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  1. In Memory of LAJ_FETT: Please share your remembrances and condolences HERE

The 181st Imperial Discussion Group: Agents of Chaos: Jedi Eclipse

Discussion in 'Literature' started by beccatoria, Sep 1, 2009.

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  1. beccatoria

    beccatoria Jedi Grand Master star 4

    Registered:
    Dec 8, 2006
    Hello! And welcome to this month's discussion!

    Here's a link to the TF.n Staff Review.

    Per usual, I'll kick us off with some discussion points and jump in along the way.

    - So, this novel is a little less tight in its focus on Han and his adventures with Droma, but they still provide the focus of the tale. Given his state of mind in the previous book, what did you make of Han's continuing journey? Has he reconciled with his family? Were you sad to see Droma go?

    - This novel also features a matter of some debate - Thracken's inartful use of Centerpoint destroying the Yuuzhan Vong and also half the Hapan Fleet. Do you believe Anakin could have successfully aimed the weapon? Was Jacen right in his arguments? Was Anakin right to listen?

    - Wurth Skidder. Through his storyline we see yet more of the Vong culture and begin to learn about Yammosks, I think for the first time? In some ways, Wurth reminds me of Ganner. What did you think of his storyline here? Did he get a heroic death, or was he simply arrogant and overconfident?

    - As a duology, what did you make of Agents of Chaos and its contribution to the overall NJO story arc?

    Go for it! :D

    Next month we will be discussing Rogue Planet by Greg Bear.
     
  2. Jeff_Ferguson

    Jeff_Ferguson Force Ghost star 5

    Registered:
    May 15, 2006
    I have as much to say about this book as I did about Hero?s Trial. When I read the first six books of The New Jedi Order back in the summer of 2004, it was this duology that stood out from the rest for me. However, I?m guessing that not a lot of you have very much to say, what with last month?s discussion on book one getting an entire twelve posts. [face_blush] It?s kind of odd, though --- all twelve posts seemed to agree that Hero?s Trial was skillfully written, that Luceno nailed the character of Han like no author since Brian Daley, and that it was generally a good book. So why does it fly so low under so many EU fans? radar? Why is it so easy to forget about this duology, even if you acknowledge its quality?

    So! I pray thee, come into this thread and discuss this book, even if you didn?t join in the fun last month. And I?ll tell you why --- Hero?s Trial is primarily a book about Han, and as a result, Han was the focus of all of last month?s discussion. While much of Jedi Eclipse is about Han & Droma, it has a number of subplots that actually get an equal amount of focus, as Becca pointed out. There?s quite a bit of fodder for discussion in book two, and I invite you all to jump on it!

    Jedi Eclipse is composed of these main plotlines:

    Han & Droma. Han & Droma travel around in an effort to locate Droma?s missing clanmates, and the two share a wonderfully written relationship that is at times antagonistic, but ultimately mutually beneficial. Droma challenges Han to take a look at what he?s really doing by running away from his family and taking to the stars in classic Han fashion, and also shows his skills as an able co-pilot of the Falcon.

    Wurth Skidder taking on a Yammosk. Roa & Fasgo are back and joining in on Wurth?s fun, in a plot that is one of several showcasing the emphasis on Jedi characters this book has that its predecessor was sorely lacking. Droma?s sister Sapha is also in on the action.

    The search for Wurth Skidder: The second plot to feature Jedi prominently sees Kyp Durron and Ganner Rhysode searching out the Yammosk ship where their friend is imprisoned, along with the help of Talon kriffing Karrde. This is Karrde?s first appearance in these nineteen books, and Luceno does a really good job of using him naturally and fitting him into a plotline --- rather than shoehorning him in for a random cameo, that is.

    Leia?s trip to Hapes. It?s our first time seeing the Hapans since 1994. After all of the great discussion on their culture right here in the 181st two months ago, why not come into this thread and discuss them again! :)[face_peace]

    The Yuuzhan Vong and the Hutts. There is also a plotline involving the Yuuzhan Vong and Hutt Space. ... It is actually quite good.

    Droma?s clanmates: Follow their wacky adventures as they run from planet to planet!

    Jacen and Anakin head to Centerpoint Station. A plot made all the more interesting based on recent developments in the EU, hmmmmm? Centerpoint, hmmmmmmm?

    Viqi Shesh in the Senate: This b*tch is up to no good.

    So, yeah. There is quite a bit going on in this book, and Luceno balances the multiple plotlines out with Timothy Zahnesque skill. Rather than show my entire hand on the first day of the month, as I did with Hero?s Trial, I think I?ll leave you with that, and then slowly share a gargantuan list of my impressions of this book over the next week. For now, I?ll say some general things...

    Luceno does a fantastic job continuing the momentum of Han?s sojourn, while bringing back some of the Jedicentric momentum that we got in both books of Dark Tide. Wurth Skidder takes center stage, with Kyp and Ganner following close behind (and when you?re hanging with Talon Karrde, you know you?re in for some badassery). The Yuuzhan Vong characters that he focuses on are as well-written as they were in Hero?s Trial, and it?s a real treat reading their interactions with the Hutts. He manages to make the character of
     
  3. JediAlly

    JediAlly Jedi Grand Master star 4

    Registered:
    Oct 31, 2000
    Once again, Luceno did a good job in bringing in a motley variety of characters and references into a story - Hapans, references to Bollux and Blue Max, Centerpoint and the Corellian Trilogy.


    So, this novel is a little less tight in its focus on Han and his adventures with Droma, but they still provide the focus of the tale. Given his state of mind in the previous book, what did you make of Han's continuing journey? Has he reconciled with his family? Were you sad to see Droma go?

    I see this novel as a continuation of getting his game back on. As for Han's reconciliation and Droma's departure, those don't happen until the next novel.


    This novel also features a matter of some debate - Thracken's inartful use of Centerpoint destroying the Yuuzhan Vong and also half the Hapan Fleet. Do you believe Anakin could have successfully aimed the weapon? Was Jacen right in his arguments? Was Anakin right to listen?

    The fact that they considered using Centerpoint, and how Thrackan rushed in and fired it, showed how desperate the New Republic was becoming. Anakin was already attuned to the weapon, so I do believe he could have successfully aimed and fired the weapon. As for Jacen and Anakin's debate about firing it, I can't really offer a firm yes or no. On the one hand, I recall Daeshara'cor's search for another Death Star or Eye of Palpatine in Ruin. Both were used as weapons of terror and mass destruction, and so was Centerpoint Station. But in light of the novels that have been written since, one could justify their existence as Palpatine's means of countering the Yuuzhan Vong's worldships and that command ship in Ruin that was as large as an SSD, but far more massive. I'm pretty certain the superlaser would have destroyed those ships in one shot, or at the absolute least tire out the dovin basals to the point that they would die from exhaustion. If they were considering using this weapon during Star by Star, when the Vong were invading Coruscant, I'm certain Anakin would have fired then, because it was a final gambit to stop the Vong and save the NR.

    The entire debate reminds me of the debate Cade had with the Jedi Council in the Legacy comics about going after Darth Krayt and helping the Mon Cals, who were targeted for extermination. After he left, I recall his uncle more or less saying something along the lines of this, "We can debate about Cade's plan to assassinate Darth Krayt and whether or not he's going dark. But I know one thing for certain - to turn a deaf ear to the Mon Cals' cries for help is wrong." It's the same argument Revan and Malak made to the Jedi Council about engaging the Mandalorians. Zayne would probably have made the argument those two did because he's seen the results of the Mandalorians conquests on Taris.

    So I don't know. What's beyond debate is that something needed to be done and to turn a blind eye and deaf ear to what the Vong were doing was wrong. That is something Jacen should have adhered to from the get-go. From there, it comes down to determining what needs to be done, how to go about it, how far you're willing to go, and whether or not you're willing to live with the consequences. From my perspective at the time, I think the war would probably have continued until the last Yuuzhan Vong breathed his last breath. Would the galaxy and the general populace regret that - I don't think so. Would the Jedi regret that occurrence - perhaps. But they should remember that the Vong started this, and the NR tried on more than one occasion to reach an accord with the Vong. The Vong either ignored it or used it to their advantage to get prepared for the next stage. They didn't believe in peace or living as equals, and they more or less personified "No retreat, no surrender, fight to the last man." For this war to end by any other means, it needed to be the Vong to lay down their arms and say, "Enough, that's it. We're finished."

    I do, however recall Anakin asking Jacen that if he were to ever find the "line" that he would
     
  4. Jeff_Ferguson

    Jeff_Ferguson Force Ghost star 5

    Registered:
    May 15, 2006
    [face_peace]
    That's not a bad idea. A bunch of months down the line, maybe a month could be dedicated to the novellas/short stories of the NJO? In the same style that you did three YJK books a month, Becca, maybe it could be like... one week for Recovery, one week for Emissary, one week for Ylesia, and one week for The Apprentice & Or Die Trying. That's a suggestion for quiiiiiiite a few months down the line, as I think we should get through a bunch of the NJO first, and there are quite a few books we have in queue right now before we get to more NJO. [face_peace]

    ~~~~~~~~~

    I'm going to respond to your post, JediAlly, in detail --- just give me a bitta time. :) I really appreciate all of the great discussion you've brought to this month's and last month's threads! You truly are my ally. For now, though, I want to share the first two paragraphs of this book with everyone, as they are a stunning example of why I love Luceno's turn-of-the-century prose so much --- you know, the awesome style of writing he used to employ, but jettisoned in favour of a lightning-fast-no-time-for-description style that succeeded brilliantly for Labyrinth of Evil, failed miserably for Dark Lord, and was... acceptable for Millennium Falcon.

    Dear Luceno... please, start writing books like this again. God how I miss this.

    Chapter two features very good narrative from Leia's part concerning how she feels about Han at that time. She hasn't slept soundly since he left Coruscant a month earlier, and is heartbroken that he hasn't contacted her once in that month. There's also a touching bit where Droma's family calls her Princess Leia, and after being corrected, they tell her, "To the Ryn, you will forever remain a princess." It's all the more touching because Leia suspects it might be sweet irony, based on her having had to leave two of their clanmates behind on Gyndine.

    Well, here's a bit of insight into
     
  5. JediAlly

    JediAlly Jedi Grand Master star 4

    Registered:
    Oct 31, 2000
    Jeff_Ferguson, glad to see you appreciated my comments for the past two months.

    I know that Wurth was in Kyp's camp, and I remember now he allowed himself to get captured in order to gather intel. But isn't a key point of this kind of mission is to get the info back to headquarters? Implicit in that is some sort of escape plan or something along that line. I don't think he had one, and if he did, I must have missed it. But if he didn't have one, that would suggest some poor planning. Now granted, desperate times calls for desperate measures, and both Centerpoint and later Alpha Red could be seen as desperate measures. However, desperate measures often implies rushed planning, and that could imply poor planning. This isn't the only instance where this happened, but I'll post my comments when we get to the appropriate books.

    He also admitted that he wanted to show up Luke and his group - definitely the wrong motive to use.

    And as for his view of vengeance, I repeat what I said about deciding how far you're willing to go and whether or not you can come to terms with it. But at the same time, I recall Nawara Ven's statement in Rogue Squadron about justice and vengeance being two names for the same thing. Considering the Vong and the impact they had, the distinction between the two have practically been shattered, since new recruits probably joined the military to seek justice for all the crimes committed by the Vong by dishing out revenge or something along that line of thinking.

    I had forgotten about Talon Karrde's appearance in this book. Not only that, but I think Tahiri was mentioned as well.

    As for your plan about the e-books and stories, I think it would be more appropriate to time them with the stories they're associated with. For instance, The Apprentice and Ylesia are "forgotten" chapters from Dark Journey and Destiny's Way respectively. I can't see how one can discuss either of those books without considering the stories associated with them. Same goes with The Hive and The Cestus Deception. Emissary occurs simultaneously with Rebirth, but is totally separate from the story. So I think we should discuss the Edge of Victory duology first before discussing Emissary. Or Die Trying and Fool's Bargain are prequels of sorts to Refugee and Survivor's Quest respectively. I think A Practical Man takes place between Vector Prime and Onslaught. About the only e-book we can discuss right now is Darth Maul: Saboteur because it's not associated with any novels. The closest association is Darth Maul: Shadow Hunter, and we've already discussed it.
     
  6. beccatoria

    beccatoria Jedi Grand Master star 4

    Registered:
    Dec 8, 2006
    Jeff - first off thanks for your really detailed and interesting contributions to these discussions. I confess lower turnout last month was partially my fault as I didn't have the time to give the thread quite the attention it deserved due to some unfortunate real-life events, so you have my apologies for that.

    But you do bring up an intriguing question about the general lack of response to these novels and the way they fly under the radar despite being, in and of themselves, very good books. I think partly it's the fact that the 181st is specifically set up to discuss novels that get less attention; it's almost certainly not coincidental that the novels at the more popular or divisive end of the scale, or novels that tie into big issues are the threads that garner the most replies, and sometimes these threads do end up a little on the short side as a result.

    As to why these novels didn't pick up as much acclaim in the wider scheme of the NJO and were eligible for this thread in the first place? I hate to say it but I think it's that they just...don't have the flare or bigscale "wow" factor that some of the other novels have. In the movies Han is a very popular character, indeed arguably the most popular, but in the novels, Jedi and the Force and epic combat is king, much though we might wish otherwise. I have to confess I succumb to this a little myself; I often overlook very excellent episodes of TV, for instance, because it's a standalone instead of the next Big Arc episode.

    I mean, this is a relative argument because as you so ably show, in this novel especially, there ARE big events that occur. I wonder if this duology might have been better thought of if, for instance, the wider focus had been in the first novel and the tighter focus on Han in the second? As it is, people seem to remember it as "side adventures". I honestly wonder if people sometimes forget that big events like the Centerpoint confrontation between Jacen and Anakin occur in these books, just remembering them as generic NJO events? Which obviously is rather unfair to the rather excellent balance Mr Luceno has struck between plot, character, continuity, epic and personal storylines here. But you know...that's why I think it is?

    As to my opinions of the novels, again, yes, I think they're good, but also again, for all my appreciation of them I think that I am perhaps slightly the wrong audience as I enjoyed them but...they're not favourites. That said, I did enjoy this once more than the last. I really enjoyed seeing Wurth Skidder (even though I thought his plan kind of...sucked, I enjoyed him as a character). The Hapans have become a real staple in the EU but it's easy to forget (indeed before rereading I DID forget) that this is where they're reintroduced in terms of the modern era. And I did really like getting to see that at play.

    Similarly, I enjoyed the small touches about Leia - I'm glad you singled out the Princess issue with the Ryn, Jeff. I enjoyed the Ryn well enough but at the same time, they're just a rather ordinary turn on space gypsies which I found...uninspired is too harsh, but perhaps more could have been done with it? But I have to hand it to Luceno there - I may still whine about how I don't understand why Leia's no longer a Princess since the Alderaanian people still exist and have political representation - but the tone of that scene is perfect, complete with the not-quite-angry irony of the statement.

    I already mentioned that I enjoyed Skidder even though I found him, well, slightly dull. I sympathise with his logic in doing something, but still, it was a terrible plan and bravery doesn't automatically get you points. That said, I found Skidder's real resolve to help these people a real point of connection with the character and, as a sucker for the Vongstuff I enjoyed all his scenes with the Yammosk. Perhaps it's just that I love Traitor so much and this novel gives me Ganner and reminds me of Jacen and his relationship with the Worldbrain, but it felt like some terribly
     
  7. JediAlly

    JediAlly Jedi Grand Master star 4

    Registered:
    Oct 31, 2000
    I understand what you're saying about availability of the e-books and novellas. But I don't think it might be as bad as you might believe. First off, there are those who have them in their original formats. That is, those of us, like me, who have the issues of Gamer and Insider that had the stories. That once applied to me as well in terms of the e-books, but my Microsoft Reader went KO. So I had to go and buy the paperback versions of the hardcovers that had the e-books reprinted in the back. I did that before I learned they were still available as e-books, but in a different format. If I had known... But that's light-years behind me now. And there's the fact that the stories in the magazines have been reprinted on the official SW website, but you might need to subscribe to Hyperspace in order to read them. So they're available, as in they're not out of print or extremely hard to find like some of the children's books are. It's just a question of whether or not the readers can get to them.

    One thing is for certain - if we ever get around to discussing Dark Journey, Destiny's Way, or The Cestus Deception, I cannot see how we can discuss those stories without discussing the novellas or e-books associated with them. I mentioned the specific associations in a previous post.

    One last thing - we already talked about the first six books of the YJK. Any plans on going back to discuss the remaining eight books of the series.
     
  8. Jeff_Ferguson

    Jeff_Ferguson Force Ghost star 5

    Registered:
    May 15, 2006
    At the end of page 68, Luke and Talon Karrde are walking through the jungles of Yavin 4, smoking cigars, and talking about how badass Mara is. ... Well, the scene goes something like that, anyway. Anyway, here?s the mention of Tahiri you were thinking of:

    Not just a mention, but an appearance, baby! Little one-sentence cameos like that mean the world to us hardcore fans, and Luceno is the king of putting them in. Ya know, if it hadn?t been for Greg Keyes, this could possibly have been Tahiri?s only appearance in the entire series. [face_thinking]

    I think the most interesting part of Skidder?s reasoning is this line: There were times when darkness had to be fought with darkness. That?s actually a very important central theme running throughout this entire book. It?s the crux of the Centerpoint question, and serves to kick off the Talon Karrde plotline ---

    A few pages earlier, Karrde and Luke have this exchange about Wurth Skidder:

    ?Well, there?s nothing wrong with being motivated by vengeance if it gets you results.

    Luke?s expression said otherwise.

    ?Wrong??

    ?Let?s just say that we don?t see the world in precisely the same way.?


    What is probably Karrde?s most important function in the story is thus revealed. He?s here as one of the players presenting the viewpoint that it?s OK to fight fire with fire --- that the ends justify the means. It?s something that he and Skidder both feel, and is a viewpoint that Anakin is leaning towards. On the other end of the spectrum are Luke and Jacen. This deeper analysis reveals the skill Luceno employed in writing this book --- it?s far more than just unconnected subplots that deal with different fights against the Yuuzhan Vong. It?s a deep, multifaceted investigation of mo
     
  9. ChildOfWinds

    ChildOfWinds Chosen One star 6

    Registered:
    Apr 7, 2001
    I'm always amazed at Luceno's knowledge of the SW universe! He really seems to have read everything, and to know all the characters and events. Jeff, I completely agree with you about Luceno's beautiful prose. I know that most people want to get right to the lightsaber duels and the huge spaceship battles, but I appreciate detailed and gorgeous description and character moments.

    I also like that Luceno adds so many cameos to this and his other novels. What's more, they never seem to be tacked on. The characters truly have a purpose in being included. I was happy to read the cameos to know what everyone was doing and where they were too.

    I too was surprised by how little Han and Droma there actually was in this novel. I had remembered their roles as larger. I know that when I read this book the first time, I was disappointed because I had wanted Han and Leia to reconcile, and I was disappointed that this really didn't happen in this novel.

    Knowing what eventually happens with Jacen, it really struck me at how much of a pacifist Jacen was at this time. My, how much he changed!! If it hadn't been for Jacen's intervention, Anakin likely would have destroyed the Yuuzhan Vong fleet instead of most of the Hapan fleet. Leia was definitely right to be worried about the Hapans getting involved! :(

    As for Wurth Skidder, his loss seemed like such a waste. He simply seemed to go in without having the whole thing planned out well. Yes, he was brave, but he was too reckless too What good did it do to get information if he didn't have a way of getting out and getting that information to others? He didn't accomplish much and his loss seemed so senseless.

    This was a pretty good book, but I remember that as a part of the LONG NJO series, it left me sad and frustrated at the end. Everything just seemed to be going so wrong for our friends and their galaxy. It was rather depressing. Things rarely ended on a positive note, and as one who likes happy endings, it was disappointing that there was very little to cheer about with any of these NJO books.
     
  10. beccatoria

    beccatoria Jedi Grand Master star 4

    Registered:
    Dec 8, 2006
    Ally - I do agree that the ebooks, while still rarer than novels, are at least available across multiple formats so I don't think it would be un-doable. Just something to consider.

    Also I'm absolutely amenable to, and indeed would encourage, the use of ebooks in discussions of relevant novels. I mean, not everyone will have read them, but it would bring in some good new points for discussion and those not having read them might find the information interesting. Like raising points from the Truce at Bakura RPG sourcebook during the TAB discussion.

    I don't currently have any plans to discuss the last 8 YJK novels but I'm not dead set against it either - feel free to throw them into the suggestion pot over in the HQ thread?

    Jeff - I think one of the biggest pieces of irony concerning Anakin vs Jacen here is that Jacen believed himself to have the wider focus while Anakin was focusing too narrowly on results, when, as you aptly point out, the reverse was more likely true. Jacen had become blinded by absolutes while Anakin was focusing more on the subtleties of the scenario.

    I don't, however, agree with you that vengeance is an acceptable motivation if it gets results, nor do I think that Anakin was leaning in that direction? Even given his somewhat..."angsty lone hero" approach of thinking about fighting darkness with darkness, I wouldn't neceesarily categorise Wurth Skidder as thinking that way either? Though he's more along that scale than otherwise.

    I think I feel this way because while I might be persuaded to agree that anger can be agreat motivator, I think that vengeance is a class above anger. Afterall one can be angry because one wants justice as well as because one wants vengeance. Anger leaves room for many other beliefs and motivations. Being angry about something doesn't inherently require you to break a part of the Jedi Code (except that rather interpretational one about about "no emotion" which I never took a removal of emotion, just awareness and mastery), but feeling vengeful does. It requires you to relish the pain of another, not for justice, but as an end in and of itself, and that is very much contrary to the Jedi Code, even if not that of Talon Karrde.

    But I do agree that the points Luceno raises about how the Vong need to be stopped and how anger - which I suppose others with different interpretational approaches to mine might consider pretty much the same as vengeance - can be an appropriate or even necessary motivator to stop that, are interesting. I would argue, really, that anyone who had seen what the Vong did over those 8 months and didn't feel angry was lying to themselves.

    Finally, it is weird how we remember novels, isn't it? I have to admit that yes, Luceno's later style is more to my tastes, not, as CoW notes, because I like action over character moments (although I know that's an approach some take, and that's fine) but more simply in terms of aesthetic pleasure as I'm reading; I'm more of a minimalist. Which is not to say I like simplistic prose because, well, Drew Karpyshyn's prose isn't to my tastes either as I think he goes too far in the other direction. I suppose what I want is understated elegance? :p But, to stop being pretentious for a minute, and just to clarify, I've never had an issue with the focus or plot of Luceno's stories. And I do think that, while not quite to my tastes, he is a very talented writer.

    (Oh, and oops cus I forgot to mention it above *facepalm* I quite enjoyed the Isolder plotline. I take your point about it existing in order to stretch things out, but, what can I say? I like Isolder!)

    But this does make me wonder what other things I'm misremembering from favourite novels. I think the NJO is particularly susceptible to this because it's such a long multi-part story that the whole thing bleeds together and it's easier to reshuffle the events into different novels or forget the ongoing plots for the ones that are more specific to those novels and thus easier to identify?

    C
     
  11. Jedi Ben

    Jedi Ben Chosen One star 9

    Registered:
    Jul 19, 1999
    It's been a long time since I read this, about 8 years I think, hence my recall is hazy but a few bits and pieces:

    This was where I started to conclude the timeframe for the books mixed with the rotating spotlight was really hurting the series, as JE picks up 2 months after HT. 2 months!? That's loads of time - what happened in those two months? Though Luceno does what he can to give a wide picture, there's only so much he can do and his arc is focused on Han. (I should add NJO at this point wasn't helped by my also reading Peter Hamilton's Nght's Dawn trilogy that opts for having numerous plots running in parallel instead of rotating through characters.)

    The pointless debate over the use of Centerpoint: This infuriated me. You have an enemy invading, raping and pillaging worlds en masse, slaughtering and killing millions, if not billions, while sticking soul upon soul in sadomasochistic devices and you still have to consider whether it's permissible to kill a whole swath of them? Ye gods. Suffice to say, there's a time and a place for moral philosophy and this wasn't it.

    Jacen: Strangely enough, I don't mind Jacen's difficulty and aversion to violence. Having someone in a family of warriors who isn't actually that at ease with the violence that involves should have made for a brilliant and different character arc. That said though, you don't put a pacifist in charge of war policy and you certainly don't stick one near the controls of a superweapon!

    In sum, JE is where I started to think the focusing was off on NJO, that the books needed greater flexibility in terms of time and they needed to be bigger, much bigger: After all NJO is supposed to be a story of extragalactic invasion! Despite that, Luceno did a reasonable enough job with what he had to work with, but what he went on to do totally eclipses these early works.
     
  12. Havac

    Havac Former Moderator star 7 VIP - Former Mod/RSA

    Registered:
    Sep 29, 2005
    I couldn't disagree more. The whole point of the NJO was that every time and every place was the time and the place for moral philosophy, that to act rashly and recklessly, to give in to the "whatever it takes" thought pattern, is a terrible and dangerous mistake. "This is not the time or place for moral philosophy, this is the place for getting things done. Just fight back, kill them whenever you can," is the Sith argument. Luke, Jacen, even Anakin all fought against the idea that the middle of an all-out war was not the time or place for moral philosophy; indeed it's the most vital time and place, for it is the arena in which missteps are most dangerous. The problem was not that Jacen engaged in moral philosophy; it's that he was a young, immature thinker who lacked the experience to be able to put his principles into practice in a nuanced, developed, and real-world-applicable manner. He did not yet have the wisdom for that; his NJO arc is about his gaining that wisdom so that his moral philosophizing can provide the answers to end the war in a moral and Jedilike fashion.

    So, yes, Jacen's fear of anything like aggression is a dumb, unsubtle, problematic moral philosophy resulting from insufficient understanding. It's absolutely no reason to condemn moral philosophy in general. When you're dealing with superweapons, pacifists are the people most needed near the controls of a superweapon, precisely because it's a superweapon. You don't put General Ripper in charge of the nuclear arsenal; you put someone who's not going to use it until they absolutely need to. Not an absolute pacifist, not an undeveloped thinker like Jacen who still doesn't fully grasp the principles he's wrestling with, but you do put a responsible pacifist like Bail Organa or Elegos A'kla in there making sure there's a check on the system, a voice of conscience.
     
  13. Jedi Ben

    Jedi Ben Chosen One star 9

    Registered:
    Jul 19, 1999
    I couldn't disagree more. The whole point of the NJO was that every time and every place was the time and the place for moral philosophy, that to act rashly and recklessly, to give in to the "whatever it takes" thought pattern, is a terrible and dangerous mistake.

    * And how many have to die in order to keep your hands clean? This is where I really despise the notion that war can ever be "clean", it never is. As soon as you're involved you are morally compromised, you have committed a lesser evil, but SW is unable to acknowledge this cruel reality.

    "This is not the time or place for moral philosophy, this is the place for getting things done. Just fight back, kill them whenever you can," is the Sith argument. Luke, Jacen, even Anakin all fought against the idea that the middle of an all-out war was not the time or place for moral philosophy; indeed it's the most vital time and place, for it is the arena in which missteps are most dangerous.

    * You are aware that I have a prolonged interest in ethics? I WANT it handled Well, Hav! Not in this ham-fisted, heavy-handed fashion where there's only two extremes and nothing inbetween. The problem I had with NJO's take on moral philosophy is it went all the way to stopping the Jedi dead in their tracks. Luke was correct to fear 100 Darth Vaders arising from the aftermath of Jedi going all-out, but there is a good amount they could do without ever going near the dark side, but that was also stopped. Where was the evil in Kyp's attack on Sernpidal? Enemy shipyards are legitimate war targets.

    The problem was not that Jacen engaged in moral philosophy; it's that he was a young, immature thinker who lacked the experience to be able to put his principles into practice in a nuanced, developed, and real-world-applicable manner.

    * So why have him in that situation at all? For drama? It was a story-breaker for me, I could not buy the premise.

    He did not yet have the wisdom for that; his NJO arc is about his gaining that wisdom so that his moral philosophizing can provide the answers to end the war in a moral and Jedilike fashion.

    * Yet, in reality, isn't this a complete fiction and even mockery of war? It wouldn't be an issue except that from the start NJO was supposed to be more realistic, more brutal. It was to be a total war of survival as opposed to the limited, "honourable" Galactic Civil War. But it shrank from taking these ideas to their logical endpoint, probably because SW couldn't do it and it was a bad fit from the start.

    So, yes, Jacen's fear of anything like aggression is a dumb, unsubtle, problematic moral philosophy resulting from insufficient understanding.

    * Here I agree.

    It's absolutely no reason to condemn moral philosophy in general.

    * You know one of the things I loathe Havac? The notion that Jedi don't think because they know! I want Jedi who can think, who can reason their way through various ethical minefields - but on the battlefield - in mid-fight no less! - isn't the place for it. A Jedi in battle with a number of Vong can't worry if slicing off their enemies arm is wrong, which is what Jacen's position leads to.

    When you're dealing with superweapons, pacifists are the people most needed near the controls of a superweapon, precisely because it's a superweapon. You don't put General Ripper in charge of the nuclear arsenal; you put someone who's not going to use it until they absolutely need to.

    * And there isn't a need in AoC? There isn't a need for it to stop the Vong in their tracks by inflicting such a massive wound on them? It would be nice to think this would not be needed, but the path of reason has been tried as has limited force, hell an entire worldship went up in flames in Ruin, but end result? Zip.

    Not an absolute pacifist, not an undeveloped thinker like Jacen who still doesn't fully grasp the principles he's wrestling with, but you do put a responsible pacifist like Bail Organa or Elegos A'kla in there making sure there's a check on the system, a voice of conscience.

    * Well, we know what happene
     
  14. Jedi Ben

    Jedi Ben Chosen One star 9

    Registered:
    Jul 19, 1999
    Hmm, maybe this excerpt will be of help as it does really nail most of my difficulty with NJO:

    http://www.bleedingcool.com/2009/08/24/garth-ennis-when-2000ad-was-the-future/

    Finally, there?s the best bit of all, to me the greatest moment in comics history: part 22 of The Apocalypse War. Having fought a losing battle against the invaders, seen half of Mega-City One destroyed, massacred collaborators and euthanised the critically wounded, Dredd has led an elite team of Judges into an East-Meg missile silo. Following one of the best action sequences I?ve ever read in a comic, the Judges find themselves unable to gain access to the operations room, until Dredd simply bangs on the door with his pistol and shoots the curious halfwit who opens it point-blank. Our boys storm the ops room and seal the door. Anderson, the telepath (and only volunteer in the Apocalypse Squad- no peacenik cosmic wandering in those days) pulls the launch codes out of the silo commander?s mind. The nukes are targeted on East-Meg One. ?Please, Dredd?, begs the commander, ?There are half a billion people in my city?half a billion human beings! You can?t just wipe them out with the push of a button!? And Dredd doesn?t hesitate, not even for a second.

    ?Can?t I??

    He can and he does. I still think about that today; what it meant about the character, and about the comic I was reading (aged 12). Even now I don?t know if Dredd was right or if he was wrong. It was the only way to win, to avoid the further slaughter and enslavement of his own people?but it was genocide. It was moral courage on an almost unimaginable level?but it was appalling. In the end, it was a dilemma not unlike those faced by a number of good and bad men in our own history, and if I had to sum it up in one line, I?d say this: what are you prepared to do when there isn?t any easy way out?


    NJO started as a war without an easy way out, then later became just that: Kill the boss, kill their boss and war's over.

    It's interesting to note though, that the destruction of East-Meg 1 didn't end the war! The invasion leader Kazan decided to take the surviving city and was only killed by one of his subordinates after the nuking of East-Meg 1, who had been convinced by Dredd that the war had to end - both the enemy city and the invasion leader had to go to break the force. So in this respect it does have something in common with NJO.

    Me? I think Dredd was right, it won't be something he's proud of but it did have to be done. You may think differently.
     
  15. Jeff_Ferguson

    Jeff_Ferguson Force Ghost star 5

    Registered:
    May 15, 2006
    Before I get to quoting and responding, I want to talk briefly about the character of Fasgo. In Hero's Trial, he was some random punk who made a living causing trouble aboard the Jubilee Wheel, and happened to be in a bar giving information to Han & Roa when a barfight with Bossk erupted. That led to a simply awesome scene where he, Roa, and Han were sitting in a jail cell, comparing their wounds and talking about what a great fight it had been. Before you knew it, he and Roa were sucked into the maw of a Yuuzhan Vong Dread Weapon... and it would have been really easy to forget about the character right there. Instead, Luceno included him in Jedi Eclipse as a major part of the Yammosk/Wurth Skidder storyline, and when he died at the end, I was actually really upset (in the cathartic way, not the "author is stupid" way). Han & Roa grieved him, commenting, "He could have been a friend." And I thought it was amazing that Luceno created what seemed on the outset to be a generic character, and through his death, wrote what was probably the most touching moment of the entire duology for me.

    Everyone seems to be hating on Wurth for not having an escape plan. I say, not having escape plans is what SW is all about! If Luke, Han, & Chewie had taken time to think of an escape plan, they probably wouldn?t have been able to rescue Leia from the Death Star. :D While it?s true that his plan didn?t end up accomplishing what he wanted it to, I think that there?s still a lot to be said for the fact that he tried. As I said before, uncovering the secrets of the Yammosk was essential to winning the war, and with circumstances so dire, I think that the desperate measures that Wurth undertook contain some respectability.

    I guess the only really positive note that this novel ended on was that Droma reunited with his clanmates. Odd that the actual reunion happened offscreen, though.

    Skidder is definitely along that scale. Part of his justification for going on his lone mission comes from his musings that Master Skywalker discourages vengeance, but maybe Master Skywalker isn?t always right. Though you?re right in that it?s not his only motivation, it?s still very important, and a very important central theme to the entire novel. When is vengeance OK? When is fighting fire with fire OK? I realize that those two aren?t the same, but they?re closely related, and the novel explores both questions as one, really, combining them into one even more difficult question: Does the end justify the means? If you win the war and defeat the enemy, is it OK that you were motivated by vengeance? If you win the war and defeat the enemy, is it OK that you responded to their brutal tactics with equally brutal tactics?

    So even if Anakin isn?t a member of Talon Karrde?s camp per se, his storyline in the novel is byfar the most impor
     
  16. beccatoria

    beccatoria Jedi Grand Master star 4

    Registered:
    Dec 8, 2006
    Jeff - you highlighted exactly my problem with "is it all right to be motivated by vengeance," when you point out that Anakin's ultimate decision in terms of morality and fighting the Vong is to oppose them - to fight fire with fire, but NOT because he wants revenge.

    I think "ends justifying means" is an inherently problematic concept because what people usually mean by that is 'does your most obvious and impactful end justifying all the other horrifying ends you ALSO achieved with your brutal means." I think that the ends do justify the means, but I think that people are often exceptionally shortsighted when tallying up those ends. People slot torture, murder, brutality into the "means" section, nice and tidy, when actually those are things you achieved just as much as...whatever good thing you're going for at the end. And so, again, it becomes a scale, a moral minefield of how much you negative you can achieve in pursuit of the positive and there, yes, I'm much fuzzier on what should be accepted.

    I somewhat disagree with your take on Jai Maruk's death and reasons behind it, in no small part because of tone and the mystical overtones of the SW universe that I felt were strongly at play there, but this isn't the thread to debate that. I will say that had I interpreted it as you do, then I would absolutely feel the same way. I don't know if you've ever seen the new Battlestar Galactica? But my favourite character on that show was the President and the reason she was my favourite was because she was constantly faced with choices like this - betray her personal principles and kill parts of her own soul in order to save her people, and she never, ever flinched from it and she never became a monster.

    That said, vengeance, especially in the SW universe IS a corrupting force. And this is where this discussion begins to overlap with Ben and Havac's. Wurth Skidder is flat out wrong when he thinks that Master Skywalker is wrong about not using vengeance as motivation. He might have a point if he thought Luke was dragging his heels on proactive defence - that's a perspective I'm dubious I agree with because I think that Luke ISN'T actually as passive as some make him out to be in these novels, but it is one I think is morally coherent.

    But being motivated by vengeance suggests you are getting pleasure from another's suffering. I understand that satisfaction in seeing justice done, indeed, any response less than Vader-forgiving mercy could be seen as only degrees away from this, but the distinction is important. There are two issues here. The first is what you achieve, then second is why you achieve it and the second is important because it speaks to the state of your character and your mental health.

    Two people, one motivated by a desire to defend innocents, the other motivated by revenge, might achieve exactly the same outcome. But the person motivated by revenge is likely to be far less balanced and healthy. Revenge is both a cruel and a personal motivation; if you are also acting in service to the wider galaxy it is only coincidental. This may be an acceptable motivation for people such as Karrde, and maybe they'll fall into a spiral of revenge and despair and become monsters, and maybe not. But it's NOT an acceptable motivation for Jedi bound to defend the galaxy because it's the right thing to do.

    Vengeance is selfish and when you use the Force for selfish reasons the chances of slipping toward the dark side are far, far greater.

    I am also no fan of black and white morality. But I think that you have to have near-black and near-white on either end of the scale before you can even have this wonderous minefield of grey to navigate. I also really hate seeing the morally dubious held up as morally complex just because the hero is an angst-ridden loner with cool hair. It's absolutely fine for angst-ridden loners with cool hair to achieve great things because their selfish desire for vengeance coincidentally lined up with what was best for the galaxy, but the
     
  17. Jedi Ben

    Jedi Ben Chosen One star 9

    Registered:
    Jul 19, 1999
    Becc,

    1) Yeah, pretty much - I agree with Hav's central point about the importance of thinking, I'd hope that's clear from my reply - it's more the handling of that irritates and the situation itself, which feels contrived. Although I'd forgotten about the older brother influence that definitely plays a role. In essence I want people to be interested in philosophy, I don't want the perception to be:

    "Hey, this load of Jedi just sat on their backsides and did nothing while loads of people died, what a bunch of woussies!"

    Instead of:

    "The Jedi did all they could while avoiding the horror of losing their soul to a satanic darkness that hungers for them."

    In SW there is indeed a dark side and it does indeed prey on Jedi and it does want to grab souls where it can - that has to be recognised, because you can't evaluate Jedi action fairly without it. I didn't like Skidder at all in JE or in his earlier appearances, equally I can go on at length on how NJO failed to portray Kyp right but that's another thread.

    What did I want? Instead of the 2-tiers of good/bad: Permissible/not permissible, I would have liked a 3rd option, not so muc middle ground because that implies equality between the two sides of good and evil and that isn't really so. But reading NJO I got the sense that Luke would not have been permitted to do what he did in the OT under the extremity of ethics being presented, it was as if any violent act would be automatically evil. It was a level of perfection entirely new to SW, which had been previously, to me, a universe more at ease with the imperfection of life and those beings that live it.

    2) I'm wondering if part of the reason in perception of stories is cultural and in that respect there's an outlook and stories done in the UK that simply aren't done in the US. At the same time there is a difference of historical experience and heritage passed on, the 1940s blitz bombing of London by Germany, the various terrorist bombs. I do think that does give us a different, perhaps harsher, take on the nature of war and what is and is not permissible in response to aggression. One very good way of summarising that difference is to look at a good exampole of this different take, hence Dredd. Although, another British iconic creation, Dan Dare, also saw nothing wrong in taking the battle to the enemy and Dare is a far more heroic man than Dredd.
     
  18. ancslove

    ancslove Jedi Youngling star 1

    Registered:
    Oct 27, 2006
    Ooh, interesting discussion! I'm not ready yet to jump into the big moral dilemma here, but just my 2 cents on Wurth Skidder:

    Wurth's big problem wasn't his desire for revenge, it wasn't even his overwhelming pride (although, that was worse for me than his vengeance motivation). It was simply that he wasn't good enough! He was young, immature, cocky, and desperately wanting to prove himself. He wanted to become a leader in the battle between Luke and Kyp. However, he just couldn't do it. To go back a bit, Luke gave up group responsibility to the Jedi in Dark Tide. Kyp then surrendered pride. Both managed to unite their factions and clarify their positions. Wurth also surrendered pride, but could not effect the same result as Kyp. Fast forward to JE, Wurth is still trying to "play with the big boys," thinking up and taking on the yammosk mission in an effort to further the war effort and show up Luke. He's very similar to Ganner's position in Dark Tide, and both were/are vocal members of Kyp's group. But, Wurth himself is simply not ready for this kind of mission (remember, Ganner had Corran to back him up), and so never reaches Ganner's epiphany and maturation. As has been pointed out, not having an escape plan is kind of reckless and stupid, but it's not always an insurmountable problem, if you have the necessary skills and wits. Unfortunately, at this time, Wurth did not, and he paid the price. He did ultimately greatly aid the war, and his theory about the yammosk's importance was pretty correct, but he did not have what it took to survive. It's actually an anomaly of sorts in the Star Wars heroic pantheon - just not being good enough for the task at hand. But, from the wording in Dark Tide, I don't think Wurth was ever meant to be the hero. The tragedy of Wurth Skidder is that he didn't realize his own limitations. He thought he could be the hero, but he greatly overestimated his own abilities, and never managed to recover.
     
  19. Havac

    Havac Former Moderator star 7 VIP - Former Mod/RSA

    Registered:
    Sep 29, 2005
    Really? I think it's acknowledged it quite well at times. But for how many have to die to keep your hands clean? I suppose it depends, but this is something I'll come back to.

    I don't think Luke was that inactive; it was only in a small handful of books that he overreacted. Mostly he was active, but chose to be active in a more restrained way because he was very concerned about losing Jedi to the dark side, and he didn't want to give them too much rope to hang themselves with. Was he overcautious? I think so, personally. Did he take some bad stances by pushing too far back from Kyp's positions out of misplaced fear? Yes, I think so. But it's always been his weakness to take too much responsibility for the choices of others, and it didn't keep the Jedi from being effective -- they were all doing plenty of good work, and it was not long at all before they started taking a very active role indeed. And, just to point out, the outrage over Sernpidal was due to the fact that Kyp was knowingly condemning Vong civilians to die, and that he had lied and manipulated the NR forces into risking their lives to strike at it by falsely crying "Death Star!" -- something not inconsiderable. While I wouldn't have a problem with the strike if Kyp had been up-front about it, there's certainly room to see where Jedi would be offended.

    It would be a story-breaker for me if Jacen, at sixteen and seventeen years old, was a wise philosopher who had all the answers. That would be absolute bull. I love the fact that he was an intelligent kid who was searching for wisdom, who was feeling his way through moral issues, who was deeply concerned with doing the right thing, with understanding the Force, but was inexperienced, immature, and couldn't put it all together right away. Why does he have to be perfect? How is perfection less story-breaking and unbelievable than imperfection?

    That's the beauty of it. The Jedi step into this horrific, brutal, bloody war, and some of them, the wise among them, say, "This can't be right. This can't be the Jedi way. We have to be able to do better than this. There has to be a better answer." You keep saying Star Wars isn't Battlestar Galactica. You're right. It's not. It's got Jedi. The triumph is that in this horror, in this brutality, the Jedi do find a better way, because they're determined, because they're wise, because they undertake to understand the other side, because they proselytize, because they're compassionate. Because they're Jedi. Because Anakin, in his idealism and compassion, befriends a Shamed
     
  20. Jedi Ben

    Jedi Ben Chosen One star 9

    Registered:
    Jul 19, 1999
    Hav,


    Was he overcautious? I think so, personally. Did he take some bad stances by pushing too far back from Kyp's positions out of misplaced fear? Yes, I think so. But it's always been his weakness to take too much responsibility for the choices of others, and it didn't keep the Jedi from being effective -- they were all doing plenty of good work, and it was not long at all before they started taking a very active role indeed. And, just to point out, the outrage over Sernpidal was due to the fact that Kyp was knowingly condemning Vong civilians to die, and that he had lied and manipulated the NR forces into risking their lives to strike at it by falsely crying "Death Star!" -- something not inconsiderable. While I wouldn't have a problem with the strike if Kyp had been up-front about it, there's certainly room to see where Jedi would be offended.

    * Except I recall Keyes' version being far less clear and premised on the Vong being so short of resources that they had to have that new worldship - despite conquering hundreds of planets! Then SBS' summary changed things.


    It would be a story-breaker for me if Jacen, at sixteen and seventeen years old, was a wise philosopher who had all the answers. That would be absolute bull. I love the fact that he was an intelligent kid who was searching for wisdom, who was feeling his way through moral issues, who was deeply concerned with doing the right thing, with understanding the Force, but was inexperienced, immature, and couldn't put it all together right away. Why does he have to be perfect? How is perfection less story-breaking and unbelievable than imperfection?

    * That a 16-year-old is in that sort of position at all isn't unbelievable to you? OK, our tastes obviously differ.

    That's the beauty of it. The Jedi step into this horrific, brutal, bloody war, and some of them, the wise among them, say, "This can't be right. This can't be the Jedi way. We have to be able to do better than this. There has to be a better answer." You keep saying Star Wars isn't Battlestar Galactica. You're right. It's not. It's got Jedi. The triumph is that in this horror, in this brutality, the Jedi do find a better way, because they're determined, because they're wise, because they undertake to understand the other side, because they proselytize, because they're compassionate. Because they're Jedi. Because Anakin, in his idealism and compassion, befriends a Shamed One. Because Jacen meets the universe and its pointless, ugly cruelty with love. Because Luke Skywalker refuses to believe the only answer is genocide. Because the Jedi are Jedi, they find their other answer, and they bring a peaceful resolution, they bring redemption.

    The franchise didn't shrink from the brutality of war. It overcame it. Because dammit, it's Star Wars.

    * I really like these two paragraphs but do have a concern: Just how well do these two tones really mesh? NJO seems to want to mix Saving Private Ryan with SW and flips between them in an oddly discordant fashion. The other concern is will people forget about just what a horror war is?

    * In a way my second concern goes to how NJO sold itself: That of a more brutal, more realistic war, now you can say that's marketing and it arguably was but it was also successful marketing and that creates certain expectations which I'm not convinced NJO met. SW is escapist you say? Of course it is, but if that is what it to be then let it be that.

    That's an unlikely scenario; Jacen was frequently willing to fight when it came down to combat. Reluctantly, perhaps, but always willing. But I think the broader trend you're criticizing is part, again, of Jacen's immaturity as a thinker. He was still puzzling through things, he didn't have everything figured out, he didn't have a framework established in which to make decisions. He was so determined to get things right, so terrified of making a mistake, that he allowed his philosophical indecision to paralyze him to some extent; he didn't want to have to make a choice.

    * In which case should he really have been
     
  21. Jeff_Ferguson

    Jeff_Ferguson Force Ghost star 5

    Registered:
    May 15, 2006
    I think we can all agree that Jedi are bound by a stricter moral code than non-Force-sensitives, since the dark side can so easily corrupt. But the question of non-Force-sensitives using vengeance as motivation --- is it OK for that to happen now and then? They can?t be corrupted by the dark side, but you?re absolutely right in that it may still cause them to fall into a revenge/despair spiral. Nevertheless... if those two people you mentioned were the only two people who could save the galaxy from the Vong, would it really matter if one was motivated by revenge?

    I?ve tragically only seen the first few episodes of Battlesun Odyssey, but I knew I liked the president even from those.

    I would love to talk indepth about Jai Maruk with you if we do Dark Rendezvous at a later date.

    Oh, totally. Although I believe that a large grey area exists, I still believe that there are similarly large black and white areas at either end.

    And nobody is a hero in the same class as Anakin Solo. [face_peace]

    Hear hear. A Yuuzhan Vong battle fleet encroaching on Fondor, with the intent of wiping out its defense, killing and/or enslaving its inhabitants, and devastating its ecosystem ---

    A Death Star encroaching on the fourth moon of Yavin, with the intent of destroying the planet and the Rebel Alliance, built by an Empire that is known to kill or enslave citizens and [l
     
  22. Jedi Ben

    Jedi Ben Chosen One star 9

    Registered:
    Jul 19, 1999
    I wouldn't say it's wrong to object to an act of mass destruction, it isn't the best option, but in both cases it's arguably the only one they have. Luke and Jacen may well see each as representing the lesser evil. Where they would likely differ is that Luke would still go through with it, Jacen wouldn't. But if you don't use this option, the question: What do you do? What would be better? Is there even such an option present?
     
  23. beccatoria

    beccatoria Jedi Grand Master star 4

    Registered:
    Dec 8, 2006
    Welcome ancslove! Thanks for your opinion on Skidder. I half agree with you. I certainly think it's that wasn't good enough is as good a way as any to describe the unfortunate effect of his arrogance and shortsightedness when mixed with his desire to acheive big, heroic goals. He's an interesting contrast to Anakin Solo, who also voluntarily drops in behind enemy lines with no clear escape plan to save someone, except succeeds through, near as I can tell, sheer force of being good enough to manage it.

    That said, I think that your comparison with Ganner is also a good one - and Ganner eventually was good enough. Perhaps not as full of raw Force power. Perhaps never as innately elegant a fighter or natural a hero, but by the end, he had learned and he was definitely and absolutely good enough. As you say, Skidder didn't have a Corran to teach him and it had fatal repercussions for him. But I would definitely not want to say he never would have been good enough. He was just...too young to realise he wasn't still young enough to know everything. ;)

    I don't want to jump in too much on the debate going on between Hav and Ben because I feel it's already mostly been covered, but I say slightly confused by where exactly the disagreement lies regarding this specific incident (I do see your broader differences in opinion). I believe that Ben is focusing on the fact Jacen made the wrong decision when any more advanced ethical thinker would have swiftly concluded action was necessary while Havac is concentrating on the fact that there should have been a more advanced ethical thinker there to make that decision, because it's important that someone does? Would that be correct?

    Also on a slight tangent regarding the wider NJO, I do take Ben's point that one doesn't immediately think of Saving Private Ryan when one thinks of Star Wars. That said while I will defend forever the indefinable "feel" of Star Wars, I do also think that the universe is large enough to encompass a huge variety of genres and story styles. I think that "horror of war" can be done very well in a Star Warsish way, and that many of the NJO novels manage it. That said, I do concede that it was a very different tone to that struck by Bantam.

    To Jeff, firstly, yes, I really want to do Dark Rendezvous at some point because I LOVE that novel, so I'm sure we'll get to debate Jai Maruk at some point. ;) Although I'll look forward to rereading first because I confess the exact sequence of events surrounding his death is a little hazy right now (my memories of the novel go something like this: "YODA! DOOKU! SCOUT! YODA! YODA AND SCOUT! YODA AND DOOKU! NOOOOO ANAKIN AND OBI WAN WHY ARE YOU RUNNING IN TO SAVE THE DAY? DOOOOOKUUUUUUUU!" And I refuse to be embarassed by this! :p)

    As to your other points:

    Well, that's not a simple question. I can certainly imagine a scenario in which someone motivated by revenge saves the galaxy and really no adverse effects occur to either the person or the galaxy and in that instance, I guess no, it wouldn't really matter. Some people are capable of having their revenge sated; some people's desire for revenge isn't hugely brutal, although at that point, considering the very specific negative connotations of the word, perhaps that person would be more motivated by a desire for justice than thirst for revenge.

    Regardless, I'm happy to concede the point that simply being angry and wanting some payback - while more dangerous to a Force Sensitive - isn't an instant ticket ot demonhood for everyone in all circumstances.

    But I also think the person motivated by revenge is more likely to effect a more brutal solution than is necessary. Is more likely to take things too far. On a personal level is less likely to find peace afterwards. Is more likely to let tha
     
  24. Jedi Ben

    Jedi Ben Chosen One star 9

    Registered:
    Jul 19, 1999
    Er, Hav seems to have concluded that my disdain for Jacen, his outlook and action means I despise philosophy entirely - something I've been at pains to correct. Other points of disagreement tend to revolve areound nature of war, its use and presentation in stories.

    As to the horror angle of war, part of the reason I like Shatterpoint so much is it takes that to its logical endpoint, Mace is active throughout and fights both philosophically and physically. In just about every respect it could be said to be what NJO shuld have been.
     
  25. Jeff_Ferguson

    Jeff_Ferguson Force Ghost star 5

    Registered:
    May 15, 2006
    A standalone set during the Clone Wars?

    I kid, I kid.

    Well said. If Luke, right before beheading Shimrra, had suddenly become pissed off by the Overlord?s use of Anakin?s saber and had decided to kill Shimrra in order to avenge Anakin?s death --- the end result for the galaxy would be the same, but Luke would probably be pretty f?ed up afterwards. And I doubt if that?s what Talon Karrde had in mind; he seemed to be thinking in the best interests of the galaxy, rather than in any one person or group. And he also wasn?t likely considering what sort of bad things an avenger would end up doing in the future, either.

    Even so, if it were the only way to defeat the Vong, I?d act out of revenge.

    That?s actually very true. And I feel kind of silly for not realizing it before.
    :oops:
     
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