main
side
curve
  1. In Memory of LAJ_FETT: Please share your remembrances and condolences HERE

55 ways to improve "The Phantom Menace"

Discussion in 'Archive: The Phantom Menace' started by Ree Yees, Jul 16, 2003.

Thread Status:
Not open for further replies.
  1. rpeugh

    rpeugh Force Ghost star 4

    Registered:
    Apr 10, 2002
    Loco, there is no writing in the world that would have made leaving his mother at age 17 emotional. It wasnt a cheap gimmick. It was just the right thing to do. Having him cry like a hobbit, now THAT would have been a cheap gimmick.
     
  2. Loco_for_Lucas

    Loco_for_Lucas Jedi Grand Master star 5

    Registered:
    Aug 15, 2002
    Loco, there is no writing in the world that would have made leaving his mother at age 17 emotional. It wasnt a cheap gimmick. It was just the right thing to do. Having him cry like a hobbit, now THAT would have been a cheap gimmick.


    Thank the maker for dimensionality; fortunately, the Hobbits show that a character doesn't have to be ten years old for things to matter to a great degree. Apparently that's a notion George Lucas can't grasp too well. ;)

     
  3. Go-Mer-Tonic

    Go-Mer-Tonic Jedi Youngling star 6

    Registered:
    Aug 22, 1999
    Were the Hobbits shown being separated from their mother?
     
  4. Loco_for_Lucas

    Loco_for_Lucas Jedi Grand Master star 5

    Registered:
    Aug 15, 2002
    Making him 9 years old was a device used to add more sympathy to the situation.


    That right there is the key word, "sympathy." He was trying to go for sympathy, rather than relation. The audience would "sympathize" for a little boy leaving his mother, but an audience would relate to a teen leaving his mother, add to that her being the only person he's ever known and him not knowing her fate, it's just as emotionally impactful and conceptually loaded, if not MORE, than a little Muppet crying about his mother. Lucas chose to forego any and all complexity that comes with interesting characterization for the sake of a one-shot moment where the audience goes "Awwww."

    As I said, the same separation where Anakin is 17 just wouldn't be the same. Anakin would be old enough to really take care of himself at that point. At 9 years old, he is still very reliant on his mother for security and acceptance.

    Lucas was skilled enough to know he needed to be much younger than 17 for that kind of punch.


    The character was still going to fall the Dark Side though, so instead of it being as a result of poor lil Ani being the victim of fate and circumstance, he would have been behind his own choice to fall to the Dark Side. Instead of the blame for his falling to the Dark Side falling on his separation from his mother, it would be on HIM as he made the choices himself that resulted in falling. As it stands now, his fall and his decisions that LEAD to the fall are completely undermined, as he now has this psychological hang-up about him that somehow "admonishes" him of any real responsibility. He didn't lust for power, he was a child torn from his mother. Darth Vader isn't the Dark twisted creature inside us all, he's the vulnerable little child inside that can't stand the world around him, and all because of a cheap gimmick.

    Were the Hobbits shown being separated from their mother?


    Ask rp, he seems to be under the notion no one under the age of 16 is allowed to cry anymore. ;)
     
  5. JohnWilliams00

    JohnWilliams00 Jedi Padawan star 4

    Registered:
    Jan 29, 2002
    Loco, there is no writing in the world that would have made leaving his mother at age 17 emotional. It wasnt a cheap gimmick. It was just the right thing to do. Having him cry like a hobbit, now THAT would have been a cheap gimmick.

    There have been countless moments in other movies where two characters seperate that have worked, regardless of age. I don't believe you actually think it must be a child for it to work. Some "farewell" scenes could be between an adult and a child, sometimes a teen and a parent, and sometimes two adults. It doesn't matter. I'll give you that it is entirely possible to have a painful seperation between a child (like Jake's age) and a mother, but it's not the only way it could be done.

    And I personally loved the farewell scene between Gandalf and Bilbo early on in FOTR. "Goodbye old friend." Good acting and the right dialogue can go a long way.
     
  6. Go-Mer-Tonic

    Go-Mer-Tonic Jedi Youngling star 6

    Registered:
    Aug 22, 1999
    They were making a point about his getting attatched to his mother. It simply wouldn't have worked as well if he were older.

    I don't see how anyone wouldn't be able to relate to this dynamic. We can all remember back to when we were young enough to rely on our parents for security and acceptance.

    How else would you have done this?
     
  7. Loco_for_Lucas

    Loco_for_Lucas Jedi Grand Master star 5

    Registered:
    Aug 15, 2002
    Tell that to my cousin, the day he left for the Marines, he and his mother were holding each other and sobbing like it was the last time they would ever see each other. It wasn't an asinine scene either, it was legimately moving. As John said, a ten year old being taken from his mother is a powerful image, but it isn't the only image. To believe so it to limit your scope significantly, and it's a sign of Lucas' weak writing abilities.
     
  8. Darth_Sillyname

    Darth_Sillyname Jedi Padawan star 4

    Registered:
    Oct 7, 2000
    I've said it before and I'll say it again now that's it brought back into the discussion:

    Make Anakin 14 instead of 9. Not 17 or 18.
    Make Padmé a bit older, like 16.

    I think that this way Anakin is still young enough to be disturbed when he leaves his mother, but he's also old enough to be a bit interested in girls, fly spaceships (at least more believable than when he's 9), and show some teenage anger and resentment.
    Also it could make the transition to the older Anakin in episode 2 easier.

    He would be young enough to appeal to the kids, and old enough not to annoy the older fans too much.

    I remember the 'casting call' that went out when they made TPM.
    Anakin was supposed to be the kind of kid every boy wanted to be.
    But when I was 9 I wanted to be a 20 year old heroic Luke Skywalker, not a 9 year old chosen one/accidental hero.
    But that's just me ;)
     
  9. JohnWilliams00

    JohnWilliams00 Jedi Padawan star 4

    Registered:
    Jan 29, 2002
    They were making a point about his getting attatched to his mother. It simply wouldn't have worked as well if he were older.

    But I don't agree that a teenager can not be as attached to his mother if he were a teen. Maybe this is more of a American or Western point of view (don't worry, I am American too, so I'm not picking on you here ;)), but maybe the movies or The Lifetime movie channel has perpetuated the image of the moody or distant teen who barely speaks to his parents at the age of 16. This is NOT true everywhere. And if there's something that Star Wars does right, it's that it doesn't simply lean on ethnocentric point of views, but borrows inspiration from many different cultures. Arguably, one would find more sons and daughters in other parts of the world(especially if they only have one parent) to grow more attached as they get older.

    And Loco_for_Lucas has a great example. In relation to that, I saw a film where a French soldier finds out his mother is dying of illness, but he becomes drafted into the war and must leave her behind. The first part cements their relationship -- he would fetch her slippers and bring her tea, and they would have long chats about everything, while some old records play in the background. In the farewell scene, he sits by her bedside and clutches her hand and promises to see her once again. But when he returns, she is gone. There is no more poignant image then to see him sitting next to an empty bed where his mother used to be, but this time there is no one to speak to.

    This is one of many exmaples of how it could effectively work. I can pull examples from some of Lucas' inspirations, like David Lean or Kurosawa. Or even the latest episode of The Gilmore Girls. (okay, I don't watch that).
     
  10. Strilo

    Strilo Manager Emeritus star 8 VIP - Former Mod/RSA

    Registered:
    Aug 6, 2001
    The way I look at it, this is what George wanted. He did not want Anakin to be 17. He did not want to create a scene with a grown person leaving another grown person. He wanted Anakin to be a child. It is his story to tell and I personally have no issue whatsoever with Anakin's age.

    I do also think that comparing SW to LOTR is really lame. How can you expect Lucas to live up to Tolkien? LOTR is one of the most read books of all time and is considered to be a great literary achievement. How can anyone think it's fair to compare a fun space opera action adventure saga to one of the greatest literary achievements of the 20th Century? It's like comparing the new Foo Fighters album to the work of the Beatles.

     
  11. Loco_for_Lucas

    Loco_for_Lucas Jedi Grand Master star 5

    Registered:
    Aug 15, 2002
    As much as I love LOTR, it's not the great literary masterpiece it is made out to be. As an English major, the Tolkien works are looked down upon as the comic book fare of the literary world. It would be like comparing the character Spiderman to Hamlet.

    Personally, I think they're great books, and the opinions of the "established literary community" (whatever that is) shouldn't matter, but it's feasible to say that LOTR doesn't have universal appeal either. :)
     
  12. anidanami124

    anidanami124 Jedi Master star 6

    Registered:
    Aug 24, 2002
    As much as I love LOTR, it's not the great literary masterpiece it is made out to be. As an English major, the Tolkien works are looked down upon as the comic book fare of the literary world. It would be like comparing the character Spiderman to Hamlet.

    What I don't care what an English mayor who may or may not like has to says. The LOTR books are the must sold books right after the Bible. No book other then the Bible holds that place. And it can't hold that place if it was not a literary masterpiece.
     
  13. Loco_for_Lucas

    Loco_for_Lucas Jedi Grand Master star 5

    Registered:
    Aug 15, 2002
    I agree, it doesn't matter what stuffy pricks with ties think, but I'm just saying it doesn't have the universal appeal we like to think it does. I think it's one of the best fantasy pieces ever written.
     
  14. Strilo

    Strilo Manager Emeritus star 8 VIP - Former Mod/RSA

    Registered:
    Aug 6, 2001
    And you compare a piece of that magnitude with a action adventure pulp fiction movie saga?

     
  15. anidanami124

    anidanami124 Jedi Master star 6

    Registered:
    Aug 24, 2002
    I agree, it doesn't matter what stuffy pricks with ties think, but I'm just saying it doesn't have the universal appeal we like to think it does. I think it's one of the best fantasy pieces ever written.

    Loco when it is the must sold book in literary hitsory right after the bible I would very much say it has universal appeal.
     
  16. ShaneP

    ShaneP Ex-Mod Officio star 7 VIP - Former Mod/RSA

    Registered:
    Mar 26, 2001
    I remember the 'casting call' that went out when they made TPM.
    Anakin was supposed to be the kind of kid every boy wanted to be.
    But when I was 9 I wanted to be a 20 year old heroic Luke Skywalker, not a 9 year old chosen one/accidental hero.
    But that's just me.


    Well said Sillyname. :)

    Loco is right about the LOTR reputation in literary circles. My former Lit professor, also an Oxford grad and member of the Science Fiction Fantasy Writers of America(SFFWA)member, told us stories about how Tolkein's books were regarded well, but not as much as say, Isaac Assmiov's Foundation saga or the writings of E.E. Smith. Some were downright critical of his writing style.

    My professor also disliked most American "literature" too and thought Kubrick's 2001 was prententious and overrated.

    There you go. LOL.
     
  17. Go-Mer-Tonic

    Go-Mer-Tonic Jedi Youngling star 6

    Registered:
    Aug 22, 1999
    I am not saying Anakin had to be 9, I just think it works the best that way. I really like the way the SW saga starts when Anakin is so young, and follows his life until he dies in ROTJ.
     
  18. SLAVE2

    SLAVE2 Jedi Knight star 5

    Registered:
    Apr 6, 2000
    He did not want Anakin to be 17. He did not want to create a scene with a grown person leaving another grown person.

    Exactly. Anking leaving Shmi at 17-18 would be seen as 'normal', people would be like "whats the big deal?". Whereas a 10 year old still needs his mother and leaving her is a major thing, it affects the rest of his life.
     
  19. rpeugh

    rpeugh Force Ghost star 4

    Registered:
    Apr 10, 2002
    >>>>>>>>>>In relation to that, I saw a film where a French soldier finds out his mother is dying of illness, but he becomes drafted into the war and must leave her behind.<<<<<<<<<<<<<

    I would compare that more to AOTC where Shmi dies, not to TPM where Anakin leaves Shmi. And the big issue as Gomer says is security and acceptance.

    Let me ask you guys this: Should David have been an 18 year old in A.I.?
     
  20. Loco_for_Lucas

    Loco_for_Lucas Jedi Grand Master star 5

    Registered:
    Aug 15, 2002
    You're actually helping to prove a point by bringing up AI. That sweeping across points in life is not necessary. We didn't need to see David as an adult (if he was capable of somehow aging) because that aspect of his life is not of consequence. The important part of his life was that as a child, it's the part of the story of interest. Compare that to Darth Vader/Anakin Skywalker, whose interesting part of life happens in the late teens. We didn't need to see David as an adult, and we didn't need to see Anakin as a child.
     
  21. Loco_for_Lucas

    Loco_for_Lucas Jedi Grand Master star 5

    Registered:
    Aug 15, 2002
    Exactly. Anking leaving Shmi at 17-18 would be seen as 'normal', people would be like "whats the big deal?". Whereas a 10 year old still needs his mother and leaving her is a major thing, it affects the rest of his life.


    Yeah, nothing's more normal than going off to reach your full potential while your mother stays behind as a slave...
     
  22. Loco_for_Lucas

    Loco_for_Lucas Jedi Grand Master star 5

    Registered:
    Aug 15, 2002
    Loco when it is the must sold book in literary hitsory right after the bible I would very much say it has universal appeal.


    Actually, the most sold book in the world after the Bible is John Bunyan's
    The Pilgrim's Progress
    .
     
  23. Go-Mer-Tonic

    Go-Mer-Tonic Jedi Youngling star 6

    Registered:
    Aug 22, 1999
    I have yet to see any examples of how this could have been done better. I explained why the emotional impact of Anakin's separation from his mother relies on his being younger, and so far all I get in response is: A skilled writer could have done as well with a 14-17 year old Anakin.

    I don't see how.

    Perhaps you could show all of us "unskilled people" how a "skilled" writer would do it.
     
  24. Loco_for_Lucas

    Loco_for_Lucas Jedi Grand Master star 5

    Registered:
    Aug 15, 2002
    *ahem*

    The first part cements their relationship -- he would fetch her slippers and bring her tea, and they would have long chats about everything, while some old records play in the background. In the farewell scene, he sits by her bedside and clutches her hand and promises to see her once again. But when he returns, she is gone. There is no more poignant image then to see him sitting next to an empty bed where his mother used to be, but this time there is no one to speak to.

    This is one of many exmaples of how it could effectively work. I can pull examples from some of Lucas' inspirations, like David Lean or Kurosawa. Or even the latest episode of The Gilmore Girls. (okay, I don't watch that).


     
  25. Go-Mer-Tonic

    Go-Mer-Tonic Jedi Youngling star 6

    Registered:
    Aug 22, 1999
    I don't understand. He gets her slippers, then suddenly she's gone?

    How does that pack more emotional punch than a 9 year old being freed from the slavery his mother cannot be freed from, only to return 10 years later to find he was too late to be able to save his mother from the Tusken torture?

    I'm trying to work with you here, but so far, I just don't see how that's better.
     
Thread Status:
Not open for further replies.