181st Imperial Discussion Group: Shatterpoint!

Hi everyone!

This month the 181st Imperial Discussion Group will be discussing Shatterpoint by Matthew Stover.

Here's a link to the TF.n Staff Reviews.

Per usual, here are some discussion points to kick start the conversation.

- War Is Hell! The theme of this novel is fairly straightforward even if the philosophical points about civilisation, nature and the role of the Jedi are not. It's an extremely dark story, one of the darkest in the EU and is a good deal more graphically violent than most EU literature. Do you feel this was a strength? A weakness? What are your thoughts on the aesthetic Stover brings to the tale?

- The Jedi Will Lose This War. Now, full disclosure, I loved that line; the truth of it - even if the Republic win, the Jedi will lose. But I invoke it here to question your thoughts on the dark side and how it's handled. Depa Billaba seemed to have falled simply from an inability to cope when every choice meant more loss of life; it drove her insane and dark. Mace Windu, on the other hand struggles with his simple love of fighting and something in the jungle that seems to enhance that. What did you make of the way the dark side was treated for the various characters?

- Original Characters. Nick Rostu, Kar Vastor and Lorz Geptun; strong personalities, very different, pretty iconic despite the fact they have only ever been reused by Stover in his most recent entry into the EU. How do you feel about them?

- The Setting. Stover creates a fairly unique world here, with the noxious fumes forcing people to live upcountry, the ecology of the jungle and the Force-sensitive Korunnai. The setting itself is almost a character, although we are also invited to query that fact, per Rostu's constant reminders that personifying the jungle is dangerous. It provides the foundation for one of the chief messages (to my mind) of the novel; the antithesis of the trendy "back to nature" messages we are bombarded with, the myths of noble savages living in harmony with their environment, and actually posits that heroism lies in fighting nature and building civilisation. Of course, set against the fact that the people at war with the jungle are currently no more civilised than those who want to use it. How did you find Stover's use of setting, or am I the only crazy girl who thought it was a major, major element in the story?

And, GO!

In July we will be discussing The Courtship of Princess Leia by Dave Wolverton.

 

First of all, Shatterpoint was the first EU novel I actually read, after a little dabbling back in the 1990s. Therefore, it had a major influence on what I expect from a Star Wars novel and how I view the universe in general. It is one of my favourite books ever.

It didn't seem especially graphic or dark to me. Sure, it's a journey into the Heart of Darkness (which I read back in school and rehashed hundreds of times in RPG^^), but it is unusual because the main character is neither especially idealistic nor naive. "War sucks" isn't something he has to learn - he knows. Therefore, his journey is markedly different from that of Marlowe. It isn't so much about self discovery and more about facing demons he already knows are there.

Actually, no, they won't. They won't lose the war, if they understand what they are fighting for and why. This is the major conclusion Mace reaches, and the reason why the book doesn't seem so dark to me. In the grand scheme of things, this war isn't about politics, it isn't about who calls the shots in the Republic (yeah, it is also about that), it's there to make the Jedi fall. To get them killed off and make them fall. But, and that is what I take out of this book - it doesn't work. It worked on poor Depa, and a handful of others, but on the majority of the Jedi it did not work.

I liked the portrayal of the Dark Side here, as something lying in wait under the surface, the primal, untamed, wild, selfish instincts that can take so many shapes and forms. Depa went insane from believing she had to win - to make the best possible for everyone. Mace understood that sometimes you CAN'T win, and you won't. Sometimes all choices are bad. Then you have to take the best and push through, anyway. "We don't have to win. All we have to do is to fight." That's pretty much Mace's credo, and it is a very good one.

First of all, Nick also had a guest appearance in the first Coruscant Nights book. And he is one of the more memorable Star Wars characters, despite being nothing but a "funny sidekick" on first glance. Nick is the living proof that "leading by example" works.^^ Also, Geptun is a very memorable person, because it is unusual that a hero is continually 'outsmarted'. "I keep forgetting that he is smarter than me." I loved that we saw what would become of them in Shadows of Mindor. Now, Kar Vastor is of course a dark mirror image of Mace - even he gets that. That makes him more of a story device than a character, and therefore he is the least memorable of them all.

 

A lot of people have made the comparison to Heart of Darkness. This is a valid interpretation. For those of you who haven't read the original Joseph Conrad Classic, the basic premise is that the protagonist (Marlow) is hired by the Company to go fetch one of its officials. Kurtz. Kurtz has gone insane from being abandoned by the Company's Manager to die. However, rather than die, Kurtz has used his incredible charisma and natural talent to enslave the local natives and proceeds to attempt to carry out his mission irregardless of the obviousness of its pointlessness now. Kurtz murders and tortures while employing his slave natives to steal ivory in order to build up a stockpile of it, which is his job. Of course, the Company isn't collecting the ivory that he is supposed to be sending because Kurtz was left to die. Finally, Marlow retrieves Kurtz but he's so utterly sick and removed from civilization that his encounter with the man is brief before he dies. His last words are "The horror, the horror" before sinking into blackness.

Apocalypse Now is the most famous adaptation of Joseph Conrad's work and is appropriate because Francis Ford Coppola was a close associate of George Lucas after the first Star Wars movie. George almost finaced Apocalypse Now but had already spent literally his entire massive profits from Star Wars, financing The Empire Strikes Back in order to maintain complete creative control. The movement of the novel from imperialist Africa to Vietnam and Cambodia was surprisingly smoothe because the fundamental dehumanizing aspects of the conflict were preserved. People from so-called civilization were destroyed by their being forced to do brutal things in order to survive a foreign environment. The main difference in the novel aside from setting is that Colonel Kurtz is not sent to be retrieved by Marlow. Instead, the Marlow character of Captain Benjamen Willard is sent to kill Colonel Kurtz from the beginning.

In the case of Shatterpoint, Mathew Stover inverts a number of these themes and combines the two sources while moving the novel's setting to the jungles of Halruun Kal. Mace Windu does not develop a sympathy and understanding of Colonel Kurtz. Instead, he begins the novel with a deep understanding of Depa Billaba from the very beginning. She is his daughter figure and he is her superior officer. Marlow is a civilized man that comes to enter the jungle where no civilization reigns. Mace Windu is hardly a passive observer but a man who is superhuman and attempts to bring civilization into the jungle.

The biggest difference between the novels is that Mace Windu actually suceeds in civilizing the Jungle of Halruun Kal. Mace Windu's fight against the Jungle is ultimately pointless because Coruscant will eventually be covered in jungle (a reference to the Yuuzhan Vong invasion) and the Jedi will be destroyed by the Empire. However, ultimately, their dogged refusal to STOP fighting the embodiment of the Dark Side is something that will allow Coruscant to be retaken from the Jungle and the Jedi to be reborn. In a bizarre way, Mace Windu is another literary character from a vastly different genre. Kal-El of Krypton a.k.a Clark Kent a.k.a Superman. Mace Windu understands what Depa cannot accept, the battle against evil is a neverending battle. It cannot be one, only continued to the next generation. Many Star Wars fans who complain about the generational strife of the GFFA should learn from his example.

In many respects, it's a good thing that Depa Billaba is almost a complete blank slate before we encounter her in Shatterpoint. Aside from Jedi Council: Emissaries to Malastare we know almost nothing about her. Had she been a better developed character, we might have had to explain why X and X in her past may have lead to such events as her nervous breakdown. Here, there is a satisfying lack of explanation and no Freud. There is nothing to telegraph her fall to the Dark Side. For all intents and purposes, Depa Billaba was a good and moral Jed

 

Actually, I took the line from Mindor as irony, and bitter irony at that. "You are not afraid of the Dark." No Luke isn't, and that's why he falls a few years later in Dark Empire. Besides, Kar never fell. He just is the way he is. Mace was willing to give him a chance, but Kar blew it. Luke doesn't redeem Kar, he just talks him into not fighting in a confused and disorienting situation, far away from Kar's natural environment.

 

I took it as a reaffirmation that Luke is the perfect Jedi and while he stumbles, he never breaks.

 

Luke may be the [erfect jedi if he was at least consistent, but that's a whole 'nother story.

the battle against evil is a neverending battle. It cannot be one, only continued to the next generation. Many Star Wars fans who complain about the generational strife of the GFFA should learn from his example.


There's a line in the Harry Potter novels that resembles this Charles.

But for all the darkness that Shatterpoint is, I consider it one of the funniest novels of the EU. Particularly with Nick, it's one of the ways he managed to stay sane.

"Hey Windu! Happy name day!"

There's also elements of the western in this novel that convinced me that Mace should be in one. It led to a fan fic that was a birthday present a few years back

 

I think "You are not afraid of the Dark" is more complex than either extreme. Luke Skywalker's strength is that he is not afraid of the dark. He fights it, he struggles to avoid falling to it, he stands up against it. But it does not terrify him. He is not stricken by fear that he might fall, fear of darksiders. He's not paralyzed by self-doubt, and he doesn't give in to fear or hatred of the enemy. Instead, he approaches the dark side with love, with understanding, with forgiveness. He is not afraid of the dark; he opposes it compassionately.

And that does help him fall to the dark side eventually, but I think what's more important is that after DE, Luke loses that aspect of himself which is so key. He becomes afraid of the dark. He still has compassion, but he has moments, long moments, especially as he ages and has more time to look back on his earlier fall, in which he's paralyzed by self-doubt and fear of falling. In the Yuuzhan Vong War especially, Luke became afraid of the dark. Hearteningly, it's something he always recovers from, but I think SOM is a powerful commentary on the fact that Luke needs to get back to never being afraid of the dark, to reclaiming his greatest strength as a Jedi, the thing that makes him so truly great.

 

Hi. My first post here.

I already posted a review at swbooks.co.uk. I will reuse it, but since I have more space to elaborate here, I will work it out a little more.

I am not a fan. Not a hater either, but space opera just never has been what rocks my socks off. This is the second Star Wars book I've read in a long, long time (I stopped when Jedi Academy first came out - yes, I am that old). I picked up this and Traitor by recommendation of Liliedhe ? initially, I only intended to read Traitor for some ideas for a game I am running (I basically stole the Vong). She heartily recommended Shatterpoint and I thought, hey, why not?

I admit, Sometimes, I felt a bit left out. I don?t recognize equipment by name and have to guess what, for example, a Merr-Son Power 5 is (or look it up on wookieepedia ? usually, one can guess, though), I sometimes have trouble with the myriad species this universe offers (again, gotta wookiee it), and I probably missed a lot of hints to events covered in other books or the movies. Probably because I don't own any SW related gaming sourcebooks. Anyway, it is descriptive enough to understand the gist of the items, so it is just fair game in a shared universe that has been going for 30 years now.

However, something else really caught my eye. This book is an interpretation of Heart of Darkness by Joseph Conrad, famously adapted by Francis Ford Coppola as Apocalypse Now. Or maybe it is an adaptation of Apolcalyse Now ? the liberal use of napalm and the idea of an officer sent to deal with a rogue commander whose rebel army does unspeakable things is obvious, too. Either way, this is something I really didn?t expect when I picked it up. And I liked it, because I both like Heart of Darkness, and because it just came unexpected.

This, of course, explains the very dark setting (I didn't mind that - I like dark settings) of the book. Stover takes Heart of Darkness' Idea of colonized Leopoldian Congo and exports it into the GFFA very elegantly, setting it up on an eerie world where hell truely just lurks below the surface (including sulfuric gasses!); Conrad's idea of the idea of civilisation versus madness and feral evil is very nicely embodied by the Jedi Mace Windu versus feral nature and darkness, embodied by Kar Vastor (a Darksider, and not even a Sith! Yay for originality). The interpretation is, of course, not too close ? naturally, given it is transported not only into space opera but also a pre-existing and very detailed world. Still, the vibe of the novella remains. Civilisation ends here, and all it?s shackles, rules, and sanity vanish. Not only on the outside, but also within the main protagonist. Also, the villain, like Kurtz in Heart of Darkness, isn?t just evil. Kar Vastor isn?t portrayed as evil, but as feral, diametrically opposed to the stringently controlled paladin knight of Mace Windu, who went to great lengths to strip himself of all instinct and feral nature. This conflict ? the core conflict of both Shatterpoint and Heart of Darkness ? is very well written and relatable.

I liked the setting a lot. Like Liliedhe, I intend to steal it - ad

 

It's been a long time since I have posted on one of you threads, so I apologize for that Becca. It's also funny that you ask if you are crazy for thinking that the setting was not just one of the most interesting aspects to this story, but it was also one of the most important. When I saw the thread title I thought, awesome, I really hope she and the rest of the posters want to discuss the setting. Of course, you didn't disappoint.

I think that a story's setting is often over looked by readers, myself included. We tend to pay closer attention to things like characterization, tone, dialogue, and pacing. Honestly, it wasn't until I took a creative writing class in college that started paying closer attention. Shatterpoint's setting was special to me because I felt that it wasn't just brilliantly shown to the reader, but it's importance was shown without an over the top, blatant explanation. It was the perfect setting to demonstrate the the dichotomy between nature and civilization. Your reference to the myth of the noble savage is very appropriate in this regard. It is closely related to the naturalistic fallacy, the idea that natural=good. The noble savage may not break rules of civilization, but that is only because they do not share the same rules. Heck, rules may not even exist.

Civilization is not natural, it is an imposed order on natural existence. The setting vividly described this. For example, we have the surgical fields around Pelak Baw (sorry, spelling may be off since I haven't read this for at least 7 months). It is a barrier separating the city from the jungle. Everyday tools and equiptment of advanced technology cannot function outside of the fields. The jungle destroys them, and interestingly, it is only the resin from a tree in the jungle that can allow tools of warfare to function. Tree resin coupled with the intent to injure each other enables the battle in the jungle, two natural things. The Korunnai also create a barrier between themselves and the jungle, though they utilize grassers and akk dogs.

It is not even as if this war is a battle between the forces of civilization and savages. It is a battle between two different civilizations, a foreign industrial society pitted against a native pastoral society. Much of the combat is guerilla warfare set in the jungle, where neither side behaves civilized. There is enough guilt to go around both sides twice over. This is a battle that would happen, and was happening before a larger galactic civil war helped to fan the flames.

It seems as if both sides use the harsh jungle as an excuse to abandon civility. It's almost a "when in Rome" or a "what happens in Vegas" attitude about it, which becomes amplified each time an atrocity occurs. The fact that a dead body was mutilated in order to send a message shows the reader just how far everyone has fallen. Sure, it was a practical and perhaps the only way that that message makes it back, its that willingness to mutilate a body in order to essientially phone home which demonstrates the uncivilized "nature" of this conflict. Despite the fact that Rostu cautions against personifying the jungle, they all do if only to lay blame on it. The jungle is harsh and unforgiving, Stover shows us that with the poisonous gases, predators, parasites, and volcanic eruptions. But it is not just the jungle that is harsh and unforgiving, both sides have become so as well, by their own choices. They have willingly abandoned civilization. They have returned to the jungle.

I'll be back with some more later, stupid work is bothering me. For what it's worth, I'm liking this discussion, keep it up guys.

 

I think there's still a fundamental difference between Luke and the Jedi of Old, as embodied in their best of Mace Windu. Fundamentally, Luke is much more of the Exile and Revan quality in that his natural reaction to evil is to go face it no matter what the problem is. The thought of Dark Side corruption doesn't terrify him in the same way that it does other people because he's interested in understanding the Dark Side in Dark Empire more than he actually is interested in its power or avoiding being tainted. The Emperor's mammoth mind trick powers almost consume him along with despair but it never destroys him as it would other Jedi.

Luke is able to sympathize in ways that Mace cannot for Kar Vastor.

I think that's incorrect given that Luke has successfully defeated the Emperor, Shimmra, and so many other threats that the Jedi Knights could never face in the olden days. Of all the adjectives to describe as well, careless is never one of them.

I already adapted the adventure but I didn't use Halruun Kal for the location because my Players have Wookieepedia and would immediately look it up (I game online). Instead, I transported it to Kashkyyyk and more or less transformed the conflict between the Settlers and the Natives to a conflict between Imperial settlers and the Wookiees. The Kar Vastor character was a Wookiee shaman.

It was one of our more memorable sessions as the players had a very Mace Windu like freak out.

A couple of interesting questions that I'd love to have the comments of people involved in are:

1:] What do you think genuinely drove Depa insane more than anything else?

2:] Do you think that Juyo/Vapaad is actually a valid Jedi discipline or something most can't really handle?

3:] What is your favorite moment from the novel?

 

Ends justify the means. The will and necessity to win, and use the means available and established on Haruun-Kal. She fell into the trap that she had to go through the darkness to achieve a result, to win. And she was lost there and never came out.

I think it is a not really clever idea invented to make Mace sound cooler. And to get an excuse to make Jedi fall without spending an effort on characterization. Something which Stover did not, of course.

The End. "I seem to be the last one standing." When Geptun's despair snaps Mace out of succumbing to the dark side, because he realizes he is not alone.

 

Something that probably no one else will comment on, but I love Stover's clone troopers. Klick, Commander Seven-One and Captain Four-Nine (that's CRC-09/571 and CC-8/349 to you highbrow clone lovers ), not to mention Seven-Four from Equipment are some of the best soldier characters I've read in Star Wars.

Hmmm...if Shatterpoint is Apocalypse Now, does that make Seven-One Lt Col Kilgore?

 

I have to disagree. A Jedi Knight is no Space Marine, and their Heretic Kill Count means nothing in evaluating how close they are to perfection. In Jedi ideals, both OT and PT, being a borderline darksider is far from it.

The Dark Side is very strong in the Skywalker line. Whether they slay everyone worse than them or not.

Also, Luke didn't defeat the Emperor. Anakin did. Luke was about to be slain instead (or turned the other cheek, depending on how you look at it).

What she did to do her duty. And the way she did it. What War really means. Leaving behind civilisation. Oddly enough, this makes her Kurtz, not Kar Vastor.

She accepts the Darkness, and the Darkness eats her, like Kurtz in Conrads novel, who proceeds with his pointless mission. Her disease just isn't physical, it is of the soul.

I think it is a special Jedi discipline, one not every jedi can handle. I liked it, actually. Also that it means walking a very fine line between light and dark - making it exclusive for a few select jedi (and off-limits for every Skywalker).

It is hard to say really. There are so many. Maybe the scene where Mace faces down Geptun's thugs in the shower. That shows how a Jedi can adhere both to the OJO philosophy and open serious cans of asskick on anyone whom he doesn't approve of. Or maybe the entire encounter in the massacred outpost, the futility of trying to save the children, and the impeding doom for the survivors. Maybe the final encounter with Kar Vastor. Maybe Mace realising that he might win this battle, but the Jedi will lsoe the war. Liliedhe told me she loved the bittersweet atmosphere in the PT. I didn't. I did there.

 

Charlemagne asked:

1:] What do you think genuinely drove Depa insane more than anything else?

2:] Do you think that Juyo/Vapaad is actually a valid Jedi discipline or something most can't really handle?

3:] What is your favorite moment from the novel?


1) I think she lost herself in her own despair. The situation was incredibly dark. It's not so much that up was down, but that there was no up or down. There was just the brutality of existence. Everything she grew up believing disappeared. Preconcieved notions of good and evil were replaced by brutal necessities and brutal excesses, and the line between the two increasingly became blurred. War demands you to do things that you were raised to never do. War may be natural, but it runs against counter to social norms. You wouldn't worry about pulling out your cell phone on the street in your town, but you would in 2005 Iraq. It would get you violently arrested or shot. I can imagine that a Jedi would feel completely adrift, without their anchor in situations like Harun Kal. Couple that with the fact that no matter what choice you made lives ended, and I can understand why Depa lost her way.

2) Vaapad is dangerous, but for the reasons I stated above it isn't why Depa fell. Very few Jedi were ready for these kinds of conflict. Most died, some fell.

3) I really enjoyed Mace's journey to find Depa. That journey exposed us not only to the situation, but through the journal entries throughout, Mace's reaction to the situation. I liked getting inside his head either through his journal or his stubborness to allow the environment to dictate what he would do. His rejection of the situation and determination to change it was incredibly heroic.

 

A Jedi Knights primary purpose is to defend the innocent and protect the weak. Those Jedi who believe otherwise have misconstrued their purpose. All the enlightenment in the world means nothing if it comes at the expense of others in the galaxy.

They're the family of the Chosen One, destined to bring balance to the Force.

The Light is also equally strong as the Dark. Leia and Luke are amongst the two greatest Jedi in the order's entire history.

I'm referring to Dark Empire.

Actually, her duty clearly means nothing to her at the end of the road. Mace Windu has removed her from command and suspended her from the Jedi Knighthood. Likewise, the Republic is something that she no longer has any connection to and certainly can't return to. Her area of expertise begins and ends at Haruun Kal.

Also, she's dead wrong about what war really means as well. Because Mathew Stover does a nice job of illustrating that those people who embrace total victory through terror don't necessarily ever WIN. The situation on Haruun Kal degenerated to as bad as it is because the Seperatists became hardened in their resolve against the Korun people. That resulted in THEM becoming sick and living in death like conditions.

And, of course, Depa's response is to apply more terror. Which only defeats any possible military objective she might achieve.

I think that's bizarre because it might help Luke get over his problem of being too passive.

 

Awesome; I envy your introduction to EU literature. My introduction was the Zahn trilogy but I consider Traitor to be one of my favourite books ever and it's a source of reasonable frustration to me that it's so hard to share with others, being, as it is, in the middle of such a long series. So you're more fortunate there.

This is a very interesting point and one I think I would agree with were I taking the book on its own merits in its own story. But when we look at the wider EU, the Jedi do lose, and spectacularly so.

Not quite in the way Depa predicts; they don't all become dark and evil. But their inability to realise who Palpatine was, to think in a way that would allow them to consider the kinds of actions people would be capable of taking against them, of being suspicious of certain groups, and indeed, the way the dark side clouded the Force itself, all contributed to the results of Order 66.

Mace was right - the Jedi didn't not have to lose and go dark. They can continue to be themselves - to be Jedi - throughout the war. But I do not believe that was Depa's point.

Her point was simply, either we have to stop being Jedi, or the Jedi (not the Republic) will lose the war. Mace chose, the Jedi chose, they stayed true to themselves (with certain exceptions who did lose themselves the way Depa did). The Republic won the war. The Jedi lost.

Had they stopped being Jedi and become something darker, more warlike, perhaps they would have seen Order 66 coming. But then they would no longer have been Jedi. They still lost.

I like this; it's a very succint way of showing the different. The one thing I wasn't so sure I liked though, was some of Mace's earlier slides toward the dark. I mean, it's a minor complaint about a novel that was, in general, entirely excellent, but I did find myself wondering what, specifically, was triggering his greater-than-usual guilty-pleasure in fighting during some of his earlier fights where we hear him musing to himself that he is treading the line very closely? Just generally being in a tough situation in the jungle with bad choices and no good guys is a reasonable enough cause I suppose. But somehow for the great Mace Windu to be swayed, I kind of wanted more than that?

I mean, the later stuff, after he's been betrayed again and again, and also his fear for Depa and confusion over her behaviour, that's great. But just, some of the earlier stuff, I wasn't entirely clear on.

YES! While I thought all the original characters were enjoyable, I think Geptun was my favourite simply because he was so...interesting? And also smart. It really was fun to see Mace Windu just bluntly admit he'd been outsmarted. It had a Lex Luthor vs Superman kind of feel to it, except Geptun is different to Luthor in that Stover manages to make him both horrifyingly pragmatic and self-serving but also...someone who, at the end, you can still empathise with? Either way, I thought he was great.

 

I hate the limited amount of quotes available, it's why I choose to edit them and use "Bold" or Italicized when I can no longer directly quote. That or C&P the part where it cuts off into a second post where it won't be a problem.

It's the biggest issue with long analysis threads like this because the "stopped quotes" are just ugly as sin.

 

beccatoriaThere are some passing references to some events in one comic arc that I haven't actually even read and there's a wonderful easter-egg for EU fans when Mace talks of the Jungle eventually taking over even Coruscant

Yes. Actually, I even got that. ^_^ Traitor's the other novel I read.

beccatoria But something about the warmth and the trust and the good feelings Mace has about Palpatine leave me...

Unsettled.

Yes, it was extremly chilling, but I couldn't help admire Palpatine there, mocking the Jedi and they know soemthing is wrong but are utterly helpless. It probably was the most evil thing apart from the end of ROTS we see him doing. And that made me respect him as a villain more than ever before.

beccatoria However, Chalk is described as light-skinned with red hair.

I took that as a nod to Malcom X, who also was red-haired and fair-skinned (comparatively, as 'black' actually goes from darker caucasian to, well, black).

charlemagne19 A Jedi Knights primary purpose is to defend the innocent and protect the weak.

According to Zahn, yes. According to Lucas, they are peacekeepers, which is anything but the same. Jedi as Lucas defined them are not Supers who save damsels in distress and such, Jedi are UN Blue Helmets as they were meant to be. This is down to interpretation and what is canon, so maybe let's just agree to disagree here?

charlemagne They're the family of the Chosen One, destined to bring balance to the Force.

Yes, and they went downhill FAST after this. See Jacen, or Cade. And the chosen One was defective at best, not nescesarily the Messiah. Or would you consider Anakin a perfect Jedi?

charlemagne Leia and Luke are amongst the two greatest Jedi in the order's entire history.

Again, you mistake Greatness and Perfection. Many men were Great. None were perfect. Very few came even close.

charlemage I'm referring to Dark Empire.

'The Emperor' usually refers to Palpatine. However, Han also killed a Palpatine clone.

charlemagne Actually, her duty clearly means nothing to her at the end of the road.

Yes, that is where she falls.

charlemagne Also, she's dead wrong about what war really means as well. Because Mathew Stover does a nice job of illustrating that those people who embrace total victory through terror don't necessarily ever WIN. The situation on Haruun Kal degenerated to as bad as it is because the Seperatists became hardened in their resolve against the Korun people. That resulted in THEM becoming sick and living in death like conditions.

She is? Then what does war really mean?

charlemagne I think that's bizarre because it might help Luke get over his problem of being too passive.

He first needs to deal with his massive issues with attachment, really.

Edit: Charlemagne is right. It looks much better this way.

 

Thank you.^^ Of course, it also led to my perspective on the EU being extremely lopsided. Very often, when I read books that are supposed to be great - like the TTT - I'm just disappointed. Well, being a fan of the PT foremost makes me a minority anyway.

I doubt they'd have seen Order 66, whatever they became. And I really don't agree. Depa's point wasn't that the Jedi will die, she could not foresee this. Her point was that by the time the war is over, the Jedi will be "Jedi of the future" that are Jedi only in name. And she was wrong there.

Also, "there is no death. There is the Force." Dying isn't the worst that can happen to the Jedi. Falling is.

Oh, I think his brushes with darkness are simply that he isn't used to the environment fighting him so much. In a sense, Jedi are 'plucked' into the 'aura' of a place and it starts to work on him, subtly first, and he just doesn't realize at first, only when it gets strong enough.

Thanks . Pity players are so easily intimidated by such situations - mine pretty much turned tail and ran, when faced with an environment that hated them.

 

Liliedhe Pity players are so easily intimidated by such situations - mine pretty much turned tail and ran, when faced with an environment that hated them.

Hey! I would have stayed! But what can one little fish way out of it's pond do?

Very curious how my two players will deal with my rendition though.

Liliedhe Dying isn't the worst that can happen to the Jedi. Falling is.

Worse than seeing your philosophy is totally warped, your few remannts and the new order founded with your name on it turn darkside, and Cade? Really? REALLY?

 

That's the real irony. If they embraced "War with No Limits" then they would have become Sith and either allied with Palpatine like Count Dooku or become effectively indistinguishable from the Sith. More likely, Palpatine would have just been able to smash them utterly. Only by keeping to their principles did they inspire the Rebel Alliance.

"May the Force be with you."

Their principles surviving enough in Luke Skywalker to have him defeat Darth Vader through the power of love.

It's interesting to speculate that Mace Windu has always been essentially an Anakin Skywalker figure. He's a smoldering cauldron of emotion, rage, and passions underneath his calm exterior. Exactly the least kind of person you'd expect would be able to make Jedi Master. However, through the study of Juyo, he was able to calm and tame those passions by channeling them to useful ends.

In a bizarre way, it suddenly explains Mace's antipathy to Anakin Skywalker. He, more than anybody, understands what Anakin is going through but whereas he conquered his passions at an early age---Anakin gives into them repeatedly.

My favorite line from the book is Mace's belief that a man as smart as Geptun would be in the Senate if he was as genuinely corrupt as he seemed to be. That highlighted just how far the Jedi Knights really believed the galaxy had fallen.

I was mostly meaning in the fact that Superman has accepted that there is never going to be victory in the war against crime. Mace's personality is more like Batman more than anything else. Depa, on the other hand, is totally caught off guard by the appalling evil and corruption she encounters on Haruun Kal. You have to assume, I think, that she comes from a Jedi diplomacy line that civilization is imperiled by evil doers who are abberant.

She's never been in the Bosnia situation of say, Melida/Daan like Obi Wan Kenobi was as a boy or a crisis like this one. She probably mostly handled things like trade disputes where both parties were still fundamentally civilized or one had the clear moral imperiative.

 

Counterpoint, its important to remember the Prequel Jedi are not what JEDI SHOULD NECESSARILY *BE*. They're at their height but George Lucas isn't advocating the Jedi should go back to no attachments, a temple on Coruscant, or being a Keeper of the peace. Luke is the ideal Jedi Knight, the Galahad figure, and he's a man trained as an adult who will train a woman who loves a man and will undoubtedly marry him (Leia).

Lucas is fairly clear the Prequel Jedi are pretty flawed but still heroic figures. Like Arthur's knights.

Anakin redeemed himself and the galaxy at the end. He was also a great hero of the Clone Wars.

As reasonably what all Jedi should aspire to be as possible, then.

Palpatine=Spirit of Palpatine. If Palpatine had possessed Anakin Solo as a baby, I'd call him palpatine not Anakin.

"Aggressive Negotiations" is a joke line, but that's exactly what it is. Depa believed that War was about destroying the enemy and his will to fight. This is not totally the case. Wedge Antilles pointed out to the Corellians that you need to enter into war with a specific goal. That's what destroyed World War 1, no one was actually fighting to a specific "win condition." The same for, ironically enough, Vietnam.

Mace Windu resolved the Summertime War by dictating the Win Conditions both sides did not realize they had.

 

I do not want to intrude on your argument, but I disagree. I DO think the prequel Jedi are what the Jedi are supposed to be. Not every person among them, of course. They make mistakes, all of them. Because 'humans' do. But the Order as a whole. Going from the DVD commentary about the movies and the additional material on the DVDs I can't see Lucas considering them flawed or failed. Lucas very much stands behind the "no attachment" rule for example. Basically, we can't know what he would have done after ROTJ. He is on record with saying Luke would never have married in his book.

Luke successfully completed his Trials in ROTJ, but he is not the ideal Jedi Knight. He is a Jedi knight, the last one, and he has done a great thing. But he is NOT flawless - and if he was it would be beside the point. He isn't an ideal anything, he is a continuation of a tradition that goes back a thousand generations into the past.

 

charlemagne19: They're at their height but George Lucas isn't advocating the Jedi should go back to no attachments, a temple on Coruscant, or being a Keeper of the peace.

Actually, as Liliedhe says, he is advocating it. He says they still have sex, but unattached sex. The kind you have with, say, prostitutes, or random people you pick up in a night club. But that does not say attachment isn't something he's fully behind. He is. Because atachment is not about sex at all.

charlemagne19: Palpatine=Spirit of Palpatine. If Palpatine had possessed Anakin Solo as a baby, I'd call him palpatine not Anakin.

Of course, that doesn't seem to be the common denomination. At least, not that I'd have been aware of it.

charlemagne19: Anakin redeemed himself and the galaxy at the end. He was also a great hero of the Clone Wars.

And he was a mass murderer, traitor, spawn of evil and bane of the galaxy for a quarter of a century.

Also, he didn't redeem himself. His son redeemed him. It is the very CORE of the story Lucas is telling. He said so himself. Repeatedly, among others on the ROTS bonus DVD. Anakin, on his own, would have remained fallen.

charlemagne19: Luke is the ideal Jedi Knight, the Galahad figure

No. Though he overcomes his flaws (at least if Lucas has his way, the EU isn't kind to Luke), he has them. Very much. Just think of the first Dagobah leave of his - his training far from completed, he runs aand goes try and save his sister, and promptly loses a hand, is deeply traumatised and almost ends up being crushed in a gas giant. This is also why attachment really is kinda bad.

My point is still, Luke is more flawed than usual, and, taking the EU into account, remains so, and so does his and his sister's offspring. His metamorphosis from wimpy, emotional and gullible person to in-control jedi knight between ESB and ROTJ has always mystified me, and I have been assured it isn't quite explained in the EU either. Apart from that, we have a man who iss only a tiny bit better than his father - the tiny bit that makes the difference in the end. Still, he is flawed, a lot, much like his father and virtuually all Skywalkers in the EU save for Anakin 2nd and maybe Ben. Especially Cade.



charlemagne19: "Aggressive Negotiations" is a joke line, but that's exactly what it is. Depa believed that War was about destroying the enemy and his will to fight. This is not totally the case. Wedge Antilles pointed out to the Corellians that you need to enter into war with a specific goal. That's what destroyed World War 1, no one was actually fighting to a specific "win condition." The same for, ironically enough, Vietnam.

Uhm. Vietnam was entered for a specific objective (which actually was completed, but more by chance). Having a precise goal and ideal to fight for goal didn't help the US' second Iraq, either the US' or the USSR's Afghanistan, nor Nazi Germany.

This is, sorry, a bit naive on your part. War never is as predictable as sandbox games might make it seem like. And war certainly is not just the continuation of diplomacy by different means, unless you happen to be the CIC, maybe.

 

To disagree with you;

Mace Windu: I do not believe the Sith could have returned without our knowledge.

***

Obi Wan: Do not defy the Council, not again.

Qui Gon Jinn: I will do what I must, Obi Wan.

***

Obi-Wan: But he still has much to learn, Master. His abilities have made him... well arrogant.

Yoda: Yes. Yes. A flaw more and more common among Jedi. Too sure of themselves they are. Even the older, more experienced ones.

***

Yoda: Truly wonderful, the mind of a child is.

***

Plus George Lucas line edited the Revenge of the Sith novelization, making it as close to canon as humanly possible. That book is littered with the flaws of the Jedi Knighthood as well. Qui Gon Jinn is held up as the ultimate Jedi Knight and he is constantly at odds with the Jedi order. Furthermore, he explains that love is actually not opposed to attachment in the sense that most people believe it does.

The Jedi's INTERPRETATION of no attachment was hopelessly flawed.

IMHO, I believe this to be wrong, but this is about Shatterpoint.

It was his Choice to be redeemed. His son didn't make him throw Palpatine down a reactor shaft.

No offense, but there's Emoticon for me to express my utterly "What the heck are you talking about" reaction. It's called the SIEGE PERILOUS. The Siege Perilous is a seat that cannot be sat on without DYING. That seat can only be sat upon by the perfect Knight. Galahad is the man who can sit on the Siege Perilous.

Galahad was literally created to be the better knight than Lancelot. Even in Medieval times, his birth would not be held against him.

Luke Skywalker's transformation to a confident Jedi Knight comes from his acceptance of Yoda's teachings and learning to control his anger. As for being a tiny bit be