181st Imperial Discussion Group: Darth Maul: Shadow Hunter!

Welcome everyone!

This month, the 181st Imperial Discussion Group will be talking about Darth Maul: Shadow Hunter by Michael Reaves.

Here's a link to the TF.N Staff Reviews.

As always, I'll post a few optional discussion points and jump into the chat later. So!

- Maul, Maul, Maul. One of the few chances we get to see inside his head at the terrifyingly disciplined embodiment of rage Sidious has created. What did you think of his characterisation? Viscerally powerful? Two-dimensional? Frighteningly efficient as he tied up every last loose end, or comically ineffective as a droid and a drunk smuggler evaded him repeatedly?

- The novel revolves around Reaves' original characters and characters who aren't major players in the wider EU. Did you like their inclusion or would you have preferred to see Obi-Wan, for example, in a larger role? Did their status confirm to you that they were doomed to die (of course this ties into the timeline issues because no one can know about the Sith before TPM)? If so, did that ruin the book or heighten the tragedy? What did you think of the characters themselves?

- The plot! It's a very compact book - essentially a chase that occurs over a few days. I believe Reaves was gunning for a relentless pace of action and breathless investigation. Did he succeed?

- The writing! I don't know about anyone else, but I haven't read much of anything by Reaves before and his style was quite surprising. Quite straightforward in terms of grammatical structure but fond of unusual words leaving me with the impression that the man is a walking thesaurus. It's a style I haven't seen much in a while: plainer prose or deliberately colloquial styles seem to be in fashion at the moment rather than this omniscient and well-spoken third person POV. Did you enjoy the style or find it distracting?

And...take it away!

In December we will be discussing Young Jedi Knights - Books 4 - 6 by Kevin J Anderson and Rebecca Moesta.

 

I think it's a testament to Reaves' skill that despite the fact that the ending is, as you say, essentially a foregone conclusion from the start, you're left hoping, hoping - almost believing - that it won't end the way it has to. Even when you're reading the last ten or so pages, and know with 99% certainty that something really bad is going to happen any time now, you're thinking that maybe, just maybe, it won't.

Then it does, of course, in what is easily one of the most tragic endings to any Star Wars novel I've ever read. I think it's a perfect end to the story - inevitable, sad, tragic, very powerful. Lorn falling down in front of Palpatine, realizing that he's finally safe, is a real gut punch. It's a great novel all around, probably Reaves' best. And it is amazing that it can be so thrilling and suspenseful when you can tell from the blurb how it's going to end. Good stuff.

And I-Five is awesome. But you know that, right?

 

I liked how he characterised Maul. He portrayed him realistically as a guy who was good at what he did, but still made mistakes while he was pursuing the man and his droid. He didn't get made into a Cannon Sue like some authors will do with movie characters *cough* Luke *cough*. Some people might say "Oh Maul made mistakes, he was an idiot" but in real life, people don't have the fore-knowledge like the reader does, and only go on what they know at the time. So he made the character real.

He made Maul scary, I remember the scene where he decribed him keeping up with the floating taxi thing the heros where on, bounding after them with unnatural speed and strength. I think that was really cool.

I kind of knew the characters where going to bite it in the end, but part of me hoped the man would end up getting away anyway, as it was sad seeing characters I liked get offed.

 

This book is the Terminator of the EU. The amazing thing about the book is the reader knows that no one can survive Maul yet the tension is palpable throughout the novel. It may be the most effective "ticking-clock" thriller ever written in the EU. It reads better than both Coruscant Nights novels, the DM:Shadow Hunter successors.

And Darth Maul didn't need a Juno Eclipse to drive him around and make him feel all mushy inside. We know that touching Maul's heart isn't possible.

The great thing about Maul's character in Shadow Hunter is that he is nothing but a killing machine and doesn't question that. Unlike Starkiller, he never questions his loyalties, he doesn't have a hidden morality. He doesn't feel quilt, and he absolutely does not stop.

 

I think you mean guilt, but I agree that he also doesn't feel a quilt.

 

I found Shadow Hunter to be somewhat less interesting than its contemporary, Luceno's Cloak of Deception. Yet, strangely, I found the short story by Luceno himself which was included with SH to be far less appealing than SH itself.

Reaves' skill in simplicity is considerable, as he worked with only a few days and a few characters, yet still delivered an enjoyable read. The detective-novel tone did indeed keep my nose in the book quite well.

The life of non-famous Jedi was just what I was looking for after seeing Episode I. Not too many subsequent books pulled this off without overdoing it a bit.

Maul, sadly, I found to be quite like his movie appearance: of single purpose. This is something I find more enjoyable with background characters, and would have liked to get more of a window on Maul's personality. There has to be one, somewhere.

 

2 Things:

1) Concerning the ending: It wasn't so obvious when the book first came out. At that time, folks were arguing left and right about whether Palpatine was Sidious. This was the first official source to actually give some clue that they were, in fact, the same bloke, but even after SH came out (and it was never that famous to begin with), tons of people insisted that Palpatine was Sidious's brother/father/clone/twin/sister/etc. We laugh about it now, but back then Sidious' identity was like the Darth Krayt mystery. Reeves played off of it really well.

Too bad time has erased that element of mystery in the novel.

2) Nute Gunray naked. The book was totally worth it just for that image.

 

>>>At that time, folks were arguing left and right about whether Palpatine was Sidious.


What mystery? The Emperor ( clearly Sidious ) was called Palpatine at the time of ROTJ.

 

I've gotta agree with the general consensus here. I didn't think I was really going to enjoy this book, but it was actually really well done. Considering it was obvious everyone had to die because no one in TPM knew about the Sith, I still found myself hoping they wouldn't. And the sheer sense of frustration, disappointment and sorrow that I felt when Pavan managed to survive EVERYTHING, down to an encounter with Maul by himself, only to finally, finally get to safety and hand the holocron to the worst person possible while believing everything was going to be okay was, well, large.

So bravo, Mr Reaves. Well played, sir.

I think on the Maul issue, I come down closer to Manisphere than Graestan. Yes, Maul is essentially a one-track one-trick character. He is rage, anger, control only in service to brutality. But I also found myself fascinated by him and by his single-minded sense of purpose. His pride and focus. It's interesting, given his rather precise use of language that Reaves managed to convey to me someone who was literally boiling over with rage without ever resorting to really describing that rage, but rather sticking with at times very technical descriptions of Maul's actions and his unwavering focus.

No. No it wasn't.

*gouges out her mind's eye*

I wasn't around in online fandom at the time, though I know that when I watched TPM for some reason I was certain that Palpatine and Sidious were the same person.

I believe though, that the conspiracy theories abounded because Palpatine=Sidious seemed almost too obvious, and as Coffee explains, people were theorising that perhaps this was another Palpatine - a brother or clone or something.

I think people just wanted a twisty reveal where none was planned.

Though it would have been interesting if they had played that up more and somehow managed to keep us from realising who Palpatine was until the end of AotC. Might have been a nice "I am your father," parallel and, you know, given that movie more of a point.

 

The best part of the book is the artificial suspense. What I never liked about Death Star was the Deus Ex Machina at the back of he book. Basically, the irritating Hand of God that saved our heroes from what was an obvious tragic fate to die at the hands of the galaxy's greatest hero. I won't argue anymore (Havac pointed out I was wrong and I accept that) that they did die, but it still was an enormous cop-out.

The enormous cop-out is actually something that is a Star Wars tradition. Particularly, in the concerns of generating a Happy Ending. Sometimes, it works extraordinarily well. Quinlan Vos manages to survive Order 66 and so does Tholme. I really couldn't care less about T'sarra but the fact is that Quinlan's survival didn't really hurt my enjoyment because it was earned. I would have been seriously irritated, however, had he ever met Luke Skywalker like Krunchy or Tree Lady.

Shadow Hunter does a masterful job of trying to fake out the reader. We know that Naboo is going to be invaded but there's other ways to prevent Darth Maul from succeeding in his mission. The carbonite business at the end, I was *SURE* would result in our plucky heroine surviving long enough to be revived only after the events of The Phantom Menace. Darth Maul might have also succeeded in preventing the holocube from falling into the hands of the Republic but failing to kill Lorn. Obi Wan Kenobi's presence in the book is a major fake out.

We know that Obi Wan is a great hero and we're waiting for him to be the calvary that will drive off the bad guy (Darth Maul not wanting to engage more Jedi at this time).

The ending, however, is an honest one. Darth Maul manages to suceed in his grim task and eliminate all of the good guys before proceeding on to his next mission. Darth Bane's novels are amongst the few Star Wars novels where this grim ending is allowed and the bad guys win. The Prequels are less satisfying for many because of this but here it works out perfectly as it restores some of Darth Maul's lost dignity. He never becomes a particularly deep character but the story here shows him off beautifully in a way he never got to be in The Phantom Menace.

 

I suppose I should have mentioned in my post that at the time I considered SH to be not all that great of a book, just good enough to keep me reading it. But that was before all the books that came after it.

 

SH was well written and very colorful. It kept me on the edge of my seat for days. Darth Maul came out a a vicious killer who would not fail or disappoint Sidious. The inclusion of characters that are going to die is a great thing. "Hey, I have major characters that are important ot the story, but instead of letting them live, I'll just kill them." That's how great the book is. None of the characters survive, with the exceptions to those who must because of TPM.

Pavan and Darsha arguing throughout the majority of their time was priceless.

 

I remember this book as nothing particalrly special, but then I'm not a fan of Reaves or Perry or both together But give it another chance I will because Star Wars is a forgiving galaxy....

Chapter 1: I like Reaves take on the Neimoidians. Gunray, Haako and Dofine were presented in a good light, true to the films.

Darth Maul's section of the chapter is a little less interesting. For me less is more when dealing with these iconic characters. Boba Fett hardly moved in the films unless he was in action, and it made him more menacing because of it. I wish Maul's intro had been more like that, perhaps him meditating, really getting into his head instead of the mindless action against the droids.

I did like the mention of Maul vs Black Sun, Teras Kasi and Exar Kun. Nice little continuity drops helping to tie the universe together.

Chapter 2: Lorn Pavan and I-Five are interesting underworld character, dealing with Zippa for the holocron. Reaves always captures the Coruscant underworld very well. At time I trip over his ultra wordy style(more now as its increased ten fold with Coruscant Nights), but he captures Coruscant in a way the other authors do not and I'll give him credit for it.

I-Five is Reaves A+ character and it was nice to review his first appearance. Love the droid

Chapter 3: Reaves is one of the first authors I remember to really ask questions of the Jedi Order through his work, issues I had found myself thinking about for a long time, even as far back as the Original Trilogy. I'm twisted I know, and have been accused many a time about not understanding what Star Wars is because of my views.

But there are questions to ask, and Reaves delivers on some of thesae questions in subtle ways through Darsha Assant, Master Bondara and later Lorn Pavan. Darsha is obviously proud of her accoplishments, her rescue from a dull, normal life in a foster home. Mace assigns her a dangerous mission, Bondara fears for her.

She feels special, good for her, but I can't help but feel like the Jedi manipulation was at work. Maybe what was best for her wasn't being a Jedi, but she never even has the sense to consider this, so intent on earning the approval of her Master and the Council. At least Bondara shows some nice concern. Sending a Padawan to deal with Black Sun seems like a bit of over kill for promotion to Jedi Knighthood to me.

I'm sure I'll touch more on this as I read on, and I know it wont be popular, but so be it

Chapter 4: I-Five has some awesome moments trying to decypher Lorn's insult, great stuff

"Damn Jedi, they did this to me" Preach on Lorn, preach on!

More to come soon.

 

At the time of Phantom Menace though, only the hardcore fans knew this. 99% of the people I talked to didn't including my casual Star Wars friends. It wasn't common knowledge to the masses and I heard more times than I could count "I wonder who the second Sith is?" You have to look at from from the POV of the average movie goer, and I think that aspect of that novel kept the secret for that reason.

 

I don't mean to be insulting to those who didn't make the connection at first but I assumed we (all OT fans) all recognized Palpatine as the gnarled grey face that tortued Luke in ROTJ from the first moment Palpatine was introduced.

 

You weren't insulting, don't be silly . Anybody who checked the casting would figure it out pretty quick, people I met just don't have much interest in the credits, they were along for the ride, not looking for spoilers n'such.

 

I wanted to like this. Really I did. Commenor's orbit Michael fought me every step of the way. Determined and Drowning Pool's Hate playing, I ploughed on, trying to ignore the heavy diction wordage and predictable plot mocking me. But stick and stone don't break Jabba's bone; and the bone of contention was Maul.

Maul. Who is he? Where was the background? Why does a single NEGTC page have more data on the bloke than the entire book? Frack Starbuck, I wanted to know this guy. You didn't get to know Pavan either--yet another scofflaw outlaw. Yet another protocol model droid. Wisecracking and laser shooting, Davros would sneer. Sneer.

Michael knows his star wars lore. The world was described without Lucenopedia's ridiculously pointless drivel; he knew his society and paraphernalia. But why say tergiversator when you can say traitor? You don't use massive words in a simple short sentence. Complexify your sentence then.

The pace was horriffically slow. This is what he did. He writes every pov entering a room, Maul, the bounty hunter, outlaw. The same thing, doing the same thing, all book long. You just read someone walking in, why do it for each face?

Fracking editors sitting around doing nothing, you're not worth a penny.

"None shall live."

The line of the book. I'll give Maul that much. No, I don't know who this Maul is. I shall call him John. Every second name in a book is called John. Why not another? To make Johnny more interesting, readable, some flashbacks wouldn't have hurt. He needn't have thought to himself with italics, but you pretty much read him just going through the motions.

Enough of Johnny, lets get to Assant. Moons of Commenor, we had ourselves a wimp mage. Which was all fine and candy, they're pretty much all wimps, aren't they? Right? Fine, don't agree with me. Stench of democracy. Where was I? Right. Right. Assant is trapped in the dangerous underlevels. No communications. No transport. But she's got this thing in her head--she could have called to that tower full of magi, you know. Which would have ruined the plot. Possibly; possibly not. I'm saying, she wasn't as helpless as she made herself out to be, and that's what I wanted to see addressed. She's got some skifters up her sleeve, use or negate them. Did I like her? No. I don't know her. She's just there for a book, so how can readers invest that emotion, that care?

Bondara.

The room darkens. The temperature cools.

Eyes narrow. Mine.

Mister Bondara: superb duelist, master of this and master of that. One page. One page is all we got with him. I wanted to see a fight. I wanted a midbook showdown. All right, thought he was outclassed, fine, but gives us a fight. We know Maul won't die before the movie, but give us some fun. The way the mage Quick Ben took on three draconian goddesses in Reaper's Gale. Who by rights should have swatted that mortal from their regal path. They got a surprise, all right. Don't just die on me Bondara like that, give us surprise, some fight.

Seems like everyone can see Maul's a Sith on a second's reflection, but one thing did ruffle me above and beyond it all: the hunter shoots a wrist rocket at Maul--

Activate Matrix slow-motion...

Maul spins around... blades carving a hole... down through the floor...another hole through the wall...

The rocket is still shooting...

Wow. That's some awesome speed there. Between the blip it would take to go from launch to explosion, Horney head is through the floor and through a wall. Nup. I don't buy that.

Nup!

This book had serious potential. It could have rocked. But essentially, you didn't get some Johnny background; you don't get to know Pavan and Assant; storyline was just bland and unsurprising at every time. Michael did show enough flair and poise to warrant further reading, and he does have the potential to show better.

 

Combined with CoD and its separate Sidious and Palpatine POVs and you had a decent case at the time. I especially liked that later pre-RotS EU kept up this little game--well, except Traviss's TCW. It's the one thing that upset me about that novel. <_<

 

And all the masses didn't get see the camera pan across the faces, stopping at Ian as the question was asked, who was slain, the master or the apprentice?

As Ian talks night side and creatinng life to Hayden on the opera, there just happens to be a huge "overy" with "sperm" swimming all over?

It wasn't exactly subtle.

 

If Shmi supplied the egg, where did the sperm come from? Shmi had mentioned that she had not been with a man recently enough for Anakin to have been born when he did. Unless some man's "little guys" had the potential to live extra long "lives."

Excellence did bring up a point that I had forgotten about, one that I think would have added to the book. We do see a lot of Maul action scenes, but we don't really get into his head. We don't learn too much more about him, just that he had to keep secret information from getting leaked to the wrong people. Some things that would have been interesting would be, what was it like for him growing up, and realizing that he was not the same species as his Master? Did Maul ever think of his Master as a father? (I am only saying that because this is the only real reason I can think of for Maul's near-fantastic level of devotion, given that he has basically been raised from a baby by this guy. Plus Maulie seems to give off that vibe when he's with Sids)
Stuff like the ideas I threw out would be interesting to see, even just something little that fleshes him out. We need more of that I think.

 

You know what happens when you assume.

My sentiments exactly.

 

I really enjoyed the book, I read it in only one or two days (which I only do when I truly "can't put a novel down"). I can't even say why, it's just written in a way that I respond to. I had a much, much harder time with Cloak of Deception, for example.

It's not really a "Darth Maul" novel, that much is certain. The same happened with the supposed Vader novel Dark Lord - sometimes they seem to use the bad guy as a PR stunt and then do another "safe" good guy story instead. Darth Bane is really niche compared to this. But if you get past the idea of this being the ultimate Maul novel, it's really great. Maul just works better if we don't know what he had for breakfast. The Darth Maul Journal went into that direction, uncovering Maul's past, but to pull that off, you would really have needed to change the perspective of the story and create a character out of that stunning visual presence.

So, thinking about it, what we see is Maul - no background, no way to unravel the inner workings, but a force of nature that is just there. Just like in Episode 1.

It's great to see this work with non-movie main characters, and Obi-Wan's cameo subplot is excellent. It's also honest to Obi-Wan when he's shown as a truly capable Jedi.



As for the other discussion going on... yeah, back then there was lots of crazy talk about Sidious and Palpatine. Those were the days...

Everyone was forced to keep it ambiguos, just like this novel did (in a magnificient fan service kind of way). And there were oh so many people who believed crazy theories, I think the clone idea was the most prominent. It was surely harder for general audiences who didn't connect the Emperor with Ian McDiarmid and who don't think that cinematic language is just as much about making sense as normal language, so they wouldn't show Palpatine in that scene if it didn't mean anything.

But to underline the fact that there were really lots of people going around who had no clue about SW... in Germany, Sidious and Palpatine got two different voice actors in the same movie. Fair enough, they had learned their lesson for Episode 2 (and even if they hadn't, the foreign language soundtracks were all assembled at Skywalker Ranch anyway that time around). And I'm not sure, but I think when Palps' voice drops in Episode 3, they didn't just alter the voice but made a connection to the Ep1 Sith voice again... but that might be wishful thinking, I never compared the scenes...

 

Don't forger cloak of deception man that was a good book.

 

EX Posted: But why say tergiversator when you can say traitor? You don't use massive words in a simple short sentence. Complexify your sentence then.

I think he'd be better served to un-complexify everything

Of course Mr.Reaves was not using the advanced vocab nearly as much in his earlier Star Wars books as he does in the Coruscant Nights Trilogy, but re-reading this book I certainly notice the developing trend.

EX posted:And all the masses didn't get see the camera pan across the faces, stopping at Ian as the question was asked, who was slain, the master or the apprentice?

It wasn't exactly subtle.

I think the close up on Palpatine was meant more for the hardcore fans as well. Like I say if people looked into the situation at all it was easy, everyone on this board would totally know what was going on, but most the people paying for tickets were not as hardcore as we are Someone not in the know could have suspected Mace as easily as anyone. T'was a backward mystery.

Chapter 5: Nice Sidious POV, almost eachoed in a later chapter by Maul. So lets count, through 5 chapters we have three Jedi hating characters and one incompetent Padawan. Darsha wasn't exactly lighting the world on fire.....

Chapter 6: Gosh , nothing happens in this chapter....

Chapter 7: So Darsha kinda handles the Raptors, but not really. Gets Oolth killed, without ever stopping to think "Maybe normal folk aren't that good at flying"

Chapter 8: I-Five can cure hangovers...why are these two broke again? Maul follows Lorn and I-Five, nothing exciting. Thus far this novel has done absolutly zero with the Character of Darth Maul, maybe this is why I don't remeber liking way back when I first read it.

Chapter 9: Call for help Darsha. Dead people have no pride.......I-Five does some bank fraud...why are these two broke again?

Chapter 10: Lihnn reminds me too much of the Jedi gun slinger from Coruscant Nights.....Maul dealing with Hath and then Lihnn left me wanting more, it almost made him seem weak in some ways....Lorn is now in Maul's sights, yet from what I've seen thus far I-Five seems very capable of dealing with the Sith Lord himself

 

Re: Sid/Palp

Some fans, myself among them, figured Lucas might be planning a twist of some kind. It isn't that far-fetched when you consider the Emperor in ROTJ isn't named, thus the average movie-goer, short of knowing which actor plays who and remembering Ian McDiarmuid was in ROTJ, isn't likely to hear the name 'Palpatine' and think 'bad guy'!

Now back to the book....

This came out on the back of a comic series also entitled Darth Maul, written by Ron Marz and drawn by some artist by the name of Jan Duursema. (Whatever happened to her? ) The book picked up the one loose end from that and added further twists. It has to be said this is one of the best examples of book-comic coordination.

As to the book, it gave a new perspective on the Jedi, returned us to the seediness that was absent from the very shiny TPM and was a fast-paced action tale where the bad guys really do win - and it makes sense that they do. It also gave us Lorn, a great character and then there's I-Five! Literature? It ain't that but it is damn entertaining and it was a perfect commute read.