing Chewbacca to speak]?

    And finally, Plat Mallar.

    Seriously. Plat. You slay me. COME BACK. :_|

    It was a fitting end. But the loss of Polneye, from his perspective, nearly moved me to tears for the first time in...forever while reading a book. He kept me going through SoL. PLAT. I DON'T CARE IF IT'S THE PERFECT ENDING FOR YOUR CHARACTER! COME BACK!
     
  15. Havac

    Havac Former Moderator star 7 VIP - Former Mod/RSA

    Registered:
    Sep 29, 2005
    No, I totally agree. The way she was presented from the beginning was as someone who was coming in to shake up Luke's worldview. The fact that Luke took her seriously and spent basically three books trying to understand her and starting to buy in definitely cast her in a different light than if he'd spent three books really arguing with her and resisting; even at the end, he still wants to learn, because he's Luke and that's who he is: open, polite, and willing to hear you out and accept the idea that he doesn't know it all even if he can't really agree with your overall point. In that sense, I'm not sure I'd want it to be presented differently. I liked the way Luke dealt with her as being true to his character, and I liked that the author took the character's views seriously rather than setting her up as an obvious strongman. He made her a legitimate challenge to his views, one Luke took seriously and one the reader took seriously, before affirming that Luke really was right -- but needed that opposing viewpoint to his test him and let him realize that.
     
  16. RK_Striker_JK_5

    RK_Striker_JK_5 Force Ghost star 7

    Registered:
    Jul 2, 2003
    I'd like Plat to come back, too, Becca. :( A bad end for him, IMHO.

    Ah, Chewie... I look at you here and weep. Not for your butt-kikcing rescue of Han, not for getting more characterization here than in the rest of the EU, but... yeah. Actually, for that. That it had to happen in such a confined space here. *Glares at the NJO* Use him like this! Use Lowie like this!
     
  17. beccatoria

    beccatoria Jedi Grand Master star 4

    Registered:
    Dec 8, 2006
    You know, I really wish I could better remember my original responses to Akanah and how seriously I was able to take her at the time. Knowing that she's lying and isn't right really frames the entire trilogy differently and makes it hard for me to get a genuine read on whether I think there should have been some more coherency to her views or some more challenges earlier on.

    I'm not sure I think it's a bad end for him entirely. I think it has literary merit and makes sense from a story perspective given the tale that KMac was trying to tell. When I read it it didn't come across as a blunt instrument beating me over the head screaming, "IT'S MOVING AND TRAGIC, STANG IT!" the way some character deaths do. And honestly, given the way KMac constantly used the "one scene to sketch out some characters and make you care, the next scene to kill them!" motif - and he did it well, but he also did it frequently - I think that someone we cared about a little more and were at least hoping would make it through needed to to die so as not to retrospectively make that motif seem cheap?

    In terms of literary shelf-life, no one else would have used Mallar. This way, he's more memorable for being tragic and for being genuinely affecting, far more so than your average one-story minor character. In terms of a fictional character, that's the greater achievement.

    <b>BUT I STILL HATE IT.</b> Because I loved Plat Mallar. I really did. And now he's in little goopy bits in space.

    It's just in this case, that was a) the point and b) not a point I thought came off as cliche and overdone.

    I hate it because I'm supposed to?

    But blah, I'm blathering now!

    Anyway, guys, apologies again for my extremely sporadic posting this month. I still don't have a regular internet connection at my house and I just started a new full time job teaching small children whose language I don't speak in a school that is made out of sheer chaos and I'm acclimitising to that, but my reduced presence here is something I hope to have largely rectified by next month.

    [:D]
     
  18. Thanos6

    Thanos6 Jedi Padawan star 4

    Registered:
    Apr 20, 1999
    Interesting...my best friend is teaching English in South Korea.
     
  19. RK_Striker_JK_5

    RK_Striker_JK_5 Force Ghost star 7

    Registered:
    Jul 2, 2003
    Sorry, but no. That is the worst reason to kill someone off. Not gonna be used? Fine. Drop him into limbo until such time that he can be used. Don't kill him just to kill him!
     
  20. Nobody145

    Nobody145 Force Ghost star 5

    Registered:
    Feb 9, 2007
    I was sad to see Plat die, especially with no one ever really knowing his fate, since at the time, he just jumped into the Captain's starfighter, flew off and died heroically, though as the officers said, he was just one of many, many heroes. But now, in hindsight, after the NJO and LotF, I'm glad he was killed off, and his story finished. I got so tired of NJO books digging up old Bantam characters and ugh, usually the circumstances weren't nice or were depressing at the very least (that Uldir guy nearly got captured by the Peace Brigade, Dorsk 82 died defending droids, etc.). Better to die heroically, than be stuck in limbo and come back and suffer a worse fate. Most of the Del Rey books have shown that limbo is better than coming back. Ackbar at least should probably remember Plat, though probably never know his exact fate, but that should be enough.
     
  21. Havac

    Havac Former Moderator star 7 VIP - Former Mod/RSA

    Registered:
    Sep 29, 2005
    The mistake you're making is in assuming that all death is purposeless. He wasn't killed just to kill him. Plat was killed to give him a heroic end that wrapped up his story in a bittersweet manner rather than having him be a minor hero and just kind of disappear. As becca says, more memorable, more affecting, greater literary effect. Remember, this was the Bantam era, when if you weren't a super-major character, a Zahn-Stackpole character, or a character written by someone who would be returning to the universe, you didn't have a chance in hell of showing back up again. So K-Mac told his story about his character rather than leave him dangling for the unlikely event someone else picked up a completely irrelevant third-string character whose story is already over. Plat's story is that of a man whose homeworld is destroyed and who is consumed by a desire to avenge that loss. After he does that and the Yevetha are gone, his story is over. You can tell more stories with him in them, but his arc is over.

    The fact that you don't care for it is unfortunate, but doesn't make it purposeless or just because he was unlikely to ever be used again.
     
  22. beccatoria

    beccatoria Jedi Grand Master star 4

    Registered:
    Dec 8, 2006
    Thanos - It's actually a fairly common thing to do as it's very easy to get a job, it pays reasonably well and as long as you have a degree you're technically qualified (though I'm also a qualified TESOL teacher, but that's not actually necessary). The downside is, you have to move to a country where you probably can't understand the writing and deal with being pretty isolated for a long time, though in my case at least I also have my husband. So far it's...interesting. Rather, it's murderous chaos more interested in making money than teaching kids anything, but at least in this school you get text books which is more than can be said for some places. /tangent

    Striker - I have to say I agree with Hav. It's because I don't think it was "just" a death. I honestly think that his story is better and more interesting for dying then rather than fading away and never returning. Because for all you say, drop him into limbo until, I don't believe that day would ever arrive. At least not with a story that would be anything like as good for him as this one.

    Because Plat Mallar isn't real so the rules that define his existence and the worth of that existence are, to me, different to the rules that define the existence of someone in the real world. If he was an actual human being of course I wouldn't want him to die. But in stories...sometimes I like it when someone other than the villain bites the dust. I dislike a lot of shock deaths not because someone died but because I think a character death is a fictional trope that is very easy to abuse. It's tragic so it must immediately be deep! It will immediately move the reader! Bad authors sometimes use it when they can't think of another way to evoke emotion or a sense of dread.

    But in this instance, I felt it was a considered decision and added to my emotional journey within the book.

    Viewed against the backdrop of the Bantam era, KMac was trying to establish a very different tenor to his series. He went to lengths to give us specific military data, the details of government administration, a man-on-the-ground view of several different branches of governmental, military and civilian organisations. He was attempting to write a war with a far more "realistic" (for lack of a better word) spin - with all the attendant jargon and red tape and maneuvering - than we usually see.

    KMac's goal was to show the experience of a footsoldier, and the experience of a man who had lost everything and to whom the conflict mattered on a much more personal level. I'd argue that to maintain that "realism" that KMac was aiming for, one of the "everyman" soldiers had to die, or the fourth wall of his constructed reality would have been broken: for all his detail and redshirt deaths in avalanches, the war still spares the characters we like - as omniscient reader.

    I'm not trying to say that this "the world goes on as it goes on and the details matter," approach is inherently superior to others, or that you ought to like it better. But I do think that it is a valid approach, and one that is somewhat unusual for the Bantam era and therefore needed a firmer application. And I think that KMac succeeded in the approach and that Mallar's death was an integral part of that success.

    I hope that explains my stance a little better?
     
  23. Excellence

    Excellence Jedi Knight star 7

    Registered:
    Jul 28, 2002

    The book had plenty of great moments. From Brand's ILC-905 battle to Mallar earning his keep slow and low, to the political tension to the Pelts' audacious assault on the Superstar. That was worth the book alone. The opening alone would have surprised readers -- actual Wookiee speech, unseen before. Liked the Tholatin scene too.

    Slick dialogue and slicker action, the Prakith chase scene of the Lady Luck. Pakkpekatt grinned my mouth more than once. Eckels' technobabble shows Michael was capable of high diction but doesn't use it for no reason, like Reeves and the Lucenopedia. The astonishment as the vagabond's beams reached out 3000 klicks and imploded a satellite was funny.

    Liked Spaar bashing the beetroot out of Solo on live holonet. Your holy characters weren't untouchable. Wialu was described as just wearing a wrap that started from waist to hip . . . so she was, like, totally naked from waist up, right?

    The Imp insurrection camem out of nowhere. Good. Took you by surprised. The holy heroes don't always win everything.

    In short, damn good book.
     
  24. Robimus

    Robimus Jedi Grand Master star 5

    Registered:
    Jul 6, 2007
    Still chugging along at about page 150. A few thoughts......

    Luke is finally starting to come around to where I actually think he should be :p I haven't enjoyed his presentation in this series as I had hoped he'd moved past many of his more "youthful" needs by now. At least he's come to the point where he's considering that he may be getting "etionally blackmailed" is nice.

    Also Luke getting messages from his secret admirers, fans and the like seems a bit far fetched. Is his phone number, the phone number of the Grand Master of the Jedi Order public knowledge? Really? Maybe I can get George Lucas's private number. Please PM me if you have it, I really want to talk to him and tell him how much I love his universe.....:p

    Cindel Towani and The Life Monitor is simply brilliant[face_love]. I'm glad to see the Ewoks movies getting a small inclusion in the EU beyond themselves. Added to the more recent writings in Fury it really ties them into the overall universe quite well. I think I completely missed her appearance many years ago[face_thinking]

    Lando's subplot is moving along with C3PO activating the slave circuit on the Lady Luck. Stupid droid, but yet another arguement for droid sentience I believe:D And Colonel Pakkpekatt isn't so dumn after all.

    Drayson wonders why the News Media has been left in the control of the civilians? The military points of veiw in this series are very strong, thus far constantly suggesting that the military is always right, and painting the elected politicians as naive and un sure of themselves. I can't help but veiw the series as taking a shot or two at democracy with the whole "Wow, this confrontation would be long over if we were in charge" veiw from the military. Ah, but Leia's time is coming I think if my memory has any ability left.........
     
  25. MistrX

    MistrX Jedi Master star 4

    Registered:
    Jun 20, 2006
    Having just finished this yesterday, it was about as abrupt as I remember it being. I am somewhat disappointed that this big confrontation wasn't quite as long as I had expected from the buildup. We do get the emphasis on the cost of that final battle, of course, and Plat Mallar's story ends as many probably expected it to, but that doesn't make it any less tragic or heroic.

    The Imperial insurrection and pullout seemed to come a bit out of nowhere and serves somewhat as a deus ex machina for our heroes. On the other hand, it's very poetic justice for our sadistic adversaries, who really fall in an uprising similar to one that opened up the trilogy and gave the Yevethan much of what they needed for their rise to power. Bit of circular structure there.

    With Lando's story, I was somewhat surprised that it didn't involve the vagabond team as much as I thought it would. We actually get quite a bit of Pakkpekket and his small crew, which I found to be quite interesting. Too bad they don't really return after this story. They were entertaining to read about.

    Chewie's rescue of Han was about as dramatic as I remember (and translated 'wook! Yay!) and Leia's scene where she declares war in the League was rather uplifting. Chewie's unstoppable force really reminds me of a moment from the Corellian trilogy, which I read only a few years ago, when Han is worried that trusting the Selonians might put his kids in danger if something goes wrong, but that he ends up doing it because he knows they could never get past Chewbacca. It's moments like this that show why.

    Nice to see Luke reach the end of his journey and realized the important things in his life. That moment where he sees the battered and injured Han, Chewie asking where Luke was and later Han asking if he would have come after him had he known I think really sits with Luke and is a big part of helping him with his decision at the end of the book.

    I have to say, I liked reading Jaina and Jacen's reactions to Han's capture since it really seemed to fit their personalities later in life (at least during NJO). I don't know if that was established in YJK or not, but still, nice touch.

    The Fallannassi certainly have a powerful and useful ability. I actually wonder if that has to do with all of the Force hiding we get to see in LOTF. I can't say I really agree with their pacifism. It can be good in the right circumstances, but when the chips are down, Tycho's thoughts about it tend to win out for me. I'll take the Jedi way.

    It's interesting to me how done right, a book that has so much exposition and dialogue and just plain characters talking to each other can flow and run well and smoothly. As with the other two books, seeing the New Republic government and military personnel lends for a fascinating story. I'm not sure we ever get the look at Brand that we get here, we get the continuing look at Leia and her closest advisers, Alpha Blue, etc. I enjoyed it more that I'd expected.

    Yeah, but wouldn't these guys, living in isolation in Yevethan captivity, perhaps not know about Byss' destruction and head in its direction regardless?

    For some reason, somewhat surprisingly to me, the thing that struck me most about that scene was Drayson's reaction to it. For whatever reason, maybe because he's the head of this secret section of Intelligence or something, throughout the trilogy Drayson was to me this calm, clever, and always calculating presence who never lost his co
     
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