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181st Imperial Discussion Group: Darksaber!

Discussion in 'Literature' started by beccatoria, May 1, 2010.

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  1. beccatoria

    beccatoria Jedi Grand Master star 4

    Registered:
    Dec 8, 2006
    Hey everyone!

    This month we will be discussing Darksaber by Kevin J Anderson. The TF.n staff reviews can be found here.

    Here are some discussion points and I'll jump in along the way!

    - Okay, let's start with the titular superweapon. What did you make of this plotline? Lemelisk is essentially building a differently shaped Deathstar though in league with the Hutts rather than the Empire this time. We have Yet Another Superweapon hot off the heels of both the Suncrusher and the Eye of Palpatine. Time for a change of pace, or classic Star Wars? And what of Lemelisk? How did you find his character and his serial murders? Sympathetic? Plain gross? Indicative of the way use of clones in the SWEU has changed over the years? Anything else?

    - Callista! Can't exactly leave her out since she's the common factor in the "trilogy" we're doing. What did you think of her storyline here? Apparently she can use the dark side but not the light; thoughts as to why? Does this make sense to you? And what of her ultimate decision to leave Luke?

    - And what of the actual Empire? Daala is once again a major player in the EU, but here she's a straight-up villain, although, interestingly, also still working with Pellaeon, albeit in very rather circumstances to the next time we'll see those two team-up. What do you think of her role in this story? Suitably menacing? Further evidence she was always psychotic? And what about the final "super" Force Push resolution to the plotline?

    - Finally, I'd be amiss if I didn't mention that this was written by KJA, a figure who tends to divide opinions. As I understand them, those who like him tend to point to the fast-paced action of his stories and their "Star Wars" feel, while those opposed point to what they perceive as cardboard writing and endless cliches/theft from the movies. Where do you fall on this scale, if anywhere, and did this novel cement or mitigate that opinion? It is interesting to note that the review thread here on the forum does not give Darksaber a very good score when compared with other novels, but the TF.n reviews linked above show both reviewers giving the novel maximum points, so clearly there's some broad division of opinion here!

    Take it away!

    Next month we will be discussing Planet of Twilight by Barbara Hambly.
     
  2. Lord_Hydronium

    Lord_Hydronium Manager Emeritus star 5 VIP - Former Mod/RSA

    Registered:
    Jun 11, 2002
    I just finished this days ago for a Wook project, first time reading it. Perfect timing.

    I see you've left the overall take on the book until the end, so I'll hold off on it too (spoiler: it's awful). :p

    Which makes it kind of interesting that you've started off with Lemelisk and that plot, because it's easily the best part of the book. Now, that isn't saying much, but in this case it kinda is. Lemelisk is a genuinely interesting idea for a character?a genius who wants nothing more than to build crazy things that kill lots of people. His plot offers some of the best moments of the book, particularly the rather clever notion of his multiple deaths (and an interesting use of Palpatine's soul transferring power). It also includes one of my favorite sections in the book, and one of the few unmitigatedly good passages:
    The rest of the plot is less interesting, although Bevel's takes on Sulamar and Durga are better than the characters themselves, who follow the ridiculously broad treatment of most KJA characters in having a few crazy quirks and little else in the way of personality. The actual resolution of this entire plot is rather amusing, in the only case I've seen where the villain is defeated by low-bid contracting and substandard workmanship. Basically, this plot is almost like a different KJA wrote this, because it's actually halfway decent, approaching good at Bevel's best moments.

    I'm leaving out the Han/Leia/Wedge/Ackbar/Madine stuff in this assessment, because it's just stupid. Ackbar and Wedge start playing war games literally right over Nal Hutta, and no one thinks this is a grotesque diplomatic incident? (Oh wait, it's cool because they're trying to intimidate the Hutts [which apparently just means Durga, because despite the plural, only one other Hutt, an assistant, even appears in the book] with their awesome firepower. Well done, Emperor Leia.) Madine is used in the most superficial of ways, and his ultimate death is a much bigger example of "pointless shock value" than can be levied on any deaths under Del Rey. Really, all the good guys are just jerks or idiots here. Han is like a bad impression of Han. Leia's a wannabe dictator. Wedge, looking for information on a Hutt superweapon, ignores his girlfriend who worked in a superweapon lab saying she sees a guy who works on superweapons on a Hutt planet.

    Luke and Callista. I'm just going to speak as little of this as possible, because it contains some of the worst love story and dialogue I've seen, and I include a certain movie we all know in that reckoning. I'm actually a little offended at the point where Callista and Mara get together for the sole purpose of fighting over Luke, and unfortunately that's about as interesting as this plot gets. Now, I haven't actually read either of the two books flanking this, so I can't really speak of Callista in broader terms. The "dark side only" thing is half-baked and never really used to near its potential.

    The Empire. Well, this is my first experience with Daala under KJA. And she's certainly special. At times I start to feel like the book is self-aware of how ridiculous she is, but then I realize that's just me reading too much into it. What's interesting about this plot is that it's actually pretty important in the long run. Pellaeon is brought back for the first time since TTT and placed into a position of importance, something he never had before and will be using in times to come. The warlords, the first signs of the Empire's collapse and the last hangers-on of Imperial power, are eliminated. The Imperial Remnant is founded anew out of the scraps of the former Empire. It's a pivotal moment.

    Overall opinions:

    This is my first novel by KJA
     
  3. Liliedhe

    Liliedhe Jedi Youngling star 3

    Registered:
    Feb 22, 2009
    It's a classic Shaggy Dog story. The first I read in Star Wars and pretty much the only one. That speaks for it, because normally Star Wars is not inclined to have these, and KJA is the last writer you'd think would do one. Lots of effort and betrayal and blood are expended for effectively nothing. I applaud that for the sheer guts it takes to come to this decision - and it's a welcome break from "save the galaxy again". Everyone goes through the motions, and then there was nothing. "parturient montes, nascetur ridiculus mus".

    Lemelisk got on my nerves though and his resurrections totally shot my suspension of disbelief point blank. Clones don't work that way.

    Liked the story overall, especially her relationship with Luke - but I stand by what I said for the last book: Heaven prevent a woman might be able to challenge him, so they had to strip her of her powers. To give her the dark side could get me on a tangent about how early modern age it is to attribute to women an affinity for evil and call everything tainted that is female, but I doubt that was the intent. It was probably just to show that the dark side is easier. That she feels it necessary to leave Luke speaks rather poorly of him: She does not believe he will love her if she is not equal and adequate to him. If that really was the case, Luke is quite a shallow person, honestly.

    KJA isn't a very good writer. I've read this book by him and Jedi Academy, too. He is one of those responsible for the absolutely ridiculously overpowered Jedi and the classification of the Force as magic. Nothing of which is in any way indicated in the movies. His characterisation is not very great, and he doesn't do the galaxy far far away a lot of justice... BUT there is far, far worse out there. I read Darksaber after struggling through any one of the books by KT, and I was utterly enchanted by KJA's poetic descriptions and wonderful use of language in comparison, as well as by the fact that his characters have different personalities. ^^ So I wouldn't say I hate his books, but I also don't especially like them. Darksaber I did like, because it goes against the grain so hard, being a story that admits it is pointless and proving that the GFFA doesn't work only on epic.
     
  4. Grey1

    Grey1 Host: 181st Imperial Discussion Group star 4 VIP

    Registered:
    Nov 21, 2000
    I just started reading COTJ (and I wasn't sure if I should start at all, seeing how I missed the discussion comletely, but then I thought - when would I revisit it ever again if not now?) and haven't touched Darksaber since the last time that I moved my shelves, but funnily I've still got some opinions left from back when I read it, which must have been sometime around the 97/98 new year... [face_thinking] I think my brother just got Jedi Knight around that time, could that be...[face_thinking]

    Anyway, there's this thing that nerd franchise writers/creators tend to do, and it's breaking the fourth wall: inserting little (or big) name-drops to previous works, and putting them together in a way that you don't think that it's a logical part of the story. While KJA was quite good in referring to former stuff like Mara from the Thrawn books or to Dark Empire (I only started buying SW comics because Jedi Academy had referenced Dark Empire, I don't know when or if I'd started otherwise), the constant references and quotes from the movies are downright annoying and childish. The worst part, which I haven't seen mentioned in the discussion so far, would be... THE HONEYMOON TRIP.

    Luke and Callista visit movie locations for Force-searching and sightseeing? Embarrassing! But wait, there's something even better: The Return of the Wampa! Now that's so contrived, Wampa-impression-rewriting and improbable that I'd like to not have read this. This particular Wampa surviving the loss of one arm, still being able to hunt for food and then fight for the position of leader of the Wampa clan would only work if it was so much better than the rest. Which it would only be "because it's the one we saw in the movie". Oh, maybe it was a hidden Jedi or something. Did I mention that it recognizes Luke? Classic stuff, this.

    But there's another part nobody's mentioned yet, and I think I remember that I somehow liked that... Kyp's running around and trying to prove his worth in this one, isn't he? And I think it's cool to see his friendship with Dorsk81, even if it's mostly setup for the drama of Dorsk's death. BTW, I always thought that Dorsk82 was another normal non-force-sensitive clone who therefore didn't understand his predecessor. Am I wrong, or was his Force-sensitivity added only later?

    Other than that, Madine's death was rather strong stuff seeing how Bantam normally didn't upset the toybox. Then again, Madine wasn't really a character; he'd only been a movie face that had not been important for the books either, so I think this death's impact says a lot about how the 90's EU fandom was already living on background info material like RPG books, the CCG and maybe some video games, blowing small bit parts of the movies out of proportion. Thinking about this might actually prove to be an important history lesson for those fans who grew up with Wookiepedia. ;) Oh, and again, it's name-drop time with KJA.

    Building another Death Star with a nerdy lightsaber-pun name and form wasn't that great, having it fall apart because it was all rubbish seems like a total waste of time to me (especially seeing how Madine died for nothing), and therefore the best plot of the novel - for me - was Daala's revenge attack. Which again went for the nerdy pun - Knighthammer... yeah... let me guess, that was the book's title until the Darksaber plot came along...

    All in all, I remember this as being neither here nor there, sitting between the Hambly books as a trilogy only because of Callista, and forming a bookend to JAT only because of Kyp, Daala, and the author. Sounds like interesting connectivity between several books in a time when normally any author just claimed an empty ABY-timeslot for his warlord of the year. Then again, it tries to be too much of its own thing to really shine as glue between the other books.

    And one last thought about the Jedi making the gigantic force push effort - while this is wildly out of proportion of everything we've seen before (and after that, I think Starkiller is the only Force-user to come close again), I like ho
     
  5. Jeff_Ferguson

    Jeff_Ferguson Force Ghost star 5

    Registered:
    May 15, 2006
    Darksaber was fun, dammit. Sure, it was a novel for six-year-olds, but its speed-of-light-pace, if lacking in coherency and cohesiveness, made it a page-turning fun read. Well... some of it, anyway. A lot of it was pretty bad, as I'll elaborate on below, but with Planet of Twilight, the slowest and least interesting SW book in the history of ever capping off this loose trilogy, a fast-paced movie-esque adventure, no matter how nonsensical, is a welcome reprieve from an unneeded Hambly overdose.

    I mean, Kyp and Dorsk 81 running around the galaxy one chapter, Daala and Pellaeon gassing a room full of Imperial warlords the next, Han & Leia hanging out on Nar Shaadaa the next, and Bevel Lemelisk reminiscing upon his many deaths after that --- there were like, a hundred different locations in the six or seven different major plotlines, and Anderson's decision to precede each chapter with a location name actually seemed to complement the style of the book in more ways than just refreshing the reader's memory.

    When the titular plotline concludes with the ineptness of the badguys causing their "massive superweapon" to fall apart, there's no doubt left that KJA isn't taking himself too seriously with this novel. People often cite the Darksaber as "one more KJA superweapon", but come on, he treated the thing as a joke from the start. When those two ore-gathering droids destroy each other... yeah. Even though KJA wrote about the unification of the warlords into the Imperial Remnant, which is possibly the most important plot point of the entire post-ROTJ EU, it seemed like he wasn't trying to do much more than have fun and entertain the reader. And hey, what the hell's wrong with that? Wait... a lot was wrong with the book. Crap.

    It got frustrating how often characters unnecessarily explained things to each other, simply for the sake of the reader. And they were all about pretty well-established things in the EU, too. C-3PO gives Han a huge explanation about Nar Shaadda, its cityscape, its shadiness, and that it's called the Smuggler's Moon, to which Han replies "I know, Threepio. I've been there." There are plenty of ways that KJA could have reminded the reader about Nar Shaadda while still maintaining the fast and fun pace of the book. Especially since 3PO and Han were on Nar Shaddaa a bunch of times TWO YEARS AGO in-universe. It didn't irk me as much as "Admiral Daala, are you aware that you're pointing the Ion Cannon at that Star Destroyer?" "Yes." "And are you aware that an ion cannon fires a powerful beam of electricity, neutralizing the systems of any ship it hits?" "Yes." Seriously, KJA? Characters aren't that dumb.

    I'd like to echo Grey1's thoughts about the movie-planet tour by Luke and Callista. It was just mind-bogglingly stupid. Luke wants to return to areas where he's felt the Force strongly --- Dagobah I can live with. But Hoth, because the spirit of Obi-Wan appeared to him there? ... Seriously? The spirit of Obi-Wan also appeared to you on Dagobah... and had a far more comprehensive conversation with you.

    It was great seeing Kyp and the Jedi in action, though. This was the only post-JAT, pre-NJO non-YA novel to feature them in... well, any role at all.
     
  6. beccatoria

    beccatoria Jedi Grand Master star 4

    Registered:
    Dec 8, 2006
    Okay, and....my opinion.

    I will be honest, I do not think this is a good book. As Hydro notes, I led with the actual plot, such as it was, because it was the best thing in the novel. It could potentially have been extremely interesting and there's something I find hilarious about the villain essentially defeating himself because he's too tight to spend enough on his pet project. Similarly, I think I could have found something intriguing in the repeated deaths of Lemelisk given either better prose or a strong explanation for how the whole process was working. But it's not very well executed and the fact it fails to really provide a strong plot-backbone to the rest of the novel hampers it significantly.

    Similarly, there is important stuff happening with the Imperial side of things, but I can't for the life of me work out why these two "bad guy" plots - one of which is potentially very interesting and the other of which is important to the wider EU weren't better integrated. The Hutts and the Empire could have had some really interesting political shenanigans going on, especially around a giant imperial-designed hutt-owned superweapon. But again, poor execution.

    I'll agree with Grey in that I really don't think that it was Luke's fault Callista left - I tend to read her leaving into her own securities about Luke not loving her not his shallowness. That said, I'm not entirely sure I like what that says about Callista either. As Lili notes, there are already some (very likely unintentional) undertones of female=weak/dark. I'll be interested to see what happens in the next book because my very hazy recollection is that I quite liked the character of Callista back under the control of Hambly but here? Not so much. The scene between her and Mara was painful to read. Cus we all know women can't actually get on with each other when there's a man to be jealous over!

    I wish I had something to say about the Han/Leia/Wedge/Ackbar stuff because in theory it was attached to the more interesting plot of the novel, but frankly, I found it very unmemorable.

    My ultimate opinion is that I don't think this book is unmitigatingly awful, simply because it's not memorable enough to be so. It just exists. It's just there. Its primary problem, I think, is the prose for me, because it's the bland, weird and sometimes nonsensical descriptions and poor scene construction that really make it difficult for me to either connect with the text or enjoy the parts of it that were half-decent ideas. With a better writer, I probably would have forgiven the disjointed plot and perhaps even the mountains of Movie Cliches that KJA seems to rely on.

    There were, however, two things I think were unmitigatingly awful and just dragged me out of the novel completely:

    1) RETURN OF THE WAMPA WHUT? I just have no words for how ludicrous this was. I had completely forgotten about this by the time I reread the book and I just... I can't even begin to lay out all the reasons this surreal narrative decision is a clusterfrak of awful.

    2) The weird Force Push A Space Armada thing. Now, this is a little trickier to balance in terms of my response. Because I really do love the moment in ESB where Yoda lifts the X-Wing and says, "size matters not". Because it shouldn't. If you limit the Force that way it becomes too defined. But the other problem is that the while the Force is mystical, it's also...understated and quiet. Those aren't good words but they're the best I have. Perhaps the Force should theoretically be able to allow a group of students to repel a Star Destroyer. But to show it...you have to be careful because if you give your character infinite power, where can plot conflict come from? An achievement of that magnitude, it should be like achieving nirvana; like Ganner Rhysode in his last moments or Jacen Solo at the culmination of the NJO, knowing he's likely never have a moment of such clarity again. When you begin to treat it arbitrarily, like some sort of Super Power Up (which I submit
     
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  7. Jeff_Ferguson

    Jeff_Ferguson Force Ghost star 5

    Registered:
    May 15, 2006
    Interesting note about Callista --- she was originally intended to be a permanent love-interest for Luke, but when KJA was contracted to write Darksaber, Zahn had already been contracted to write Hand of Thrawn under the condition that he got to marry Luke and Mara, so KJA was tasked with removing Callista from the picture. The out-of-nowhere "You can't touch the Force!" at the end of Children may have been a last-minute addition. This was mentioned last month in the Children thread, but I think it's useful info here in light of the Callista-dark side discussion.
     
  8. Jedi Ben

    Jedi Ben Chosen One star 9

    Registered:
    Jul 19, 1999
    re: About that Force Push....

    It always strikes me as somewhat amusing that people consistently overlook a couple of factors in what Dorsk 81 did to hurl 15 Star Destroyers several light years, namely:

    1. It was done using a Sith Temple, which is a massive Force enhancement and amplifier.
    2. It involved Dorsk tapping all the power from the various Jedi students.
    3. He died doing it.

    Therefore, this isn't exactly an easily performed, never mind repeated feat. It's basically death by Force overload, which has only happened once since and that was for Anakin Solo in Star By Star - and it could be argued what Anakin did could be done by others much more easily.

    Had subsequent books had similar feats being done on a regular basis, then I'd understand the complaint that it makes the Jedi too powerful, but there weren't and, because of the conditions set, it doesn't.

    Sure you can say that for in-universe, having done that once, people will think the Jedi can always do it - but if that means no more attacks, then is that so bad? If a bluff isn't called, it's a success.
     
  9. RK_Striker_JK_5

    RK_Striker_JK_5 Force Ghost star 7

    Registered:
    Jul 2, 2003
    Been a long time since I've read this book. But...

    1. ben's beaten me to one point at least. Dorsk 81's Force push has so many asterisks beside it it's almost falling off the page. It is a very... unique event, and he died doing it.

    2. Darksaber... it's an affectionate parody of superweapons! That's all, nothing more. It's Bantamn and the always-awesome KJA laughing at oneself. I love it! :D
     
  10. FTeik

    FTeik Jedi Grand Master star 5

    Registered:
    Nov 7, 2000
    Let me put it this way:

    Had Darksaber been the first SW-novel I've ever read and not HttE, I would have never touched the EU again.

     
  11. JediAlly

    JediAlly Jedi Grand Master star 4

    Registered:
    Oct 31, 2000
    Now we're on to the next part of the Callista trilogy.

    We'll start with the Hutt Darksaber. I wouldn't call this a case of a change of pace or classic Star Wars. Durga was a Hutt and a Black Sun Vigo. While he wanted power, he wanted money even more. He wasn't interested in conquest or ruling the galaxy through fear and an iron fist. He wanted money. So he came up with the idea of building a superweapon in order to extort money or have the planets pay protection money. He used his Black Sun connections to get Lemelisk and that Imperial "general". However, like all Hutts, he was more interested in gaining money rather than spending it. He ran a stingy budget, and that cost him his life.

    Speaking of the "general" - if that's not a case of an actor playing a role that's too big for him, I don't know what is. The only other person who did that was Flim impersonating Thrawn. As for Lemelisk, at the time, I thought Palpatine had somehow devised a means of transferring Lemelisk's soul from one body to another. Now I know about flash programming, but that's besides the point. The point is Lemelisk was a technical genius who had lived a life of fear because of Palpatine. He came to fear not death, but dying and being brought back to life in another clone body with the memories in tact, only to be in danger of dying again.

    As for Han, Leia, Ackbar, Wedge, and the fleet at Nal Hutta, Durga stole the plans for the Death Star. No one steals those on a whim. In addition, both Han and Leia have had experience dealing with Hutts. So by arriving with a fleet so shortly after they "announced their departure from Coruscant" an hour or so before they arrived, they were telling the Hutts, and Durga in particular, in no uncertain terms that they weren't there to negotiate. They weren't there to play games. They weren't going to put up with any nonsense. If the Hutts tried to do anything funny, the NR would finish it. Sounds to me that this was how Thrawn and the Empire of the Hand dealt with nuisances in the Unknown Regions. Had the NR adopted that policy, perhaps it would have survived the Vong War.

    And Threepio, he was more of an annoyance than a help this time. He should have remembered Han has had regular dealings with the Hutts during his smuggler days. Working for them that long, how could Han not know anythnig Threepio knows.

    As for Crix Madine, I was sorry to see him go. He might have been a strict military man, but the NR could definitely have benefitted from his leadership during the NJO.


    Next, Callista. Let me start off with where I stopped last month in the COTJ thread. Cray willingly volunteered to take over controlling the computer on the battlemoon and offered Callista her body. It was an act of love. However, I remember Yoda saying that he wasn't strong enough to evade death. The cycle of life - birth, life, and death - was an integral part of the Force. To go against that would be to go against the way of the Force. An act of the dark side. By transferring her life essence into Cray's body, Callista had embraced the dark side and turned her back against the light. What's worse was she didn't know that was what happened. Nor did she expect that to happen.

    This resulted in her suffering from a severe dose of self-doubt and lack of self-confidence. So Luke wanted to help her regain her connection for her sake, not his. Definitely nothing wrong with that. I think things started to go wrong when they learned on Dagobah that she could use the Force, but only the dark side. Callista was right when she said it wasn't worth the risk and that she'd rather be Force blind than use the dark side. But I think Luke became somewhat obsessive with having her regain her connection to the Force. They had a start, and he wanted to continue. I think one of the reasons why she left was because she knew Luke would want to pursue with their plan, regardless of the consequences. One could say she left to protect him from himself. Another reason was she probably realized this was somet
     
  12. FTeik

    FTeik Jedi Grand Master star 5

    Registered:
    Nov 7, 2000
    It would have made more sense to clone a dozen or hundreds of Bevelisk's from a still sane original and then - if one of those had screwed up - to kill it permanently.
     
  13. beccatoria

    beccatoria Jedi Grand Master star 4

    Registered:
    Dec 8, 2006
    A more complete reply to follow, but just to quickly address Ben's points, I concede I didn't quite use my parenthesis to good effect! I do absolutely concede that you can argue it the other way. And perhaps my point about them doing it every Tuesday is more than slightly glib, for which I apologise. But my point was mainly the point I was trying to make about the rest of the novel: it would be so much more palatable if it was better written.

    I mean, I'm still very hesitant about throwing that level of power around regardless of the ultimate cost because I think even if it out to be theoretically possible, it ought to be permanently out of reach like Nirvana or something. And because I think that throwing a Star Destroyer through astronomically huge space distances, like out of an entire star system really is far larger than anything Anakin or Ganner or Jacen accomplished. It's pulling a ship out of a sun ridiculous (which yes, I also really dislike).

    But a lot of the problem for me was the writing. Like many other parts, I felt like the words were very dry: the sense of the epic, when I read it, just wasn't there. It's a highly personal response and Hydro has done a better job than I at highlighting the parts of the writing which do not appeal to me. But I was left with a disatisfied feeling. I didn't feel I'd just witnessed an epic task and the death of a mighty hero. And that's where my sense of cheapening of the Force comes from, rather than a more easily arguable set of facts. If you don't feel that way, I totally respect that and am, if anything, jealous of you, cus I love when epic things like this happen in stories and I am there in the moment with them. :)
     
  14. Havac

    Havac Former Moderator star 7 VIP - Former Mod/RSA

    Registered:
    Sep 29, 2005
    I'm going to have to go with Hydro here. KJA's prose is astonishingly bad, like soggy bad cheese. It is breathtaking in its badness. I was writing better at ten years old. It would be enough to completely sink the novel on its own, but there's more weight dragging this book down like a sinking wheel of soggy cheese.

    There are actually good ideas hidden in here. Teaming up two antagonists from different authors to create an Imperial Remnant. A criminal building a superweapon that blows up because he cheaped out on parts and labor. A terrifying wampa attack. Having the balls to kill a movie character. But all these ideas are executed in the most inept ways, like soggy, incompetently made cheese. Every attempt to add redeeming value is ruthlessly undercut right away. There's no craftsmanship to the book at all. The only excuse for stuff this utterly incapable of the most rudimentary aspects of narrative writing is if the author is under the age of twelve. Or, you might say, the age of a twelve-year-old log of soggy cheese.

    It's a train wreck the size of a small moon one hundred kilometers in diameter.
     
  15. CooperTFN

    CooperTFN TFN EU Staff Emeritus star 7 VIP

    Registered:
    Jul 8, 1999
    Mmm.....cheese.
     
  16. JediAlly

    JediAlly Jedi Grand Master star 4

    Registered:
    Oct 31, 2000
    A Homer impersonation? What kind of cheesy reaction was that?[face_laugh]
     
  17. Robimus

    Robimus Jedi Grand Master star 5

    Registered:
    Jul 6, 2007
    Prove it.
     
  18. whateveritis12

    whateveritis12 Jedi Knight star 3

    Registered:
    Nov 29, 2008
    God I remember reading this a long time ago. I don't remember much of it so I'm not able to really go through your questions point by point, but I will give my thoughts on what I do remember.

    I thought it was an OK book. Nothing spectacular like Zahn's Bantam stuff, but probably not the worst book you can read.

    I loved the Hutt and his queen with it's little drones. It really seemed like he was going to be a really big threat (and he was, partially in that he at least got his Death Star laser to fire at least once), but I laughed when things went belly up.

    I never really got into the Callista and Luke romance. I thought they were ok, but I was never emotionally invested in a pairing at the time (hadn't read any of Zahn's books, just KJA's, so I didn't really know all that much about Mara). The Wampa attack was pretty good, disregarding what someone said above how implausible the exact same Wampa that attacked Luke in ESB would remember him and have a personal vendetta.

    I don't know about anyone else, but does it seem that KJA writes Kyp better than almost anyone? I thought he did pretty well with the character in the JAT. A kid who didn't have the opportunity to enjoy his teenage years while being enslaved at Kessal. A kid who thinks his whole family's been killed by the Empire (though his parents indirectly). Just the pure joy and competitiveness of him going down the ski hill with Han, to the rage that compelled him to use the Sun Crusher on Carida. Here he has some very good interactions with Dorsk while they're doing their mission, and I think you really see how sad he was at Dorsk dieing at the end (but that might've been a group thing rather than single). Again I don't remember too much, but I do think KJA has Kyp down.

    Like other people have said, while this might not be the best Star Wars book (in fact it's probably somewhere near the bottom), it did create things that were important to the future novels. And who's to say that the creative team at Del Rey didn't get the idea for Yammosks from how KJA used that Queen Monkey and her underlings (whatever they're called).
     
  19. Havac

    Havac Former Moderator star 7 VIP - Former Mod/RSA

    Registered:
    Sep 29, 2005
    Your counterargument in favor of the novel's quality thrills and convinces me.
     
  20. Jedi Ben

    Jedi Ben Chosen One star 9

    Registered:
    Jul 19, 1999
    Hmm, being playful Becc: If an object is moving fast enough, it won't be affected by gravitational fields because the field won't have time to latch on to the object. So the Force Push of those 15 Star Destroyers would only have had to start the kinetic effect, it wouldn't have had to perpetuate it because of vacuum. Did say I was feeling playful.

    Changing tack, what of the Empire here?

    Before we had had the Thrawn trilogy which gave a sense of order and validity to the Imperial viewpoint, with Thrawn deliberately exercising a measure of restraint so as to easily reacquire worlds and resources. In contrast, Daala's plan has nowhere near such finesse, with Star Destroyers assigned to bomb civilian targets for the purpose of terror. Where Thrawn's message was that Imperial order is superior to New Republic democratic chaos Daala's is simply: Obey or die!

    Kind of jarring, no?
     
  21. Zorrixor

    Zorrixor Chosen One star 6

    Registered:
    Sep 8, 2004
    Ah, Palpatine Politics 101.

    "How to rule the Republic in two simple steps, by Messrs Palpatine and Daala. 1: Inspire fear. 2: Get elected."

    [image=http://www.shopbamboozled.com/MEERKAT_REAL.jpg]
     
  22. AdmiralNick22

    AdmiralNick22 Retired Fleet Admiral star 6 VIP - Former Mod/RSA

    Registered:
    May 28, 2003
    What, no one wants to discuss the MC90 Galactic Voyager vs. the SSD Knight Hammer?

    While this ship to ship battle has inspired numerous debates, I would like to point out that the Galactic Voyager was equipped with the New Republic's most advanced and top secret shielding system.

    The Character Shield. [face_beatup]

    I don't care how many guns Daala turned on the GV. The ship was projecting the combined character shield of Chief of State Leia Organa Solo, General Han Solo, and NRDF Supreme Commander Admiral Ackbar. 8-}

    All in all, this book doesn't stand the test of time very well. It does have some very good nuggets in it, plus it was written at a time when the Expanded Universe was still in it's formative stages. I know that many people do not like KJA's prose or writing style, but let's not forget the following:

    He created the Imperial Remnant.

    He made Pellaeon the leader of the Empire.

    He created the New Jedi Order, including most of it's current Masters.

    He was the first to kill a movie character.

    Whether you like him or not, his stuff went on to form the bedrock of large portions of the EU.

    --Adm. Nick
     
    Gamiel likes this.
  23. Jeff_Ferguson

    Jeff_Ferguson Force Ghost star 5

    Registered:
    May 15, 2006
    December 20, 1994! Take that!

    When Daala gassed the warlords, I wanted to cheer and high-five her. There was something so... simplistically awesome about her "This is how we reunite the Empire" strategy. Possibly the only intelligent thing she's ever done.

    Kyp's characterization in Darksaber was the perfect followup to the JAT. We saw him matured and slightly sobered from his genocidal/possessed experiences, yet still with lingering and fiery hate of Daala. This book got me pumped to see him continue to mature throughout the rest of the New Republic period... but then it turned out that the rest of the New Republic period had no Jedi. [face_plain]
     
  24. Jedi Ben

    Jedi Ben Chosen One star 9

    Registered:
    Jul 19, 1999
    One area where KJA failed for me was in how he described Star Destroyers, they sounded like fighter craft - when they're massive capital ships, I just couldn't buy into Star Destrpyers zipping around from place to place raising hell. Had the writing style been different, it would have been some horrific sequences of planetary bombardment.
     
  25. CooperTFN

    CooperTFN TFN EU Staff Emeritus star 7 VIP

    Registered:
    Jul 8, 1999
    For what it's worth, I thought DS was the best of all the KJA/Hambly novels. Spectacular, no, but at least the pinnacle of their efforts.

    I mean, it's not like this is Crystal Star we're talking about.

    Related note after following that link - "Sedriss QL"? The hell is that about?
     
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