[3SA] The 3SA and new users

The problem is Bob, that you can't really use 3NS as an example of what will happen. The two communities are vastly different in the make-up and wants from each other. 3NS worked well with what they have because it isn't a leading forum on the boards, and the discussions there are usually decently well-thought out because you are speculating purely on prior material and conjecture, rather than everyone trying to piece together this large jigsaw puzzle from pieces that might or might not be true. The size of the respective communities is also vastly different.

I'm not trying to protect the "go crazy" mentality that a lot of people seem to have. There is a reason that I haven't posted in the spoiler forums since it was PSA (with one or two individual thread exceptions) so many years ago. But the problems that exist with the forum aren't purely the result of the number of people flooding in each day. This arguement has been brought up all the time over the last few years, and it is wrong. Matters aren't helped by them, but they aren't the root cause of it. Hell, many of the people that are "respected members" of the RotS forum were the kind of people that this thread was created to complain about back when they started.

The solution to the problem isn't to shut the doors and say we'll only let you read this place and post when we decide to give you access. It might be a solution that would solve certain problems that exist, but it would be the wrong solution for the forum as a whole, and these boards.

Case in point, you say that "This solves redundancy, cuts down on spamming, and filters trolls". Well, I certainly agree to an extent with the last on in that you won't have those who create multiple names and cause problems that way. But you aren't going to prevent those 'trolls' that are a little bit smarter and enjoy what they are doing more. But in no way is shutting out open access to the forum going to solve the problems of redundancy and spamming. Nothing that can be done in a closed forum to combat these cannot be done now. Redundant threads can be locked just as well now as they would be in there; spamming can be deleted; and users that continue to practice both can find themselves paying the price for doing those by encountering the ban screen when they try and access the site. Just because they would have to give lip service to following the rules when asking for access to a private version in no way makes them any less accountable right now. Every time you register, log in and post on these forums you do so with the knowledge that you have to follow the rules of these forums, regardless of whether or not you have actually read them. If you don't, you have no one to blame but yourself, and the moderators are perfectly within their rights to take any and all action against someone who spams, creates redundant threads, trolls, or breaks any of the forum rules. All of them are easily accessible at the top of the forum, and the only way that people will not continue to do this is for the moderators to do their assigned job on these forums - public or private, it makes no difference - and deal with these infractions as required. If a person continues to cause problems, then they face the consequences of their actions, and have to live with it. A moderators job in cleaning up a forum isn't to be liked while doing it, but to ensure that everyone who is reading and posting in the discussions can do so without other people causing disruptions. If it is that the RotS moderators need to do what they seem to have a bit of an aversion to and really crack down on matters, then that is what they have to do. It has been done by many other moderating teams in the past (and not all of them liked having to do it, but it was what was required of them) and bite the bullet to do what is in the best interest of their forum.

But turning the place into an exclusive club that will destroy continuing traffic to the forums and main site is not in the best interest of the site, or the site owners (who the moderators represen

 

I completely understand where you are coming from. I believe that the problem of uniformed, unintentionally redudnant threads is a major one that needs looked at. I think clear rules and resources are available in order to prevent these problems, but I do not believe that they are being used to their fullest extent.

You point out that the Official Threads and other important threads are linked to in the header, yet dozens of redundant threads are started a day where people simply say they "Didn't see it" or "Didn't realize it had already been covered. People can't see the Official Threads, they don't know how or where to search, they don't know the difference between 3SA and the JCC, and many don't understand when their threads are locked and redirected. Yes, amny are trolls, but there are a LOT that are simply innocent newbies that don't know any better.

I'm saying that there needs to be a much more visable way for new users to know where to discuss things, how to look for existing topics and where topics should be posted in the first place.

The mods do a fine job, but at any forum it eventually becomes a matter of treating the source of the problem rather than the symptoms. At some point we have to stop worrying about a user having to read 30 seconds worth of direction and leaving out of frustration. We need to be worried about doing what is best for the long-term visitors as well as the newbies.

 

I've read through everything and most has been said. As Dingo said, lots of those creating problems aren't genuine new users but returning trolls on big IP's we can't do anything about. They get a thrill out of being a problem. As mods, the best we can do is be quick to handle it because unless we go to everyone's individual home and stop them when they're typing, there will always be this problem.

As far as our help threads, now that we're getting closer to the film's release we can take some threads and make them sticky threads. I've seen a lot of good come from our contact list of mods who can help in the 3SA when we're not online. So I'll change some of the other threads into sticky threads. Please keep the suggestions coming.

 

Interesting discussion. The 3SA mods always welcome input from the user's of 3SA.

As has already been stated, with the best will in the world, we will never be able to stop people posting redundant threads/spamming/trolling on 3SA. What we can do, is make it less likely that they would want to post redundant threads/spam/troll, by doing two things:

1. Locking redundant threads as soon as possible and where appropriate banning. That's down to us mods, and thats why we have 6 mods on 3SA currently, as well as many more who help out as and when needed.

2. Not encouraging serial trolls (as Sape has pointed out, very often redundancy/spamming/trolling comes from the same people coming back under socks) by as far as possible igonoring their threads and post's. I know when someone is out and out trolling it's very tempting to bring them to task (I've done it myself before I was a mod) but by and large these people are attention seekers and they like nothing better than to think they are derailing 3SA by you getting into a confrontation with them. Your response is the reason they posted that redundant thread, flame, trolling post, etc.... In the first place.

Also, there are genuine newbies, who have seen the trailer, for instance, thought it looked cool and want to discuss it with us. In their excitement they don't think of forum etiquette, look for Official Threads, etc... Again, we can't stop these genuine case's, but we can hopefully cut them down, by making the Official Threads thread a sticky at the top of the page.

There are no easy answers to this, I'm afraid. But hopefully together we can make it work, as 3SA heads towards the climax of Star Wars.

 

This place shouldn't be the go to for morons registering just to post their wacky new theory on Palpatine being a clone of Sidious.

Someone with some patience go through the first 3 pages of the 3SA and see what percentage of posts are created by Nov '04s. Better yet, see what percentage of locked threads are created by Nov '04s.

Registering for Posting Access for the 3SA is in no way an exclusive club.

 

EDIT: FYI, I didn't have time to read through this whole thread so some/all of what I've said may've already been discussed. Sorry if this is redundant.

The 3SA... you'll never find a more retched hive of scum and villainy.

In all seriousness though, lately that forum has been a mess when it comes to new threads. It's not the mods fault; they are almost always right on top of things. The 3SA mod staff is great.

However there are just too many new threads being created that are redundant, off-topic or just plain stupid. I don't post very often, but I've been lurking in the (2 / 3)SA since 2001. I've never, EVER been frustrated with posts on an internet messageboard until the last few weeks in the 3SA. I guess that shows how annoying it's been there lately.

Is there any way that new users could be restricted to "Read-only" access to the 3SA for their first week or 2? It sure would make that place a lot more enjoyable to visit and contribute in.

That's just my $0.02 though.

 

There is no way in terms of board code to let them be read-only. Realize that lots of new users aren't new users at all. And the 3SA has such a huge population of actual posters and lurkers from around the world that we simply can't make it private or a forum where you need to register. We just have to react as quickly as we can to problems.

 

There is no way in terms of board code to let them be read-only.

Maybe I'm missing something, but I know that many users have "read-only" access to the 3NS (myself included). Though this system may not currently be coded for it, I would bet that with a little tweaking a feature could be implemented to limit newly registered users to 'read-only' access to a specific forum.

Maybe the access would have to be manually changed but after being registered for a couple weeks the new user could post a request in another forum to have access (like the 3NS currently does). If trolls had to wait 2 weeks for such access, I'm sure that most wouldn't even bother going through the steps.

I'm not an expert when it comes to coding, but I do know a thing or 2 about web development and I bet that this could be done.

 

We don't have board code access as mods. So the forum is read-only or it isn't as opposed to setting it up that way for individual users. I can do it by making the 3SA a private forum and one-by-one letting in people to post.

 

I can do it by making the 3SA a private forum and one-by-one letting in people to post.

Heh, I wouldn't wish that job on my worst enemy.

I thought 'zerosleep' took care of all the coding. Has anyone ever requested this feature to him?

 

No, we haven't done that. All of this spoiler stuff is over in literally a few months. Also, as an experiment, we did make the 3SA private once. It lasted a few hours and it was a nightmare. So we'll continue to IP ban where we can and react quickly to all problems. In other words, we'll have to take them ship-to-ship.

 

Sape, having a 3SA invitation to post would be a nightmare. One by one saying you can post, the next one can't. 3SA is probably the most popular next to JCC and yes we're going to have noobs who post in redudancy. How many times did I as well as many other 3SA posters, redirect these noobs to older posts? It doesn't take that long to type a few keywords in a search box to avoid redundancy. I know it's impossible, but if noobs were restricted to a forum designed for noobs for a while, maybe they'd learn. Technically it's impossible, but IMO the best thing to do is what we're all doing; mods and other posters included together. Redirect and delete redudancy.

 

We just have to react as quickly as we can to problems.

Why not be more aggressive and ban the idiots whose first post is a new thread?

 

How do you know we didn't ban them? And why should we ban in every case? As a regular user you simply do not know what action, if any, was or has ever been taken. We don't ban someone off one redundant thread unless it's a trend, a banned troll, or we're privy to some admin information about this user that warrants disciplinary action.

 

The best and easiest solution is to make sure new users know about the Official Threads and the Search function, as well as the rules regarding redundancy and posting in the proper forum. IT sounds like Sape is working on a stikie or two, so hopefully it should be taken care of.

 

As far as our help threads, now that we're getting closer to the film's release we can take some threads and make them sticky threads. I've seen a lot of good come from our contact list of mods who can help in the 3SA when we're not online. So I'll change some of the other threads into sticky threads. Please keep the suggestions coming.


How about a sticky thread dedicated to the new users. It can be entitled "You Must Read This Thread." In it we can "advise" new users to wait a couple of days before posting their own topics. Just so they can see how the forum works and to prevent redundant topics. We can either link to the "official threads" thread or combine it into this new thread so that they can see what topics are redundant. We can ask them to post any questions they might have in the thread or ask them to pm us if there's a problem. Basically restate general policy in every forum in case they do not visit the welcome new users forum. It would at least be helpful to the actual new users and give the trolls little excuse.

 

I edited dehrian's Guide to Better Posting and made it into a long-term sticky thread.

 

HLAS - great idea. Get typing!

 

"How about a sticky thread dedicated to the new users. It can be entitled "You Must Read This Thread." In it we can "advise" new users to wait a couple of days before posting their own topics. Just so they can see how the forum works and to prevent redundant topics."

You can't force anybody to read that thread, and most people aren't going to read it on their own accord. There has to be a better solution, such as having a "three strike" policy or something along those lines. Basically, a new user would be forgiven the first time they post redundantly, would be reminded the second time, and if a third offense occurs with a short period of time, they are banned.
The problem with that is that it might make new users leave. But then again, if someone can't learn the first or second time, do you really want them posting here?

 

You can't force anybody to read that thread, and most people aren't going to read it on their own accord. There has to be a better solution, such as having a "three strike" policy or something along those lines. Basically, a new user would be forgiven the first time they post redundantly, would be reminded the second time, and if a third offense occurs with a short period of time, they are banned.
The problem with that is that it might make new users leave. But then again, if someone can't learn the first or second time, do you really want them posting here?

We already have a system like that in place. If a user is a problem the mod deals with them.

However, that is dealing with the symptoms. I think the biggest problem 3SA has had for a long time is having the rules and expectations in difficult to find places, forcing people to learn the hard way, usually leading to ridicule and off-topic posting.

Making the rules and official threads easily available and much more visible will go a long way towards helping the forum in the long run, I think.

 

But somedays I do think about what it would be like to have a suspension on thread postings for people who just registered.

I asked Josh about that before I became a mod. He said the code didn't allow it. So, while I too like the idea, it's not possible.

We do have a search function that they all refuse to use, probably because they don't see it or "don't see it" and would like to have a big long thread with THEIR name on the front page all day.

A search function which is not really functional for that purpose. You'd have to spell something exactly the way another poster had. And considering people seem to have trouble spelling things correctly, particularly character names, it's really not useful for cutting down on redundant threads.

 

We can give new users every tool, advice, sticky thread, and help in the world to help them succeed. It all comes down to whether or not they want to succeed, personal choice, accountability, and intent. As mods, we can only do so much and then we're forced to deal with these threads. We can't stop them entirely.

 

Exactly. Fortunately I think the stickies are going a long way towards that goal. It may not work, but there's not much more that can reasonably be done in a proactive sense.

 

Alright, Hook recreated the official threads and G-FETT will be recreating his thread for helping to reduce redundant threads. In a bit, I'll have dehrian recreate the one I created today so it's not my name on all the sticky threads.

 

"We can give new users every tool, advice, sticky thread, and help in the world to help them succeed. It all comes down to whether or not they want to succeed, personal choice, accountability, and intent. As mods, we can only do so much and then we're forced to deal with these threads. We can't stop them entirely."

That is probably the most intelligent statement I have ever seen on these boards. Sape you hit the nail dead on the head. But if an administrator didn't know exactly what a mod is supposed to do, I'd be worried.

The new threads are clearer and easier to follow. We need more organized sticky threads across the boards; not just in 3SA. Some of them haven't been updated in months and are out of date.