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  1. In Memory of LAJ_FETT: Please share your remembrances and condolences HERE

181st Imperial Discussion Group: Dark Journey!

Discussion in 'Literature' started by beccatoria, Mar 1, 2010.

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  1. beccatoria

    beccatoria Jedi Grand Master star 4

    Registered:
    Dec 8, 2006
    Happy St David's Day everyone! :D

    This month we will be discussing Dark Journey by Elaine Cunningham. The TF.n staff reviews can be found here.

    As usual, I'll throw in a few discussion points and then jump in as we go:

    - So this is Jaina's novel and it sees her dealing with the loss of (apparently) both her brothers. As such, I'm gonna throw out two discussion points focusing on Jaina. The first is, obviously, her fall to the dark side. Were you convinced by it? Did it feel real to you Did it feel like a fall at all? Did she really do anything all that reprehensible, and were the devastating new tactics she managed against the Vong worth that price?

    - Secondly, the characters Jaina interacts with. She essentially isolates herself from her family and childhood friends, with the interesting exception of Lowie. But Tenel Ka, Zekk, Tahiri, etc., are all out on their ear, basically. Instead we have the romance with Jag and the decision to use Kyp as the warning of the future she might face - how did you think these plotlines were handled?

    - The backdrop to the novel is Hapes and its political intrigues, which means that Tenel Ka also gets a fair amount of page time. What did you make of the decision to move the novel to this setting? And interesting deceitful setup to parallel Jaina's assumption of Yun-Harla's identity or a letdown after the explosive all-out action of Star by Star?

    - Finally, I'd be remiss not to mention that this novel really doesn't have the best reputation among SW fans. It seems to be considered one of the weaker NJO novels and, by some, one of the weaker overall SW novels. What are your thoughts on that? Do you agree or disagree, and why?

    Take it away!

    Future 181st schedule is as follows: April - Children of the Jedi, May - Darksaber, June - Planet of Twilight, July - Jedi Trial, August - ???!
     
  2. JediAlly

    JediAlly Jedi Grand Master star 4

    Registered:
    Oct 31, 2000
    I will post my thoughts later, but I thought I bring the readers up to speed on something. For those of you who never got the Gamer magazine or who don't have Hyperspace access, Elaine Cunningham wrote a short story called The Apprentice that served as a hidden chapter/tie in with the novel. It takes place late in the book while Jaina, Lowie, Kyp, and TK are on Gallinore.

    Tenel Ka attuned a Gallinorean rainbow gem, a living creature, to her lightsaber, just as Anakin attuned a lambent. Jaina believes the scientists on Gallinore might help her gain a better understanding of the ship they stole from the Vong. They go there to meet with the scientists. While Tenel Ka handled the diplomatic formalities, Jaina and Kyp planned to transport the Hapan prisoner, whom they stowed away aboard their ship, to a controversial scientist named Sinsor Khal. Jaina wanted Khal to remove the yorik coral implant and modify it, giving her a means of striking back at the Vong. She also wanted Kyp to teach her what she needed to know or do in order to win this war. Meanwhile, she had Lowie to monitor the computer systems and wipe any records. Jaina and Kyp had some trouble with the security system and the prisoner while transporting him. The prisoner tried to escape, but Jaina blasted him with Force lightning before Kyp somehow used the Force to end her attack. They also came across four guards. Kyp and Jaina agreed that the entire mission needed to be kept secret, not only because of the war but also to make certain the Jedi received no more bad press. She wanted Kyp to show her how to wipe minds, just like he did to Qwi Xux all those years ago. Kyp was reluctant, saying he would do it himself and that the apprentice should learn from the Master, not repeat the Master's mistakes. But Jaina insisted and Kyp relented. They each wiped the memories from two of the guards, then delivered the prisoner to Khal, who was in fact a failed Jedi. They made their way back through the lab to Lowie. Kyp returned to the ship, while Jaina went to Lowie. After making certain he had removed all evidence of her secret visit to Khal, she wiped his memories of his time at the computer monitor. Her cheeks were streaked with tears, but she wiped them away.

    From there, we return to the novel, where she went to see Sinsor Khal for a progress update. This should give you an idea where in the novel the events of this short story took place.
     
  3. timmoishere

    timmoishere Force Ghost star 6

    Registered:
    Jun 2, 2007
    This wouldn't have been such a bad novel, except for the fact that it was the one that immediately followed the majestic brilliance that was Star by Star. Think of it like eating a 3-day old dry steak immediately after eating filet mignon.
     
  4. Jeff_Ferguson

    Jeff_Ferguson Force Ghost star 5

    Registered:
    May 15, 2006
    Hey Timmo Is Here --- I never made the connection before, but... the AT-AT avatar, the moose reference in your sig --- you're The Dark Moose from TOS forums, aren't you?

    And yeah, this book does kind of have a The Truce At Bakura feel, doesn't it? It starts the day after something much bigger, and in the end, it feels like in the grand scheme of things, nothing's really happened.

    I read Dark Journey in January of 2005, so it's not quite as fresh in my mind as the X-wing novels were the past four months. I did, however, read The Apprentice for the first time about an hour ago, so thank you for bringing it up, Ally. The prose was very good, and a lot better than I remember it being in DJ, but admittedly, my memory could be way off.

    One odd thing I remember about the DJ narrative was that it would switch character POV's in the middle of a scene. The only other times I've seen this done in SW were in Tempest and Inferno, but Denning used smooth transitions between the POV's and worked them into the narrative structure of the scenes. In DJ, all of a sudden I'd realize that the thoughts I were reading were Jag's instead of Jaina's. It was very jarring, and it seemed just plain... wrong.

    Today, eight years after its publication, this book is still very relevant in that it gave us the opening flirtations in what would eventually become Jaina and Jag's romance. It was a romance I had been rooting for since reading Dark Tide Ruin, but it still came off a bit oddly. Jaina spent most of the book like "My brothers are dead! I'm going to go dark, ahhhh!" But then she would suddenly be laughing and holding hands and running through meadows with Jag.

    I think that this book could have been more relevant to the overall structure of the NJO if Jaina hadn't fully returned from her brief trip to the semi-grey side by the end, and the dark journey plot had continued into Enemy Lines. And what I just read in The Apprentice seemed to show a darker Jaina than what I remember from DJ --- somebody help me out; did she actually do anything darker than sit inside the Trickster with Lowbacca and growl at anyone who came near?
     
  5. timmoishere

    timmoishere Force Ghost star 6

    Registered:
    Jun 2, 2007
    Nope, I've never been on the TOS forums. The moose reference in my sig is from Family Guy.

    Re: Jaina going dark, she doesn't really do anything dark in the book, per se. She's moody and angsty and snaps at Kyp and Jag a few times, but compared to every other instance of someone going dark, hers is really mild. This book does, however, set up the self-destructive Jaina we've come to know later when she was declared the Sword of the Jedi
     
  6. Master_Keralys

    Master_Keralys VIP star 5 VIP - Former Mod/RSA

    Registered:
    Oct 8, 2003
    I'll see if I can comment in more detail later.

    For now, I'll simply note a couple of salient facts:
    (1) This is one of only 3 books in the NJO I didn't eventually own, and the only one of those three that I don't regret not owning.
    (2) I barely remembered this book when I reread through the NJO. It just didn't stick in my mind very well.
    (3) I think I've read through the NJO as a whole 4 or 5 times, and I've read much of it more than that. I've read this book perhaps twice. I've never felt that skipping it missed much, other than the "OMG JACEN IS DEADZORS!" moment, which was probably the emotional highlight of the book for me.

    As to why it's been panned among fans: I think the main reason is a lack of driving narrative oomph and some early continuity errors. DJ did not fit well after SbS, to say the least. The opening chapter takes Jaina et al from Myrkr to the still ongoing Battle of Coruscant. There may well be ways to reconcile that with the timeline of SbS?separating the internal narrative timelines from their apparent relative placement, etc.?but it just doesn't work for me in a narrative sense. That was the last book's story, and jumping Jaina into and then right back out of it just seemed jarring and out of place to me. Then, the book also had continuity issues with the books following it, the rather excellent Enemy Lines duology, with semi-repeated conversations, different motivations presented for characters' actions, and generally non-organic flow of narrative between the two. In short, I always felt that one could simply skip DJ, insert a short story into the middle with Jaina, Leia, and everyone else feeling Jacen's death, and be just fine.

    I suspect that that, more than anything to do with the internal quality of the book itself, is why it's not memorable to me: it doesn't do much for the NJO, and so it doesn't stick in the memory as part of the NJO's ongoing narrative in the same way.

    Of course, I have no idea whose fault, if anyone's, the continuity errors were, and I certainly am not trying to point the finger at Cunningham. The fact is that the book doesn't fit or flow well, IMO, regardless of whose fault that was, and I think that hurts the cause of the rest of the book. It breaks the suspension of disbelief by jerking the reader out of the story to deal with and somehow reconcile these concerns. Much the same feeling I had with parts of the Darth Bane books, and a few spots in the RC books, though much less intentionally in Cunningham's case, I have no doubt.
     
  7. JediAlly

    JediAlly Jedi Grand Master star 4

    Registered:
    Oct 31, 2000
    In this novel, we see the repercussions from the previous book. Did Jaina fall to the dark side like her grandfather did? No. I think she did fall to the dark side, but her fall was somewhere between Luke's and Kyp's. Let's look at the circumstances:

    She had been pushed over the edge physically, mentally, and emotionally.
    She had endured a harrowing experience.
    She had lost Anakin and then later presumably lost Jacen.
    Her home and her way of life had been turned upside down.
    The politicians weren't helping. In fact, they FUBAR'ed the situation, and their actions and inactions culminated in the fall of Coruscant in the previous book.
    From the Jedi's viewpoint, it would seem that half the galaxy had turned against them.
    She has lingering resentment towards her mother, which manifested in Balance Point. This stems from her mother being a politician and spending so much time away from home. That's a minor point, but I'll be getting to the relevance of this later.

    Take one and all the above, and even the Jaina haters will have to admit - she's way beyond PO'ed. Does she have the right to feel like this? Definitely. She was hell-bent on revenge, just as her grandfather was hell-bent on seeking revenge against the Tusken Raiders after they caused his mother's death. In both of their cases, the distinction between justice and revenge blurred considerably. Both wanted to take what they could get, whether it was justice, revenge, or a mixture of the two. Both wanted to lash out and make those they held responsible feel their pain. The same could be said about Kyp. He was mad at the Empire and the galaxy in general, and he lashed out in vengeance and pain.

    Did she do anything reprehensible? Yes. She was complicit in Khal using the prisoner as a living guinea pig. She wiped the memories of the guards to conceal her presence. She could rationalize it by saying the Jedi didn't need any more bad PR, but she was still accountable. Worse of all was her betraying Lowie's friendship by wiping his memories. These weren't as grand-scale as her grandfather's actions and Palpatine's. However, whatever shreds of innocence she might have had were lost. Her actions inflicted damage on her character and integrity, not on history and the galaxy. I don't recall if she used the modified yorik coral in any of the later books, so I don't believe the price was worth it.

    Before I continue, I should say that though she fell to the dark side, she did so willingly in the sense she willingly sought out vengeance. Just as Anakin Skywalker and Kyp did. They all knew exactly what they were doing and were willing to accept the consequences so long as they got what they wanted.

    Now for her interactions with the other survivors.
    Jacen and Raynar were not dead but out of the picture.
    The new characters who appeared - I don't think she ever developed any bonds of friendship with them during the mission.
    Tahiri - I never got any sense of bond between the two women at this point in the series, which was a shame. There was never any interaction between the two in the YJK. When she officially became Anakin's girlfriend, again, there was no sense of friendship between them. I think that was more damaging for Tahiri than Jaina. More to the point, Tahiri was as much a wreck as Jaina was, so she was in no position to help.
    Tenel Ka - I believe she wanted to help Jaina more, but she was dealing with the aftereffects of the mission as well. Then she sensed Jacen's supposed death, and she had to deal with the grief of losing someone she loved. At this point, the J/TK wasn't as profound as A/T, so Tenel Ka wasn't completely crippled. But then she had to deal with family emergencies and her grandmother's schemings. There's more to this, and I'll get to that in a minute.
    Zekk - I would have expected him to offer more support. He's been where Jaina was heading. He could have helped. He, like Tenel Ka, knew what Jaina was doing. Knew she was taking the path willingly. Knew what might be the potential consequenc
     
  8. Thrawn McEwok

    Thrawn McEwok Co-Author: Essential Guide to Warfare star 6 VIP

    Registered:
    May 9, 2000
    :D I have just one thing to say: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TjvKZHJeayg

    [face_dancing]

    I think that this novel suffered on its first release from following soon after September 11th 2001 - in that context, its understated style came over as underwhelming; with hindsight, it's probably the Star Wars novel that I've reevaluated most strongly.

    I don't think that this is a novel about a "fall to the dark side" (and I'd also add that the really dramatic Force-lightning tantrum happened in SbS), but I think that it's much better and more interesting for that - it's about a character who's lost her sense of direction, trying to stumble forward and work out what to do, in the middle of a scenario where everyone's demanding that she fight and lead (and while other characters are "falling" in various ways) and her worldview has been shipwrecked - it's about coping with the situation, including her new ability to use Force lightning; it's about some fairly flawed warrior characters, trying to work out just what the right role for flawed warriors is...

    I like that unexpected take on the characters and the situation (although I want to emphasise that I'm about the least enamoured fanboy I know when it comes to dark-fetishization - that's NOT what I like here), and I also like the unresolved way that it's left at the end, where someone (whether Kyp or Jaina is never made clear) is still throwing around Hapan guards with Force lightning.

    Segueing that story into an ESB-style ending for Kyp, Jaina and Lowie is VERY effective, and was perhaps the last point at which I felt the NJO really was going in a direction I could get behind. But maybe hindsight makes me nostalgic, too.

    Again, this is one of those things that changed for me; at the time, I was a big fan of Jag, and was rather pleased to see him return (even if he had a slightly wobbly continuity stabilizer on his TIE :p); in hindsight, I've tended to look more at the Kyp/Jaina interaction, which with its awkward edges and unexpected results (Jaina provides Kyp with the balance and focus he lacks) is perhaps one of the most interesting partnerships in post-SbS canon... [face_thinking]

    I think that the way that the other characters were handled was interesting, because most of them, now I come to think of it, "fail" or even "fall" in some way; Jag, Kyp, Lowie, and, oddly, Isolder, are the ones who're prepared (for their various reasons) to stick around - though whether that's a good thing or not is (appropriately) hard to determine...

     
  9. whateveritis12

    whateveritis12 Jedi Knight star 3

    Registered:
    Nov 29, 2008
    First Star Wars book I owned, and only got it because I had read some things on the wook and learned that this was a Jaina-centric book, big Jaina fan when I first started buying Star Wars novels. Now I have the books through BP, but just haven't got around to reading them so I don't really know how it works along with the previous and after novels, but this book was decent.

    I had no problem with Jaina taking the Vong ship and popping up on the back edge of Coruscant's fall. Makes everything seem even more helpless because Jaina sees her home get destroyed for a second time (though she only heard about Yavin).

    About her fall, it felt more like she was lashing out at the Vong, like someone said, in a similar manner to what Anakin did to the Tuskans in AOTC. They hurt her a lot so she was going to hurt them. Also thought this was the start of where she started compartmentalizing her emotions and not deal with things that hurt her the most. She had to be dragged by Kyp so that she didn't miss her brother's funeral. She hardly thought about Jacen, preferring instead to focus on doing what she could to destroy the Vong.
     
  10. cartermacgyver

    cartermacgyver Jedi Knight

    Registered:
    Dec 15, 2007
    This book holds a special place in my Star Wars heart. From the beginning I've loved it and have always enjoyed rereading it, something that tends to be a rarity with me for the NJO.

    Concerning the books reception and reputation, my biggest memory of waiting for it to come out was reading a review (well it called itself a review, it wasn't actually) of it in a newspaper where Cunningham was defending the book from being a romance novel. Because Jaina was the main character, and the cover was purple. Now I read romance novels, I find nothing wrong with them, and its a style that could bring some fun to the Star Wars universe, but this isn't a romance novel. It's a book about coping, about dealing with grief in bad ways. It's a very quiet and understated book when compared to the hugeness of Star By Star.

    What this book does for me is form the image in my head of the characters. Zekk, caring for Jaina, even in puppy love with her, but not willing to stand by her in the hard times and deal with her and her grief and the Dark Side trip she goes on.

    Jag, willing to stand by Jaina, even take on others for her, and at least try, even if you know he doesn't really know what he's dealing with.

    Kyp, wanting redemption so much that he's willing to go back to dark places, even as he's legitimately trying to save Jaina, and finding that his way really isn't working so well.

    Lowie, a friend always, standing by Jaina, even when it hurts him.

    Han, Leia, Luke, and Mara, all maybe more concerned with themselves and the big picture to either get Jania away from Hapes or stay and help her. Or even grieve with her.

    And Jaina, angsty, moody, a teenager dealing with a heck of a lot of power and roles that she isn't fully comfortable with. A young woman still learning to be comfortable in her own skin. Jaina has always been my favorite character from the EU, I identified with her early in the Bantam era and always loved it when she showed up, when this came out I was near her age and was dealing with some of the same issues, and so my identification and love for this character has always remained.

    Does she actually fall to the Dark Side? I've never thought so, it's more like Anakin's attack on the Tusken Camp, only a tad more drawn out, it's a horrible reaction to grief, it's certainly what could be the start of a major Dark Side falling. But she pulls back, starts actually dealing with some of her issues (something that is also dealt with in later books) and so I've always considered that she flirted, heavily mind you, with the Dark Side, but didn't completely fall and has never let herself go back to that place again.

    In some small ways this book is like Traitor. It takes the Solo twins, separates them from their other half and pretty much everyone who can hold them back, and changes them. Does it have the same brilliance of Traitor, well no. It's different. It's a quiet, almost elegant book for the twin who never had that portrayal. Or maybe that's just my affection for the book showing through
     
  11. beccatoria

    beccatoria Jedi Grand Master star 4

    Registered:
    Dec 8, 2006
    First of all, I'd like to thank Ally for the summary of The Apprentice - as I'm not a hyperspace subscriber, I couldn't otherwise have read it and am quite fascinated by the Lowie storyline especially in light of comments I'm gonna make in a minute (though I would guess one of the reasons we don't get as much of a "fallout" as might be appropriate is because the event occurs only in a relatively obscure tie-in to the novel and therefore isn't something most readers would be aware of?)

    I'll address the general place of the book within continuity first since there have been a few different people commenting on that.

    Firstly, I hadn't considered the original release date: I first read it way later than the post-9/11 release, but yeah...perhaps that did add to the feeling of disconnection from it. I also understand the "Truce at Bakura" effect, but again, Cunningham was handed a tough job with the follow-up to SBS. I think that it was, perhaps, doomed whatever approach she took. Though I have to be honest, I kind of liked the quieter tone. Perhaps more on rereading than I originally did. The shallow, beautiful backdrop of Hapes and the patently ludicrous subplot about Jaina marrying Isolder, gave the entire thing a surrealistic feeling that I felt was very apt for someone drowning in grief and disconnecting from it utterly.

    But to continue and talk about Jaina's arc for a moment, I have some...odd thoughts on it. I wouldn't dispute that she more or less "really" fell. She was throwing Force lightning around; the cut chapter in The Apprentice, if we count that, has some more clearly dark stuff going on, and there's the fact that she was being, well, dubious with the lives of the other pilots who flew with her, to be kind.

    That said, within the shape of the story and the arc of her character, some of that honestly felt...forced to me? I don't mean that her fall to the dark side felt forced - Ally gives us a very complete rundown of all the reasons why she is in a very dark place right now. I mean that...I completely believe that she is in this...temper tantrum of a place, with the Force with the galaxy, with her friends and family, with the Vong... But somehow, I feel her darkest moments - as Ewok notes - happened in the novel prior.

    Regardless of what she actually does that is unambiguously dark in this novel, what people remember her as is basically being in a really bad, angry mood, not...going full on VADER. That's what the tone is and supports: pain, exhaustion and anger. And that character arc is really very convincing to me and in fact, quite moving. I think that perhaps the idea of Jaina going dark was so compelling, the idea was to force that story out, even though a story of Jaina going through a similar arc to Jacen (not literally obviously!) - where she experiences anger, darkness, despair, joy and love but it's not really about her "fall to the dark side" any more than TRAITOR is about Jacen's.

    Because I would totally buy Jaina going dark for a while here, but...I don't know. Somehow that's not the emotional story I feel I'm being told.

    I suppose the weirdest and most concise way to say is to point to the final fight, where Jaina gives herself over to the dark side, expecting to die like Anakin, only to finally "wake up" and come back to her senses. But her experience in her haze of the dark side in that fight, is portrayed almost as a reverie - a spiritual vision. Like a wakeup call. I don't...compare it to TRAITOR, exactly, in terms of the overall emotional power in the context of the novel, because the story isn't the same one and it doesn't build in the same way, but it certainly occupies the same narrative space. And that's...a weird, yet interesting, place for a dark side haze to be.

    To move onto Kyp, I'll be honest he was probably my least favourite part of the novel. I just...don't really like him, to be honest. Mainly because I find him fairly hypocritical. He claims to be there to help Jaina back to the light, but I'll be honest, he
     
  12. RK_Striker_JK_5

    RK_Striker_JK_5 Force Ghost star 7

    Registered:
    Jul 2, 2003
    Teneniel Djo's death was an insult to her character and she was shoved into the fridge to shove Tenel Ka aside into a role she didn't want. I don't like this book. And that's putting it mildly. :mad::mad:

    Oh, and Zekk? After the events of the YJK, there's no way in hell he'd abandon her like this. Character derailment, and I hates it.
     
  13. cartermacgyver

    cartermacgyver Jedi Knight

    Registered:
    Dec 15, 2007
    Maybe I read too much fantasy as a kid where a prince or princess who didn't want the throne had to accept the responsibility and do what was expected of them, and even what they were born to do. From the moment I met Tenel Ka in the YJK and found out that she was the Hapan princess and that she really didn't want to take the throne ever, but that she was an only child, well I expected her to have a story where she had to accept that Hapes was her responsibility and not something that she could just pretend didn't exist. Would I have liked that story not to tossed in with Jaina's story? Yeah, I think it could have made a really cool political thriller all it's own. But from the moment her mother died I expected Tenel Ka to have to live up to the character I had come to know, smart, strong, responsible, a good person who would do what was right even if she had to sacrifice a lot in the process. What I didn't like was how long it took her in the book to be the person I knew that she was.

    The fairy court feel of Hapes only lent itself to the overall feel. Though they are most definitely not fairies, and the Hapen Court is not the Fairy Summer Court or Winter Court, Cunningham gave Hapes a mystical otherworldly feel that I don't often get in Star Wars. That Tenel Ka, a very practical grounded human character basically has to take her place as the Fairy Queen (I prefer to think she rules the Summer Court) is a fascinating character development, one I expected, but Cunningham did it very well I think.
     
  14. JediAlly

    JediAlly Jedi Grand Master star 4

    Registered:
    Oct 31, 2000
    I know what she did at the end of SBS to get Anakin's body back, and I should have included it. She started her fall then. She continued her descent in DJ, but she started to rise at the end.

    I like how you described the final battle as a haze of the dark side, becc. I think you can agree with me that Cunningham's portrayal of that battle at the end was very nebulous and confusing. It definitely wasn't as clear cut as Stackpole's or Zahn's portrayal of battles. She clearly went in to the battle not expecting to survive, just like Anakin and Ganner did. But while they did that in order to hold off the masses and protect others, she did it acting as an instrument of justice and/or vengeance for everyone in the galaxy who had been hurt by the Vong. Like she said in TUF, she came close to become "A Sword" the Jedi would have regretted creating.

    Did she go into a tantrum like Anakin did in AOTC? Yes. But she did more than Anakin did without going further in the end. What do I mean by that? You read my summary of The Apprentice? That's the "more". Anakin too did "more". Read the comics and see the cartoons, both drawing and CGI. Did she make a formal oath of loyalty to the dark side and to Darth Sidious like Anakin did in ROTS? No.

    Both Kyp and Jania began to gain control over themselves in this novel. Not the control over the Force required by Jedi Knights but control over themselves required by Jedi Masters.
     
  15. cartermacgyver

    cartermacgyver Jedi Knight

    Registered:
    Dec 15, 2007
    Huh, that is right. This really is where Jaina learns the control that she exhibits for the rest of the books. I can't really remember a time after this in continuity that Jaina losses that control. It makes her seem icy and cold at times, and she continues to have to learn how to still be herself and still connect and make friends, but the control that I so very much associate with Jaina starts here.

    As this is very much a coming of age novel for Jaina, what does it show that Kyp, an adult, learns the same lesson in the end? I would think that it shows that we continue to learn throughout our lives and in universe, that even Jedi don't or shouldn't stop learning.
     
  16. Grey1

    Grey1 Host: 181st Imperial Discussion Group star 4 VIP

    Registered:
    Nov 21, 2000
    One thing I find very important to notice, especially after having re-read it not so long after having re-read Traitor, is that it's really really obvious that the book was affected by its deadline. The pace that it starts with (and that actually works), combined with the amount of stuff happening, should have resulted in a 400-500 page book, instead it was cut short to the mandatory less-than-300. The story ends up rushed like your average video game. And I'm pretty sure that many of the issues people have with this book could have been avoided if it had felt more like a finished product, not like a hastened one.

    Which is unfortunate, because I think that it was an interesting story, and well written on its first 200 pages. They shouldn't necessarily have kept Jaina on the dark side for longer; it would have worked nicely for her to remain dark and apart from the Jedi so that Jacen had to really connect to her to bring her back after his return; but instead of cheapening the story, can't we see this as a strength of the character? Even when she's gone really far, Kyp's often debated goodness and Luke's inspired training have her anchored her enough to "get over it" instead of completely falling into that mud pit of hate and self-loathing?

    More thoughts to follow...
     
  17. Havac

    Havac Former Moderator star 7 VIP - Former Mod/RSA

    Registered:
    Sep 29, 2005
    I rather like that Jaina was in a dark place after her brothers' deaths, and it was understandable, and she gave in to that despair and lust for revenge and did bad things . . . but ultimately, she couldn't escape the fact that she did still have a moral compass, and eventually she just had to bow her head and admit, "Okay, I can't do this. I've got to get this back together." It's a realistic and understated fall to the dark side, it's totally believable and creates great drama for Jaina's character without being melodramatic or oversold as some sort of epic "I'm going to GO SITH and CONTROL THE GALAXY!" fall, which is what some people seem to criticize it for not being.




    Kyp is kind of weird here, but I love the fact that this is the beginning of his turnaround, when he realizes he's screwed up again and needs to start doing it right. DJ is the key in his reshaping into a really interesting character
     
  18. Charlemagne19

    Charlemagne19 Chosen One star 8

    Registered:
    Jul 30, 2000
    If there is to be a tombstone in the Literature forum, it will read. Charlemagne19: He Disagrees.

    Dark Journey remains one of my favorite Star Wars paperbacks and the definitive Jaina Solo story in my mind. It was a story written by the great Elaine Cunningham, who created the character Arilyn Moonblade for Forgotten Realms. Elaine is no stranger to writing semi-mystical magical knights in the service of a higher cause. I'd be tempted to compare Elaine Cunningham's Arilyn to Jaina but the two characters are very different. Still, it's an extremely well written novel.

    Boiled down to it, a lot of people wanted it to be another Traitor. Traitor is an examination of the nature of the Force and the process of breaking a person down to see enlightenment (see Fight Club to V For Vendetta). They also wanted it to be a sequel to the massive events of Star by Star. No, it's none of that, it's an intimate character piece designed to give Jaina Solo a personality. There's plenty of these in comic books. "Who is Wonder Woman?", "Superman: Secret Origins", and so on. A dissection of the character and what makes them tick.

    To be honest, I don't think Jaina Solo honestly existed all that distinctly until Dark Journey. There was a vague outline of her, created by Kevin J. Anderson's books. Jaina Solo is basically "The one who likes machines, piloting, and is the straight woman to Jacen Solo." Oddly, when RA Salvatore made Jacen the straight man and Anakin the jokester, Jaina was pretty much the same. She carves things with her lightsaber and flies a X-wing. What makes her tick though?

    In Dark Journey, we learn Jaina Solo is more the daughter of Princess Leia than anyone else. She's brassy, bossy, arrogant, and interested in figuring out how to bludgeon problems to death when necessary. She believes she may have to sacrifice her soul to the Dark Side of the Force in order to save the galaxy. That's a line that Princess Leia would never cross but it burns within her because she also has some of Anakin's blood inside her. The blood that has been hideously wounded because of Anakin Solo's demise.

    I applaud the decision to have Anakin Solo's demise pretty much a non-issue. I remember when there was still the belief he was coming back, people couldn't believe that they were burning his body in a traditional Jedi funeral. Yet, they did so, and there was no hints or second guessing about his death. The people acknowledged his death and moved on. His loss and Jacen Solo's provide the story its motivation but Jaina doesn't spent the entire book mourning her brothers. Her attempt at avenging them is her mourning.

    I honestly believe that the book's biggest draw is the fact that Elaine Cunningham neatly sets up the love triangle that Del Ray has milked ever since. I'll be honest, I have always felt that the biggest flaw of the NJO and sequels are the fact that the characters are fundamentally sexless. A lot of tension in Star Wars is romantic and the most successful of its sequels have this element. Jacen Solo's relationship with Tenel Ka was literally almost a non-issue with no real accounting for taste or reason why they felt this way. However, Jag Fel and Kyp Durron had a long-lasting love triangle in fandom due to the fact that it was easy to understand Jaina's attraction to both.

    In the end I regret Elaine didn't become a regular writer.
     
  19. Liliedhe

    Liliedhe Jedi Youngling star 3

    Registered:
    Feb 22, 2009
    @Charlemagne: Oh, nice, we can share tombstones^^.

    I liked Dark Journey quite a lot. It isn?t the best Star Wars book ever, but it?s very good. Now, I?ve not read a lot of the NJO, so I see it mostly standing on its own.

    Her fall was ? at least until Crosscurrent came out last month ? rather unique. It wasn?t a head over heels descent into madness, but a slow deliberate road into a place where nothing will ever hurt her again. Symptomatic for this was especially her refusal to believe Leia?s instincts that Jacen might still be alive. Jaina saw one brother murdered before her eyes, she felt the other leave the world screaming and with their bond severed, she?s suddenly alone for the first time ever. Small wonder she is afraid to hope ? and go through it again. Of course, that is not only quite defeatist, but also the road into despair. Given the three (I think it?s three^^) ways to the dark side, this is the least spectacular. But it?s still a fall. She just didn?t finish it. And, what makes it so impressive is that she comes back by herself. There?s no Luke for her, to pull her back.

    Was it worth it? That?s the wrong question. Could she have developed her tactics without her utter ruthlessness? Maybe, maybe not. But, I think the point isn?t what she did, but why she did it. Being a Jedi means making hard decisions on occasion ? but make them thinking clearly, without emotion, without attempting to justify what you know to be wrong. I think most of what she did she could have done without being darksided. But she did it for the wrong reasons, and for hate. Which chimes in nicely with the motives of Traitor, which is something of a parallel to this book, since both are journeys of self discovery. And ? at least in my reading of it ? both say that it is the intent that matters most, the motives of why you do stuff. ?Choose and act? Except Jaina here is driven by her base instincts and never chooses.

    As pointed out above it makes a lot of sense for Jaina to isolate herself from anybody who will stop her. Or who will make her feel again, and maybe hope again. Jag, now he is someone who is from a military background, and therefore ?ends justify the means? isn?t wrong to him, for a given value of means^^. He will let her go a lot further than anybody else. And Lowie? Lowie is her attack dog. He?s bound by Chewie?s life debt and he will not stop her. She keeps him around because she can control him. Yes, that?s cold.

    Kyp, on the other hand, is an interesting case. He?s very much about making choices, even if they go far. Which is why Jaina chooses to have him around I think. He knows about losing everything, and he is the last person to EVER chide her on what she does. She?s very clever here, a manipulator on par with Ta?a Chume, using people. And Kyp, knowing where she is going, has to allow it, because if he leaves there?s nobody who will try to stop her.

    So yes, I think all of this was well done, it is one of the more character driven novels in the Star Wars universe, which is always something I like.

     
  20. whateveritis12

    whateveritis12 Jedi Knight star 3

    Registered:
    Nov 29, 2008

    And that's the biggest draw to this novel. How many other books in the EU provide us with Jaina as the main focus? This book is about Jaina's reactions to all the heartbreak she experienced in Star by Star. Sure there's some other sub plots (who's going to be the next Hapan queen the biggest), but everything comes back to Jaina. You just don't see it too often. Now in FOTJ we're seeing more of her in a role as a leader of the Jedi (though only ones under a certain age), but there is still too much focus on her relationship with Jag instead of her relationship with the Jedi. She's the only Solo kid left she could be focusing on being the best Jedi she could be, instead she's focusing on individual pleasures.
     
  21. Nobody145

    Nobody145 Force Ghost star 5

    Registered:
    Feb 9, 2007
    Hm, I never understood why this book didn't have a better reputation. It might've paled a bit in comparison to the epic Star By Star and Traitor, but I thought it was pretty good. And I thought it set up quite a few important events for later, from Jaina's tricks against Vong tech to Tenel Ka reluctantly ascending to the throne after Teneniel Djo was just a catatonic zombie for the last few years of her life. And it acted as the Jaina story counterpart to the Jacen-centric Traitor, although that might've hurt it being compared against that book. I wouldn't have minded seeing more SW novels from Cunningham, and I'm still sad that Blood Oath was never really started, it could've been good.

    I haven't read the book in a few years, so if I remember anything wrong, please correct me.

    I didn't mind Jaina's fall too much- as far as she knew, both her brothers were dead, and the Vong were still taking over the galaxy, so she really got serious about fighting the Vong. I think the Goddess title started here? The twins had been important to the Vong before, but Jaina claiming to be the Trickster goddess really set them off, with some fanatical Lah on the other side (so fanatical I think the Vong commander didn't mind him going out and dying). While she was pretty ruthless, and even mind-wiping a few of her friends, at the same there's still a good deal of morality in her thoughts- she's not happy about it, but she wasn't glorifying herself for her bad acts unlike her twin brother when he fell. Eventually she just doesn't have it in her to go from "die Vong, die!" to "mwa-ha-ha!", and she comes out of it a little stronger. I think I actually liked this a bit better than Traitor in some ways in that its easier to understand- sorry, I just never cared for Vergere psychobabble, even when written by Stover.

    It was also nice to see Kyp sorta turn the corner. Up until SbS, he had still mostly been the maverick, the independent wild one- he's been fighting the Vong, but he still wasn't really making a dent. Now he's working with Jaina as she's starting to think like him- but for once, Kyp is the senior Jedi, rather than having Luke around, so Kyp has to act more mature than normal. Its sorta like how in the current Clone Wars cartoon, with Anakin and Ahsoka- Anakin has to be less reckless now that he has Ahsoka to take care of. Even moreso, there's still tension between them from when Kyp tricked Jaina into attacking that growing worldship, but after this book I think Kyp is mature enough not to do that again (trick others into helping him).

    And I'm pretty sure I remember one moment clearly- Jaina pins Kyp to the wall with Force lightning (not sure Force lightning works that way, but whatever), and then Kyp just easily dispels it, saying something like he's already been down that dark path, so he knows all the tricks. I just thought that was really cool- several major Jedi, like Luke and Kyp, have walked in the darkside at one point or another, so its nice to see that they're ready for it, though this is probably the only time that's ever happened. I just still wish someday that some darksider would try some trick on Luke and Luke would then easily counter it as he had gone somewhat deep into the dark too himself. Its not likely, with how they had to emotionally cripple Luke during the last big battle, but one can dream.

    Assuming I'm thinking of the right book, Jaina and Lowie (nice to see him used, even a little bit, even if he's written out later) take apart their captured Vong ship, although I'm wondering why the hell it took them so long to really take apart Vong tech? Then again, that was one of NJO's major problems- the good guys just couldn't win, or rather, it was editorially mandated that they lose until Destiny's Way, but by then it was like they just flipped a switch from "can't win" to "let their ability and experience kick in and start winning the war". Here it was a bit more gradual, as Jaina is really going all-out to take the Vong out.

    Not just on the martial front, but she's also playing politics
     
  22. whateveritis12

    whateveritis12 Jedi Knight star 3

    Registered:
    Nov 29, 2008
    Jag was there and it seemed like he and Jaina were looking towards starting to see if they could start something, then the war got back in between them and Jag was put in control of the rebuilt Hapan fleet (talk about random, did Jag even have any contact with Tenel Ka or Isoldor before he was given command of what happened to be Hapes last line of defense?).
     
  23. Grey1

    Grey1 Host: 181st Imperial Discussion Group star 4 VIP

    Registered:
    Nov 21, 2000
    While the pattern is there (and Jaina essentially takes on Jag as the male figure in her life after Jacen and Zekk are gone), it's not so much about her character, but rather about available characters and available character pairings in SW. How often did Leia and Mara share "a woman's adventure"? Who could Jaina hang around with except for Tenel Ka and Tahiri, and Tahiri would already be a stretch? And while Tenel Ka would be a great sidekick in this novel for even more valuable insight into the Hapan culture, Lowbacca had already been set up early on as being closer to Jaina so that the reader would get a Han/Chewie situation with the pilot/mechanic duo. It was just more likely.

    In essence, while the pattern looks psychologically important, it's got more to do with an overabundance of male characters and with the famous SW male bias. There's not really that many "female adventures" in SW; the first I can think of that doesn't feature a male (even in Crystal Star, Leia tags Chewie along) is the comic in which Padmé goes spying with Winter's mom, the second would be the Barriss/Luminara pairing in the original CW series or, more recently, Ahsoka running around with female Jedi in single episodes. Heck, even with Leia set off to look for Han in the Marvel comics, they needed to create Fenn Shysa.

    And didn't Dark Tide break the pattern anyway with Jaina having a female wingman as a "substitute brother" (even if that wasn't in focus as much)?
     
  24. RK_Striker_JK_5

    RK_Striker_JK_5 Force Ghost star 7

    Registered:
    Jul 2, 2003
    God, I flipping hated what happened with Teneniel and Isolder. More angst for the sheer hell of it. And Ta'a Chume! Her character development from the YJK, forgotten and tossed aside. :mad::mad:

    So, Tenel Ka loses her mother, her lover goes nuts and eventually kills her father, only to be killed by Jaina. And her daughter is taken from her as well. Not. Happy. [face_skull][face_skull]
     
  25. beccatoria

    beccatoria Jedi Grand Master star 4

    Registered:
    Dec 8, 2006
    Yeah, I agree, though tentatively I would say I liked that. Mainly because I can never follow space battles even when others find them clear and well-written, so given that I at least enjoyed that the thematic tone of the piece was apt?

    Yes, absolutely, although it does beg the question as to whether that control is borne of absolute grief and disconnect that Jaina has never fully processed, even if she learned to function?

    Actually, I can think of one time she lost that control - at the end of INVINCIBLE when she's holding Jacen's body and won't let anyone touch him. While I appreciate the understatement of the moment, at the same time, part of me wishes we'd seen more of it and stayed with the character there, for a while. That wasn't an occasion when she lost control in dark way like here, but...it was certainly a loss of the emotional cage she usually has built firmly around her.

    (Then again, I think it was McEwok who first noticed it, but I really find it fascinating the parallels between Luke and Jaina in INVINCIBLE and Palpatine and Vader in ROTS. I'm not for a second suggesting that the dark is the parallel - that would be an entirely different discussion. But Palpatine emotionally isolates Vader, gives him a title to define him, and makes him the sword of his Order and turns him into someone whose only purpose is to be that sword. Luke does not deliberately isolate Jaina emotionally, but he does give her the title, does make her the sword of his Order, and the end result is that, in INVINCIBLE, he sends her out as his emotionally crippled knight, who, though not as extremely as Vader, has lost so much she sometimes feels that being that sword is her only purpose.)

    I absolutely think that the fact she essentially rescues herself from the dark is a strength of her character. In fact, much as I love both post-Traitor Jacen and the relationship between the twins, I think I would have been annoyed had Jaina had to wait around to be saved. I'm grateful to this book and the Enemy Lines duology for giving her her own storyline and her own strengths as a character, even though in terms of the Big Narrative Hero she always plays second fiddle to her brothers. I think it's important that she got the chance to go through this on her own, without being overshadowed by either of them this time.

    Yes, I absolutely agree. What I was trying, a little circularly, to get at, is I feel that the "fall" you describe is the one that fits the narrative, but at times, perhaps I felt the book wa
     
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