55 ways to improve "The Phantom Menace"

---

[b]Amanamans_staff:[/b] Someone help me out. I don't understand why, if the prophecy was always intended to be a part of the saga, there was no mention of it in the OT.[hr][/blockquote]Because everyone who knows about the prophecy gives up on it when the chosen one helps to all but eliminate the Jedi Order. As you can tell by the way Obi-Wan has given up on Anakin and thinks the only way to win is to kill Anakin, they think the prophecy is all a big crock by then. While the prophecy is not talked about in the classic trilogy it does end up coming true.[blockquote][hr][b]Amanamans_staff:[/b] Also, the virgin birth is something I just could not imagine happening in the OT. It would have stuck out like a sore thumb.[hr][/blockquote]But that's the point, he is supposed to stick out like a sore thumb even in the prequels, because he is the chosen one. That's the point of giving him a fatastic origin.[blockquote][hr][b]Amanamans_staff:[/b] This is what I mean when I say a simple (Ok, maybe not so simple!) story of a good man turned bad would have resounded better when you look at the saga as a whole.[hr][/blockquote]I think it is more powerful to have this chosen one thought of as their salvation, only to be shown that he ends up being their most formidable enemy, only to have the whole thing turned back around to what the prophecy fore-told at the very end. To me, that is a very emotionally striking way to do it.[blockquote][hr][b]Amanamans_staff:[/b] When watching the original trilogy I didn't see some quasi-religious mythology, I saw something new and indefinable that was the mythology of Star Wars.[hr][/blockquote]Well, you are one of the very few who didn't see the religious parallells in the classic trilogy. It has been interpereted by many religions as representative of themselves, from Bhudists, to Christians, many people have drawn symbolic parallells to their own teachings.[blockquote][hr][b]Amanamans_staff:[/b] For me personally, the themes introduced in TPM threw the saga off-course, and had us wondering about a strange prophecy that was hinted at but never really explained.[hr][/blockquote]Then Lucas did his job corectly. It makes you wonder until you see how it actually ends up playing out at the end of ROTJ.[blockquote][hr][b]Amanamans_staff:[/b] And the groans that went round my local cinema at the revelation of the immaculate conception were far louder than any heckling Jar-Jar got. [hr][/blockquote]Are you sure about that? I think this is one of the coolest things about the prequels, is the way it sets up the events in the classic trilogy.

It's all interconnected. Once more people start to look at it as one big 6 film story, it will make more sense. But as long as people think of them as 2 separate stories, it will probably seem out of place to them.

 

These are not weak reasons for Anakin to turn into Vader. They are actually very strong reasons because these are deep subconcious psycological issues that everybody goes through. This is perfect because WE are Darth Vader.
- I doubt everybody would become a mass murdering maniac...

I have never regarded SW as a real new mythology.
IMO it's just a good story. It has some parallels with myths. We all know the whole hero's journey thing. How do you define a mythology anyway? Who's the judge on what is a mythology and what's not? It's more like a Hollywood mythology.
I think at some point fans started to blow it all out of proportion, and Lucas started to believe it himself.
Too bad it's been done to death in many fantasy and sci-fi stories and series and movies. It's become a cliché.

One of the worst thing about it is that none of the chosen one/balance of the force stuff is needed to explain anything in the saga. If Anakin had simply been strong with the Force everything would have still made sense.
Yeah sure, with some rationilizations you can make the whole thing fit with everything and the OT, and some fans prefer it that way, but it also works without it.

Back to ways to improve TPM:
- Provide some comic relief with the main characters: what they say, what happens to them. Simple things like in the OT.
Instead of relying so much on slapstick Jar Jar. The other characters were often too stiff and too serious. Even 'serious' characters can get involved in something funny every now and then - it worked in AOTC. It's a Star Wars movie after all.

 

Amanamans_staff: When watching the original trilogy I didn't see some quasi-religious mythology, I saw something new and indefinable that was the mythology of Star Wars

Ok... wow. I have to remind you that there are other religions out there besides Christianity. The influence of Eastern religion on the older SW films is very obvious. The Force itself is derived from Hindu beliefs. Do some research and you will find LOADS of "quasi-religious" mythology in the older films.

 

But its more than that. Its clear from the AOTC there's more to his fall than wanting lots of power.

But it could have easily been that, and it would have been just as good, the psychobabble about "separation of mother" isn't necessary at all. The character was to fall regardless, and what we did get in the Prequels was needless complication to what could have been a simple story of a man falling from grace.

 

Seemed pretty important to me. Which is it, you want there to be a simplistic reason for his fall, or a meaty complicated one? I think it's better this way.

 

The loss of Shmi feuls Anakin's desire for more power, and gives us a chance to sympathise with him while understanding what he does to the Tusken's is wrong. I don't see what harm it does at all, and why making his fall simpler betters the storyline at all. Would ANH have been better had Owen and Beru not been killed and Luke just decided to go and join the Rebellion one day? I doubt it.

 

Its in his mother that he desire for power comes, he wants to be able to stop people from dieing.

 

I doubt everybody would become a mass murdering maniac...

Wow, what a predictable retort *rolls eyes*

Maybe not but you could do what he did and make bad decisions, and ultimately choose to live your life the wrong way.
Just as doing as Luke did would mean you would go the other way.

And thats the crux of the Star Wars saga, seeing how thin the line between good and evil is, and how it can easily be crossed by the decisions made by people.

I think not only is it important to see how someone can avoid evil, but how someone...anyone can become evil themselves.

Good thing Lucas believed the same thing.

 

>>>>>>> I doubt everybody would become a mass murdering maniac<<<<<<<<<<<<<<

No,not in a civilized system where people are shackled by our laws, but Im sure most people want power like Anakin does. How many people have you talked to who want to be a doctor for the money? I have talked to many. IT is the power they crave, not just the knowledge that they get from it and the fascination with helping other people. Power is what motivates me and a lot of my other friends in going to college. Look at the people that we idolize. Why do you think we idolize Michael Jordan? Is it because he is a nice guy? Well, even though he certainly isnt a thug, I think we idolize him because of his power.

Also, it is my belief that if people had the power, and if they werent shackled by the laws of our civilized system, they would indeed become mass murdering maniacs. And Darth Vader had that kind of power. He was not shackled by those types of laws once he chose the darkside.

 

If that is in every man and woman, the "Darth Vader represents the evil in us all" argument, that shows how unnecessary his being seen as a child truly is. He was going to fall regardless, if it wasn't because of his mother, it would have been through a lust of power, so if it were to happen because of the latter, why do we need to see the former? Because his mother needed to die so he could pursue more power? Whatever happened to just plain greed? Why does the character need to be "saved" from the responsibility of turning evil? He can't fall because he liked the power he had with the Light Side, felt frustrated, and felt more power with the Dark? In doing so, the character would be making his own choices independent of any factors that take responsibility off of him. Now there is something to blame for the character's fall, rather than simply placing it on the character himself.

 

BEcause lust for power comes from fear.

 

"Darth Vader represents the evil in us all"

You're misrepresenting what I am saying.

Anakin Skywalker/Darth Vader is a representation of what WE could become if we allow our emotions to control us and make the wrong decisions.

AS/DV is not the evil within us, he IS us, just as Luke is us.
The point is we are seeing a different kind of Hero's Journey in the PT, one where the Hero fails and becomes a Villain.
Unlike the OT which is showing us the conventional Hero's Journey which leads to the Hero succeeding and making the right choice.

 

Unfortunately, with Anakin being wasted as a nine year old, we never got to see him as a hero (that we can take seriously), so we jump from Anakin developing, to already going off the deep end, then fall. How could he be a "fallen hero" if he was never a hero in the first place? We don't see him making "right choices" before making the wrong choices, since his judgement was undermined due to the fact he was a child. If this is the "Hero's Journey," it's failed miserably because there is no heroism to contrast the evil that he will become.

"But he was supposed to be innocent." Yes, well a virtuous hero can capture that innocence as well if he is shown to believe there is good out there and is yet to feel evil. It is simplistic to think only a child can convey that notion.

 

Anakin's journey so far is on par with Luke. And we still have episode 3.

 

From what I have seen thus far in the prequels I cant say Annie is believable in convincing me that HE will transform into Vader. Hints were vague or none-existent in ep1 and in EP2 he gives Padme a look she didnt like then slaughtered a village of Sandmen to make up.

Havnt seen Vader in him yet. In the words of Luke "There is still good in him." we would need another trilogy for it to unfold and make sense.

 

I have no trouble seeing the hero in Anakin in both TPM and AOTC. I see the seeds for his ultimate fall from grace. It's all pretty compelling to me.

If you guys can't take him at face value, then I can understand why you guys feel things need to be changed.

It's just that TPM is what it is. It won't change, at least not in the radical ways some of you seem to require.

It's too bad some of you guys won't change your point of view instead.

 

It's too bad some of you guys won't change your point of view instead.

I think the prob. is that most of those who can't take it, are those who don't accept the way GL is doing it. However, many things will change come Ep. III.

You could say "the book" is still being completed and it takes the full book to realize what its all about.

Example, some people find a book in a chapter has spots here and there of incredulity, but the slow parts seem to make things lag, you could say there could be a sense of indifference what's happened so far.

However it is only near the climax the full picture comes. Yes, there'll be those who won't like it, but overall the balance will appear, then drift then starts coming in.

What Im saying is, when the "book" is finally completed, it will become really compelling reading. Repeat reading.

All what is needed is time.

Then again, I maybe spewing nonsense.

Heck, who cares. I love it

Edit: I even had time to edit this

 

But regardless of any continuity EP3 may bring, I will still not be able to sit through the podrace in Ep1 without falling sound asleep, roaring louder than Sebulba's engines.

 

Narcolepsy?

 

No, boredom.

 

I really liked the podrace at first. But now it just seems to go on and on forever. It still looks nice.

The loss of Shmi feuls Anakin's desire for more power, and gives us a chance to sympathise with him while understanding what he does to the Tusken's is wrong.
- I agree (although I didn't really sympatise with him), but Anakin being angry and frustrated because of Shmi should not be too important for his fall.
If it's just one thing it's fine, but if he turns to the Dark Side because of him missing his mother or something....no way.
That's what I mean. There needs to be a good reason for his turn. The troubles in his youth should (imo) only be part of the whole picture.

And Darth Vader had that kind of power. He was not shackled by those types of laws once he chose the darkside.
- Good point. And that's a better reason to turn to the dark side than just wanting to stop people from dying, or just because he's angry that he couldn't be with his mom.
Anakin always was special and he always wanted more. All the psychological stuff aside, that's what it's about. All the other stuff is just part of Anakin's 'journey' to get there. That's how I see it anyway. Maybe Lucas doesn't. We'll have to wait and see.

Wow, what a predictable retort *rolls eyes*
- It was all too easy
In real life people can go bad, sure. But I think Anakin is a poor example. He's not real, not realistic.
Even when I regard him as a symbolic character (with the whole mythology stuff and deeper meanings) it still doesn't work - because I've never liked the character.
He was a little annoying little kid in TPM, and he is a big annoying creepy jerk in AOTC. So he simply doesn't connect with me at all. That's a big problem.

I think not only is it important to see how someone can avoid evil, but how someone...anyone can become evil themselves.
- That's true, but as I said, I don't see it that way with Anakin in the prequels. Anakin is not anyone. He's the chosen one; he's special; he knows he's special; and everybody treats him as special. He's not like everyone at all.

From TPM and AOTC I have no idea what goes on inside Anakin's head except his lust for power and for Padmé.
Even before Shmi's death he already wanted more and more (but Master Obi-Wan would not let him move on...). So there isn't much of a 'how'. More like 'look: he's going to be evil one day'.

So far Anakin seems more like an unstable person who needs (better) guidance and maybe therapy.
I guess Obi-Wan really screwed up, but that doesn't make me like Anakin's character any more.

Look, it's easy to say that we should just accept what Lucas does.
Of course we should accept it. It's not like any of us are going to secure the rights to Star Wars and do a remake anytime soon
Doesn't mean we have to think it's all that great.

I guess we all see it different.
Maybe we should concentrate more on the topic of this thread instead of going on about one aspect of one suggested change and going around in circles

Another way to improve TPM: More interaction between Obi-Wan, Anakin, and Padmé.

 

I still think the podrace is interesting and fun. I also think the DVD version makes things slightly easier to follow and establishes more of Anakin's abilities as being extraordinary.

One major way I would improve TPM would be a revision of the screenplay. I think the dialogue just needs tweaking. Also I would alter Jar Jar's character. He is a good character and even funny a lot of the times but there are just too many places where he goes over the line.

Lastly even though it is minor, I would add back in the Farewell to Jira scene starting just after they leave Jira's stand so we can see why Anakin and Qui-Gon are running.